http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm...s.quirkygaffes

In article , Lazarus Long
wrote:

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm...s.quirkygaffes

"We were just following orders!"

How sad.

djb

--
"I'm a man, but I can change... If I have to... I guess." -- Red Green

How do you mistake a 500 year old Oak tree for a 5 year old Ash?

I understand that another group came the next day and only found the 500
year Oak as the 5 year old Ash was taken down the previous day and the Oak
was the only one left. BUT the first sentence said that,
German council employees mistakenly felled one of the country's most famous
trees after mistaking it for a five-year-old ash.

Again I ask, how do you mistake a 500 year old tree for a 5 year old tree?




"Lazarus Long" wrote in message
...

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm...s.quirkygaffes

"Leon" wrote in message

Again I ask, how do you mistake a 500 year old tree for a 5 year old tree?


Easy. You just equip a few high school dropouts with a chainsaw.

Florida voters?

"Leon" wrote in message
m...
How do you mistake a 500 year old Oak tree for a 5 year old Ash?

Again I ask, how do you mistake a 500 year old tree for a 5 year old tree?

George responds:


Florida voters?

"Leon" wrote in message
om...
How do you mistake a 500 year old Oak tree for a 5 year old Ash?

Again I ask, how do you mistake a 500 year old tree for a 5 year old tree?

In Germany?

Charlie Self
"If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our
institutions, great is our sin." Charles Darwin

In article ,
Leon wrote:
How do you mistake a 500 year old Oak tree for a 5 year old Ash?

I understand that another group came the next day and only found the 500
year Oak as the 5 year old Ash was taken down the previous day and the Oak
was the only one left. BUT the first sentence said that,
German council employees mistakenly felled one of the country's most famous
trees after mistaking it for a five-year-old ash.

Again I ask, how do you mistake a 500 year old tree for a 5 year old tree?


In all seriousness, probably because they WEREN'T _TOLD_ it was a "5-year-old
ash" that they were to remove



The work order quite likely read something along the lines of
"go to [location] and remove the marked tree."

They get there, and there is _only_one_ tree -- well it's "obvious" that that's
the right tree, isn't it? wry grin

"Robert Bonomi" wrote in message
rvers.com...


In all seriousness, probably because they WEREN'T _TOLD_ it was a
"5-year-old
ash" that they were to remove

You are making an assumption here. It was specifically stated that the they
mistook it as a 5 year old Ash.

In article , Leon
wrote:

You are making an assumption here. It was specifically stated that the they
mistook it as a 5 year old Ash.

They abviously don't know their ash from a hole in the ground...

djb

--
"I'm a man, but I can change... If I have to... I guess." -- Red Green

Leon wrote:

"Robert Bonomi" wrote in message
rvers.com...

In all seriousness, probably because they WEREN'T _TOLD_ it was a
"5-year-old

ash" that they were to remove

You are making an assumption here. It was specifically stated that the they
mistook it as a 5 year old Ash.

Robert is, I think, quite correct that they *probably* weren't
actually told what we've heard they were told. Note the emphasis,
because this is all just about probabilities, and opinions, unless
one of us was there...

(And thinking it's more likely that it happened exactly as
stated is putting much more credibility and accuracy into the
media than is reasonable.)

-Peter

"Peter Hansen" wrote in message
...
Robert is, I think, quite correct that they *probably* weren't
actually told what we've heard they were told. Note the emphasis,
because this is all just about probabilities, and opinions, unless
one of us was there...

(And thinking it's more likely that it happened exactly as
stated is putting much more credibility and accuracy into the
media than is reasonable.)


And I being a reasonable thinker would agree that they went to cut a tree
down and there was only one to cut down. But then again, this was a one of
the country's most "FAMOUS" trees and one would also assume that it would be
a good idea to double check before cutting down a
Famous tree.

assholes

"Lazarus Long" wrote in message
...

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm...rkies.quirkyga
ffes

In article ,
Leon wrote:

"Robert Bonomi" wrote in message
ervers.com...


In all seriousness, probably because they WEREN'T _TOLD_ it was a
"5-year-old
ash" that they were to remove

You are making an assumption here.

Of course I am. I even *said*so*. That's what the word "probably" means,
when used in the context of supposed causative events.

It was specifically stated that the they
mistook it as a 5 year old Ash.

FALSE TO FACT. It was _not_ so stated.

The lead paragraph of the story constitutes an 'editorial comment' by the
author of the story. It is 'descriptive' of the events that occurred, it
is _not_ a 'statement of fact' regarding HOW THINGS HAPPENED.

Tree A was, effectively, "mistaken" for tree B, yes. Although tree B was
no longer present at the time of the mistake.

Absent seeing the *ACTUAL*INSTRUCTIONS* given to the workers, one cannot
know what information they had to identify the tree they were supposed to
remove.

You have to read the story a little more critically.

The _facts_ one can glean from the reportage:
1) the 'famous' 500-year old oak tree existed
2) an "five year old ash" tree growing nearby was getting in the way
3) a decision was made by the council to have the 'offending' tree removed
4) a crew was dispatched to do just that. And they did so.
5) a second crew was dispatched, the next day -- presumably the result of
a scheduling error -- and removed the *ONLY*TREE* to be found.
6) This second tree was *not* supposed to be removed.
7) The oak, after being felled, was cut into firewood-size pieces.
END OF FACTS

_What_ the instructions to the crews were, is *not* specified. HOW they
were to identify the tree to be removed is *NOT* specified.

Tree removal crews -- if this _was_ a crew 'dedicated' to that purpose, and
if it was just a 'general maintenance' crew, the lack of 'relevant' knowledge
is even more likely -- are *NOT* trained in identifying the age, or the species
of a tree. They're told "thus-and-such tree is in the way, remove it".
Usually all they have is a location, and *MAYBE* a 'mark' that _somebody_else_
put there to identify the particular tree as 'the one to be removed', *IF*
there is ambiguity (i.e. if there is more than one tree there. You look
for the mark if there is any question about "which tree" is to be removed.
when there is _only_one_ tree at the specified location,

In this case, when the 2nd crew showed up, there was _only_one_tree_, there
was little reason for them to suspect that there 'had been' more than one
tree at the location, or that they should have been looking for a 'marked'
tree among multiple trees.


I have, myself, seen a *LOT* (easily 500+) of similar work-orders -- admittedly
*not* from this town in Germany. Of the ones I _have_ seen, none of them
specified the age, nor species of the tree to be removed. The orders to
the removal crew read: "Go to _such-and-such location_, remove the _N_ marked
tree(s)."

Note: You'd think anybody with half-a-brain would be able to recognize a dying
Elm tree, but they still spray-painted a 2-foot plus 'mark' on the tree
to identify it to the crews. And, on occasion, even -that- was insufficient.
In one case, a dying (but *unmarked*) ironwood was removed, while the (early
stages, *marked) diseased elm was left standing.

In article ,
Peter Hansen wrote:
Leon wrote:

"Robert Bonomi" wrote in message
rvers.com...

In all seriousness, probably because they WEREN'T _TOLD_ it was a
"5-year-old

ash" that they were to remove

You are making an assumption here. It was specifically stated that the they
mistook it as a 5 year old Ash.

Robert is, I think, quite correct that they *probably* weren't
actually told what we've heard they were told. Note the emphasis,
because this is all just about probabilities, and opinions, unless
one of us was there...

(And thinking it's more likely that it happened exactly as
stated is putting much more credibility and accuracy into the
media than is reasonable.)

The reportage looked entirely credible to me. As long as you read it
_carefully_. A description of 'what happened' is not indicative of _how_ it
came to happen. Tree 'A' _was_ mistaken for tree 'B' (which was no longer
there). *HOW* the mis-identification happened, and _what_ identification
information was available to those who made the mistake is *NOT* specified.

It's easy to 'read into' the "description" of trees A and B, that _that_
*was* the identifying information available to those who made the mistake;
but such an 'assumption' is *unjustified*.

If the removal crew _had_ been given the description of a '5 year old ash',
*and* the reporter knew that for a fact, the story line would have been
much more along the lines of "the crew, having been told to remove a 5 year
old ash, removed a 400 year old oak instead".

The actual language in the story conveys the reporter's _lack_of_knowledge_
of the *causative* events, while accurately describing the _results_ of
the actions.

The story _is_ lacking in 'depth', as far as "how" the screw-up came to
pass -- _why_ did the 2nd crew get sent? _what_ were they told? etc.,
etc.

However, what _is_ there, looks to be an *accurate* description of the
facts of the occurrence. Far higher quality reportage than is the norm in
the U.S., today. wry grin

"Leon" wrote in message

And I being a reasonable thinker would agree that they went to cut a tree
down and there was only one to cut down. But then again, this was a one
of
the country's most "FAMOUS" trees and one would also assume that it would
be
a good idea to double check before cutting down a
Famous tree.



If it was a famous tree and it was cordned off or marked with a sign, I
might agree. Take a couple of numbsculls with a chainsaw any any tree is
fair game. Especially if it is the only tree.

Leon, I can assure you that there are many people in this world that would
have cut that tree down with no hesitation and no forethought. I have a
couple of people at work that would do it. If you told them to go out back
and take a big pile of dirt and fill in the hole, they would start digging
at Mount McKinley to fill in the Grand Canyon with no thought of the
consequences.
Ed

http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 22:57:28 +0000,
(Robert Bonomi) wrote:


The actual language in the story conveys the reporter's _lack_of_knowledge_
of the *causative* events, while accurately describing the _results_ of
the actions.

The story _is_ lacking in 'depth', as far as "how" the screw-up came to
pass -- _why_ did the 2nd crew get sent? _what_ were they told? etc.,
etc.

However, what _is_ there, looks to be an *accurate* description of the
facts of the occurrence. Far higher quality reportage than is the norm in
the U.S., today. wry grin


If one peruses the other stories on that web site, the content is
similarly concise, lacking in detail in a manner similar to the oak
story.

Yes, if only for compounding the problem by making firewood. Perhaps
some local turners could make something.

On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 22:14:48 GMT, "Jim & Sharon"
wrote:

assholes

"Lazarus Long" wrote in message
.. .

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm...rkies.quirkyga
ffes

In article ,
"Leon" wrote:

"Peter Hansen" wrote in message
...
Robert is, I think, quite correct that they *probably* weren't
actually told what we've heard they were told. Note the emphasis,
because this is all just about probabilities, and opinions, unless
one of us was there...

(And thinking it's more likely that it happened exactly as
stated is putting much more credibility and accuracy into the
media than is reasonable.)


And I being a reasonable thinker would agree that they went to cut a tree
down and there was only one to cut down. But then again, this was a one of
the country's most "FAMOUS" trees and one would also assume that it would be
a good idea to double check before cutting down a
Famous tree.

at minimum wage you are not payed to think:-)
but seriously, in a job like that I highly doubt they are encouraged to
ask questions.

Time you revisited your qualifications as a human being. These include
respect for work itself, not the paycheck, and the obligation to do it
right, above all.

Come to think, you're anything but unique....

"Reyd" wrote in message
...
at minimum wage you are not payed to think:-)
but seriously, in a job like that I highly doubt they are encouraged to
ask questions.

Then there are the remarkably detailed work orders like the Telco people
arriving to install a special circuit with a printout some seven feet in
length giving the characteristics of every wire from the original switch to
the current location. The installer generally wads it up carefully, pulls
out his handset, and says "now what is it exactly you want?"

"Robert Bonomi" wrote in message
ervers.com...


I have, myself, seen a *LOT* (easily 500+) of similar work-orders --
admittedly
*not* from this town in Germany. Of the ones I _have_ seen, none of them
specified the age, nor species of the tree to be removed. The orders to
the removal crew read: "Go to _such-and-such location_, remove the _N_
marked
tree(s)."

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 07:41:28 -0400, "George" george@least wrote:

The installer generally wads it up carefully, pulls
out his handset, and says "now what is it exactly you want?"


That's because once the installer is at your premise, all he cares
about is where you would like the jack. G

He often needs at least the last two pages of that work order for
cable makeup, doubler (on some xDSL T's), crossbox location and
assignments, and smart jack type and options. He needed that before
you even knew he was coming.

Page one may contain data as to what tests he needs to run from your
premise to the far end at turn up. The information for the other end
provides information for him to set up his test set(s), to properly
condition the other end for the tests. You just don't get to see it
used, so in your narrow view it seems like wasted paper.

When things don't go as planned, the whole seven feet of paper can be
a great resource. Many telcos have tried, on several occasions, not
giving all the information to the technicians. Instead providing a
filtered document listing only "needed" data. It doesn't work very
well.

Barry

"German council employees mistakenly felled one of the country's most famous
trees after mistaking it for a five-year-old ash."
Perfect thing to read at the end of a long
day full of bad news. I take the loss of
trees almost personally after slowly
going bald while watching all the Dutch
Elms disappear from the neighborhood.

"George" george@least wrote in message
...
Time you revisited your qualifications as a human being. These include
respect for work itself, not the paycheck, and the obligation to do it
right, above all.


Time you should visit real life. Many people work for only one reason --
to make enough money to buy drugs or beer. They don't give a damn about the
quality of work they do or who gets hurt if they make crap.

A few more people work to buy food and a shabby room with a TV to live in.
Still more work just until they can collect a SS check. Hell, there are
some that don't even work and just want the welfare check.

People of this sort exist everywhere and are in every age bracket. Nothing
you can say or do is going to convince them otherwise. Give them a chainsaw
and they don't give a damn about 500 year old oak tree either.

I'm glad you like the work you do and take pride in accomplishing something.
Many of us do, but there are always going to be the others.
Ed

http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
news

If it was a famous tree and it was cordned off or marked with a sign, I
might agree. Take a couple of numbsculls with a chainsaw any any tree is
fair game. Especially if it is the only tree.

It was indeed described as a Famous tree.

"Reyd" wrote in message news:Reyd-

at minimum wage you are not payed to think:-)
but seriously, in a job like that I highly doubt they are encouraged to
ask


I can honestly say that I have been fortunate enough to have never worked
with anyone that dumb.

In article , bub209
@aol.com says...
.... snip
day full of bad news. I take the loss of
trees almost personally after slowly
going bald while watching all the Dutch
Elms disappear from the neighborhood.


... you trying to say there is a direct correlation between those two
events?

Yep, that tree sure is ruining the view....look how big it is.. We better
get to work, I can't believe they only gave us 1 day for this job.



"Lazarus Long" wrote in message
...

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm...s.quirkygaffes

"Wayne K." wrote in message
...
Yep, that tree sure is ruining the view....look how big it is.. We better
get to work, I can't believe they only gave us 1 day for this job.


Uh huh... Probably had to take extra time to remove the guard rails also.

In article ,
says...

"Wayne K." wrote in message
...
Yep, that tree sure is ruining the view....look how big it is.. We better
get to work, I can't believe they only gave us 1 day for this job.


Uh huh... Probably had to take extra time to remove the guard rails also.




Yeah, and I'll bet the brass plaque saying something on the order of
"Village Famous Tree" really screwed up a couple of saw chains before
they finally got through it.

Wayne K writes:

Yep, that tree sure is ruining the view....look how big it is.. We better
get to work, I can't believe they only gave us 1 day for this job.



Yup. That mentality really does exist. Many years ago, when my wife and I first
married, I discovered that her ex ran over small trees or cut down larger ones
because they interfered with straight progress of the lawn mower.

We planted about 65 trees in the first 2-3 years we were married.

Charlie Self
"Abstainer: a weak person who yields to the temptation of denying himself a
pleasure." Ambrose Bierce

... you trying to say there is a direct correlation between those two
events?
No, I didn't get Dutch Elm bugs in
my scalp, but
If I ever wrote a novel, those two bittersweet events would be tied together.
In 1960 when I moved to the Chicago
suburbs all the streets in my neighbor-
hood were the floors of magnificent 60 foot
gothic archways created by the elms;
there were at least a couple of mature
trees on the parkway of each house.
By 1968 as my hairline began to
recede the trees were being decimated.
Two parallel events, my way of getting
some humor out of it. Maybe if I'd
started using some Rogaine, the trees
would have come back.

In article , bub209
@aol.com says...
... you trying to say there is a direct correlation between those two
events?
No, I didn't get Dutch Elm bugs in
my scalp, but
If I ever wrote a novel, those two bittersweet events would be tied together.
In 1960 when I moved to the Chicago
suburbs all the streets in my neighbor-
hood were the floors of magnificent 60 foot
gothic archways created by the elms;
there were at least a couple of mature
trees on the parkway of each house.
By 1968 as my hairline began to
recede the trees were being decimated.
Two parallel events, my way of getting
some humor out of it. Maybe if I'd
started using some Rogaine, the trees
would have come back.

:-) Between the two of us, maybe we could revive the elms and the
American Chestnut if we started using Rogaine.

Mark & Juanita wrote:
says...
sMaybe if I'd
started using some Rogaine, the trees
would have come back.

:-) Between the two of us, maybe we could revive the elms and the
American Chestnut if we started using Rogaine.

If that's what it takes, count me in too.

Dave in Fairfax
--
reply-to doesn't work
use:
daveldr at att dot net
American Association of Woodturners
http://www.woodturner.org
Capital Area Woodturners
http://www.capwoodturners.org/