Beginner question warning

I'm building a shelf unit. It's pretty simple, basically a 5' wide x
13" high x 12" D box that I'll be hanging over a desk. Besides the two
"end" upright pieces, there are two other "dividers", so it's roughly
this shape:

________
| | | |
--------------

(imagine that the top and bottom touch the four upright pieces).

It's all made of oak 3/4" ply, dado joints, glued and screwed. Now
I've made a face frame for it from 1x2 oak. It is made of six pieces,
the same shape as the front of the unit, except that it extends
outward 3/4" in all directions. I used a router to make "half-lap"
joints (is that the right term?) between the uprights and the
horizontal pieces. I haven't fastened the frame pieces to each other,
nor to the main unit yet.

I'm thinking of gluing up the face frame first, while it is dry
clamped to the main unit to ensure that it will fit the "shape"
correctly. My first question is this: Do I need some sort of fastener
(nails, dowels, whatever) at the vertices of the face frame, or will
glue alone hold it together adequately? If I do need a fastener, can I
use tiny brads from the back?

Next, how do I fasten the face frame to the main unit? I don't have a
biscuit joiner, and I don't think I'll be buying one. I do have at
least 10 clamps that are long enough to hold the face frame on while
gluing. So I could use glue and finish nails, then fill the holes
with... well, what would you use?

I considered using metal angle and screws to attach the frame, since
the frame overlaps the main unit on all sides. It would allow me not
to have any holes in the front of the frame. That would work, of
course and wouldn't be seen except by very curious people , but it
feels wrong somehow.

If I was a much more precise guy I suppose I could use dowels or pins
of some kind between the back of the frame and the main unit, which
wouldn't come through the front of the frame. Lining that up seems a
little iffy though.

So now that I've demonstrated my ignorance, any suggestions?

Greg Guarino

Pocket screws work well. Tom

Glue should be enough since you are using lap joints. Many of us just butt
them together with glue and pocket screws.
I like to attach the face frame with a finish nailer. Finish nails will
work if you don't have a nailer. I just fill the holes.

"Greg Guarino" wrote in message

Next, how do I fasten the face frame to the main unit? I don't have a
biscuit joiner, and I don't think I'll be buying one. I do have at
least 10 clamps that are long enough to hold the face frame on while
gluing. So I could use glue and finish nails, then fill the holes
with... well, what would you use?

I use a blind nailer to fasten face frames. Basically, it raises a sliver of
wood, a nail is hit home and countersunk and then the sliver of wood is
glued back in place. Very easy, very clean.With a little practice, it makes
the attachment point virtually invisible. LV recommends fish glue, but my
preference is white carpenter's glue.

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...83&cat=1,41182

If you do use this method, I suggest that with hardwood, a slightly
undersized hole be drilled in the hardwood to permit easier insertion of the
nail. It's a bummer when you're doing a lot of hammering to bang the nail
home and you deflect off the nail crushing a portion of your face frame.
g

Upscale wrote:
I use a blind nailer to fasten face frames. Basically, it raises a sliver of
wood, a nail is hit home and countersunk and then the sliver of wood is
glued back in place. Very easy, very clean.With a little practice, it makes
the attachment point virtually invisible. LV recommends fish glue, but my
preference is white carpenter's glue.

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...83&cat=1,41182

If you do use this method, I suggest that with hardwood, a slightly
undersized hole be drilled in the hardwood to permit easier insertion of the
nail. It's a bummer when you're doing a lot of hammering to bang the nail
home and you deflect off the nail crushing a portion of your face frame.
g

I've contemplated that very tool, but the product description warns not
to use it in brittle woods like cherry. Unfortunately, this is mostly
what I work with. Have you ever used it on cherry, and if so, how did
it do for you?

TIA.

Greg Guarino wrote:

Next, how do I fasten the face frame to the main unit? I don't have a
biscuit joiner, and I don't think I'll be buying one. I do have at
least 10 clamps that are long enough to hold the face frame on while
gluing. So I could use glue and finish nails, then fill the holes
with... well, what would you use?

Just glue it on. If you feel that you just *have* to have some sort of
mechanical fastener as well (you don't), either nail it through a raised
sliver (glue down sliver after) or (my favorite) use countersunk screws
and plug the screw hole with face grain plugs. Very salty (nautical)


--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

On Fri, 21 Apr 2006 14:09:45 GMT, "dadiOH"
wrote:

Greg Guarino wrote:

Next, how do I fasten the face frame to the main unit? I don't have a
biscuit joiner, and I don't think I'll be buying one. I do have at
least 10 clamps that are long enough to hold the face frame on while
gluing. So I could use glue and finish nails, then fill the holes
with... well, what would you use?

Just glue it on. If you feel that you just *have* to have some sort of
mechanical fastener as well (you don't), either nail it through a raised
sliver (glue down sliver after) or (my favorite) use countersunk screws
and plug the screw hole with face grain plugs. Very salty (nautical)


Thanks for the reply. Your way sounds attractive; no holes to fill,
etc. But let me put a finer point on it. The oak 1x2 is reasonably
straight, but I'm sure there's a little warp to it. can get it
straight with the clamps while the glue dries, but will the glue hold
afterwards?

How many clamps do you think I'll need? There are 2 horizontal pieces,
5' long and four verticals, about 13" long. The frame will be glued up
as a unit beforehand. Would it be OK to clamp at each vertex (8
clamps) plus one in the middle of the center span of each horizontal?
Or do I need direct pressure in the center of each upright as well? I
believe I own 12 clamps long enough for this job.

Greg Guarino

"Greg Guarino" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 21 Apr 2006 14:09:45 GMT, "dadiOH"
wrote:

Greg Guarino wrote:

Next, how do I fasten the face frame to the main unit? I don't have
a
biscuit joiner, and I don't think I'll be buying one. I do have at
least 10 clamps that are long enough to hold the face frame on
while
gluing. So I could use glue and finish nails, then fill the holes
with... well, what would you use?

Just glue it on. If you feel that you just *have* to have some sort
of
mechanical fastener as well (you don't), either nail it through a
raised
sliver (glue down sliver after) or (my favorite) use countersunk
screws
and plug the screw hole with face grain plugs. Very salty (nautical)


Thanks for the reply. Your way sounds attractive; no holes to fill,
etc. But let me put a finer point on it. The oak 1x2 is reasonably
straight, but I'm sure there's a little warp to it. can get it
straight with the clamps while the glue dries, but will the glue hold
afterwards?

Yes assuming the thing isn't bent like a bow now. Even if it was, it
would probably hold.
______________

How many clamps do you think I'll need? There are 2 horizontal pieces,
5' long and four verticals, about 13" long. The frame will be glued up
as a unit beforehand. Would it be OK to clamp at each vertex (8
clamps) plus one in the middle of the center span of each horizontal?
Or do I need direct pressure in the center of each upright as well? I
believe I own 12 clamps long enough for this job.

I'd put 4-5 on each long piece, one on each vertical in center. If you
don't have enough clamps you can always loosely clamp 2x4s to the whole
works (one clamp each end) and use wedges between 2x4 and frame for
pressure. People always forget wedges, don't know why...very handy.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

damn, I was hoping for a more complete answer. It is a basic point of
woodworking, how to do this. Something like, you fasten the whole face
frame together first, then attach it after to the body as a single unit.
The way to ensure it is created correcrtly, place it upside down on a flat
desk, and check it by lifting the body onto it, remove and let set. Then it
is EASY to do dowels, OR use finish nails. I do not know if this is even
close. This is a consideration when building a built in cabinet with
drawers. I just built 8 drawers and mounted them into 3 uprights (2 x 4
high drawers). No face frame. If I did, it is easier to use false door
fronts screwd on after the box is made and hung. This allows planing, micro
positioning of the drawer faces w/r/t the face frame installed. Again.
don't know the procedure.

I think that if you went to the library (not suggesting it) and got a
handfull on books on the subject THIS would be clear. A little research
project on a specific point. I researched what I thought would be a good
book(s) on woodworking. I got my first one 1/2 price at LV. "Making Tables
and Chairs", bty Nick Engler. There is about 46 in a series, not a numbered
series, buyt each title covers a different subject. In Toronto, the over
100 libraries have nearly all of them. Each book is about 120 pages, on a
specific topic, gluing and clamping,. Yes there is more complete info on
each topic, but as is, 46x120 = 5520 pages, two Machinery's Handbooks! It
is also the best of information. Alll points important. All the good stuff
you need to know. No crap. Learn tonnes! Read a set of ww info like this,
bit by this, and you don't have to ask simple Q's like this. Although not
1/100th as qualified to answer, you'll probably be 10x more likely to know
the right answer.

Open the links with the 47 quantity beside it, and look at the titles.
Hardcover, or soft. Matching size and cover design and covers. Besides the
title each of the 47 also says "The Workshop Companion", and "Techniques For
Better Woodworking".



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oh, the site,
http://hip.tpl.toronto.on.ca/ipac20/ipac.jsp?session=N145641A1206F.44513&menu=search&a spect=subtab25&npp=25&ipp=20&spp=20&profile=rs&ri= &index=AA&term=engler%2C+nick&aspect=subtab25&x=3& y=8#focus



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