Loose Tenon mortise and tenon joinery is becoming more accessible to,
though not necessarily affordable for, the amateur woodworker thanks
to several products that have become available over the last several
years. Right now, I'm aware of three router based - non CNC - jigs /
tools that will cut end grain mortises - the TREND M&T JIG, the Leigh
FMT jig and the MultiRouter - along with the new Festool DOMINO that's
not router based.

What I hope to do is show, with simple annotated diagrams, the
procedure
for doing end grain mortises with each jig / tool and describe the
strenghths and weaknesses (if any) of the available jigs / tools when
it comes to this specific application.

I know the procedure for cutting mortises in end grain using the TREND
M&T JIG and the Festool DOMINO. I've never used the Leigh FMT jig or
the MultiRouter. I'm working on the Leigh FMT jig first, trying to
under-
stand how it works and the procedure for using it - in real basic steps.

The goal is to provide info that can help other woodworkers, looking
into ways to make loose tenon M&T joinery part of their joints arsenal,
with their purchasing decision. I'll put the stuff up on my woodworking
site after "peer review" is completed and post the URL to it in
rec.woodworking.

I have NO connection or affiliation with any of the jigs /tools makers
or sellers of any of the jigs / tool noted above, and paid the going
price
for the TREND M&T JIG and the DOMINO. - no freebies or discounts
to influence the evaluation. (When I got the DOMINO I gave the TREND
M&T JIG to a woodworker long on Woodworking Passion and Short on Cash.
If you have a tool or jig that's been replaced by a New AND Improved
one and don't feel like hasseling with selling or swapping it - find a
woodworker long on Woodworking Passion and Short On Cash and
make his/her day. What YOU get - priceless).

Attached is an illustration of the Leigh FMT procedure as I think it
works.
Need someone who HAS used the FMT - preferably successfully - to look
over the attachment and let me know if I've missed something significant
or got something wrong. Comments can be posted here under this
post's subject line, or to rec.woodworking using this post's subject
line
or e-mailed directly to me (my e-mail address is real, and the only one
I have - no HotMail or Yahoo drop outs).

Thanks for reading all this and hope to thank some of you for
helping out.

charlie b

Now that this post finally appeared, and I have looked at it, I believe that
everything that you have shown in your diagram for morticing on the FMT is
true except that it isn't necessary to mark the placement of the second
mortice (on the bottom) if it is going to be placed in the center of the
part. The FMT has a guide that you can lock in place to position parts at
the same XY location and the second mortice will come out in the correct
position without marking for it. If you wanted to place mortices off center
or mirror imaged from each other on each end it's a bit more involved but
you can avoid marking the follow on pieces if you use the FMT's top table
positioning capability to locate each of the 2 mortices.

For Mirror Image Morticing of both ends of a part.

1. You would have to mark the center positions of the mortices on both ends
of the first part.
2. Position the part so that it's face side is toward the FMT and the
mortice to be cut is left of the part's center.
3. Locate the part roughly centered in the FMT's XY table range, clamp the
part in position and position with the top end touching the crosshair piece
and the locating rail along the left edge of the part.
4. Position the FMT's XY table to align the crosshairs with the mortice
center marks on the part and lock the XY table in this position.
5. Set and lock the left end stop and the forward stop of the XY table.
6. Retract the Crosshair piece and cut this mortice.
7. Unclamp and rotate the part so the bottom end is now the top and it's
face is still toward the FMT. Position it against the side rail and clamp it
in place with the top end touching the crosshair piece.
6. Unlock and move the XY table to the right and position the crosshairs on
the center mark of the mortice. Now lock the XY table in position.
7. Set and lock the right and rear table stops.
8. Retract the crosshair piece and cut this mortice.

The FMT is now set up to make mirror positioned mortices on the next and
follow on parts without the need to mark the mortice positions.

1. Extend the crosshair piece, position and clamp the part against the
locating rail with it's face toward the FMT. Retract the crosshair piece
(now used only for a vertical stop)
2. Unlock and move the XY table to the left and front stops and lock it in
position.
3. Cut the mortice.
4. Unclamp and rotate the part keeping it's face side toward the FMT. Extend
the crosshair piece and position the part against the crosshair piece and
the side guide rail. Clamp the part in position and retract the crosshair
piece.
5. Unlock and move the XY table to the right and rear stops and lock it in
position.
6. Cut the mortice.
Done

Once the FMT has been set up it's easier to make mortices and then make the
matching tenons to fit them than it is to make just mortices and then make
floating tenons separately. The only time that I make floating tenon joints
now is when I want to make M&T joints at a significant angle to the grain,
such as when joining 45 degree mitered pieces. Since the tenons made on the
part would end up with significant cross grain and would not be very strong
I would make mortices in each piece and then cut a floating tenon from
straight grained stock to go between them.

It's really quite simple but a bit difficult to describe. Watching their
Demo DVD explains everything.
--
Charley


"charlieb" wrote in message
...
Loose Tenon mortise and tenon joinery is becoming more accessible to,
though not necessarily affordable for, the amateur woodworker thanks
to several products that have become available over the last several
years. Right now, I'm aware of three router based - non CNC - jigs /
tools that will cut end grain mortises - the TREND M&T JIG, the Leigh
FMT jig and the MultiRouter - along with the new Festool DOMINO that's
not router based.

What I hope to do is show, with simple annotated diagrams, the
procedure
for doing end grain mortises with each jig / tool and describe the
strenghths and weaknesses (if any) of the available jigs / tools when
it comes to this specific application.

I know the procedure for cutting mortises in end grain using the TREND
M&T JIG and the Festool DOMINO. I've never used the Leigh FMT jig or
the MultiRouter. I'm working on the Leigh FMT jig first, trying to
under-
stand how it works and the procedure for using it - in real basic steps.

The goal is to provide info that can help other woodworkers, looking
into ways to make loose tenon M&T joinery part of their joints arsenal,
with their purchasing decision. I'll put the stuff up on my woodworking
site after "peer review" is completed and post the URL to it in
rec.woodworking.

I have NO connection or affiliation with any of the jigs /tools makers
or sellers of any of the jigs / tool noted above, and paid the going
price
for the TREND M&T JIG and the DOMINO. - no freebies or discounts
to influence the evaluation. (When I got the DOMINO I gave the TREND
M&T JIG to a woodworker long on Woodworking Passion and Short on Cash.
If you have a tool or jig that's been replaced by a New AND Improved
one and don't feel like hasseling with selling or swapping it - find a
woodworker long on Woodworking Passion and Short On Cash and
make his/her day. What YOU get - priceless).

Attached is an illustration of the Leigh FMT procedure as I think it
works.
Need someone who HAS used the FMT - preferably successfully - to look
over the attachment and let me know if I've missed something significant
or got something wrong. Comments can be posted here under this
post's subject line, or to rec.woodworking using this post's subject
line
or e-mailed directly to me (my e-mail address is real, and the only one
I have - no HotMail or Yahoo drop outs).

Thanks for reading all this and hope to thank some of you for
helping out.

charlie b

Before I get to Charley's great response - note that in my earlier
attachment,
#8 has an error, The "back view" is wrong. The mortises should be
shown
at the front left corner of the part in that view.

Charley wrote:

snip

it isn't necessary to mark the placement of the second
mortice (on the bottom) if it is going to be placed in the center of the
part. The FMT has a guide that you can lock in place to position parts at
the same XY location and the second mortice will come out in the correct
position without marking for it. If you wanted to place mortices off center
or mirror imaged from each other on each end it's a bit more involved but
you can avoid marking the follow on pieces if you use the FMT's top table
positioning capability to locate each of the 2 mortices.

Ah - and there's "the rub" - the Devil in The Details. While
perfectly
centered mortises make using jigs a LOT easier, you don't need to
keep
track of parts orientation in the jig since things are symetric on
both X & Y, there are times when you need an "offset" mortise.
THAT's where things get a bit trickier - requiring that you mark the
mortise center on BOTH ends, another jig set up (which on the FMT
is quick and easy but you still have to do it) AND the need to pay
very close attention to parts orientation. I hate when I spend the
time to get the show face grain working together then blow an
orientation when doing the mortises on one part resulting in the
non show face showing. Despite the odds, when that happens,
the non show face has an ugly pitch pocket or the like right in
the middle of it

snip

Once the FMT has been set up it's easier to make mortices and then make the
matching tenons to fit them than it is to make just mortices and then make
floating tenons separately.

With traditional mortise and tenon joints, it's those damned tenons
that
complicate thing. You have to account for the length of the two
tenons.
And god forbid you don't cut all the tenons for all the parts that
are
supposed to be the same length BEFORE you change the depth of cut
on the router. I never seem to be able to reproduce a set up I
changed,
even 10 minutes ago.

The only time that I make floating tenon joints
now is when I want to make M&T joints at a significant angle to the grain,
such as when joining 45 degree mitered pieces. Since the tenons made on the
part would end up with significant cross grain and would not be very strong
I would make mortices in each piece and then cut a floating tenon from
straight grained stock to go between them.

I found angle tenons a bit tricky when using the TREND M&T JIG. The
layout
requires more time since the center of the mortise at the top of the
tenon
is not centered on the part - the bottom, at the shoulders, is.

It's really quite simple but a bit difficult to describe. Watching their
Demo DVD explains everything.

Will request the DVD - thanks for the info.

charlie b

Charlieb,

You could just re-orient the part in the FMT or whatever tool to cut a
mirror mortise, but then you would be referencing the position of the
mortises from opposite sides of the part, which is a basic no-no of
woodworking. To get accuracy I always pick a face side and then mark one
edge and one end on that face side with chalk. The face side and the marked
edges are where I derive all measurements from to machine that part. Working
from opposite edges or opposite faces will induce board thickness and
measurement errors and result in a poorly machined part that will require
all kinds of sanding and manual fitting adjustments. This will be true no
matter what kind of tool that you use to machine your parts, even a table
saw. I prefer to make my parts without these accumulating errors so that my
joints fit with little or no sanding, and that's why I always mark and
reference from the face side only. Many steps can be eliminated if you don't
follow this rule, but quality will suffer.

--
Charley


"charlieb" wrote in message
...
Before I get to Charley's great response - note that in my earlier
attachment,
#8 has an error, The "back view" is wrong. The mortises should be
shown
at the front left corner of the part in that view.

Charley wrote:

snip

it isn't necessary to mark the placement of the second
mortice (on the bottom) if it is going to be placed in the center of the
part. The FMT has a guide that you can lock in place to position parts
at
the same XY location and the second mortice will come out in the correct
position without marking for it. If you wanted to place mortices off
center
or mirror imaged from each other on each end it's a bit more involved
but
you can avoid marking the follow on pieces if you use the FMT's top
table
positioning capability to locate each of the 2 mortices.

Ah - and there's "the rub" - the Devil in The Details. While
perfectly
centered mortises make using jigs a LOT easier, you don't need to
keep
track of parts orientation in the jig since things are symetric on
both X & Y, there are times when you need an "offset" mortise.
THAT's where things get a bit trickier - requiring that you mark the
mortise center on BOTH ends, another jig set up (which on the FMT
is quick and easy but you still have to do it) AND the need to pay
very close attention to parts orientation. I hate when I spend the
time to get the show face grain working together then blow an
orientation when doing the mortises on one part resulting in the
non show face showing. Despite the odds, when that happens,
the non show face has an ugly pitch pocket or the like right in
the middle of it

snip

Once the FMT has been set up it's easier to make mortices and then make
the
matching tenons to fit them than it is to make just mortices and then
make
floating tenons separately.

With traditional mortise and tenon joints, it's those damned tenons
that
complicate thing. You have to account for the length of the two
tenons.
And god forbid you don't cut all the tenons for all the parts that
are
supposed to be the same length BEFORE you change the depth of cut
on the router. I never seem to be able to reproduce a set up I
changed,
even 10 minutes ago.

The only time that I make floating tenon joints
now is when I want to make M&T joints at a significant angle to the
grain,
such as when joining 45 degree mitered pieces. Since the tenons made on
the
part would end up with significant cross grain and would not be very
strong
I would make mortices in each piece and then cut a floating tenon from
straight grained stock to go between them.

I found angle tenons a bit tricky when using the TREND M&T JIG. The
layout
requires more time since the center of the mortise at the top of the
tenon
is not centered on the part - the bottom, at the shoulders, is.

It's really quite simple but a bit difficult to describe. Watching their
Demo DVD explains everything.

Will request the DVD - thanks for the info.

charlie b

Charlieb,

It's me again.

I didn't provide my thoughts about the Trend M&T jig when I responded
yesterday. I purchased one before I bought the FMT and used it for about 48
hours before deciding that it was unacceptable and took it back. I found
that figuring out which pieces to use to determine the movement of the
router to make the right sixe mortice and then changing it all to make a
tenon to fit the mortice that I had just cut was very frustrating. I had to
be very careful not to let the router move away from the template guide even
slightly or the tenon would be ruined. I also discovered that there was no
way to precisely adjust for the tightness of the joint. You just had to live
with whatever you got. The other thing that bothered me was how unstable the
whole assembly was. It was easy to distort the frame significantly if you
pushed the router a bit harder to keep it against the guides and this
distorting transfered to the joint being cut. Way too much hocus pocus and
Kentucky windage was required for me to get good joints. The guys that
demonstrated it at the shows aparently had hundreds of hours of experience
to get good joints, but after trying one myself and then going back and
watching another demonstration I realized that they didn't get tight joints
very often either. It made good mortices for floating tenons, but was
lacking when it came time to make mortices and then tenons to fit them.

I once watched a demonstration of a JDS Multi-router. It made great mortices
and tenons, but getting a tighter joint fit required switching to a slightly
oversized template to cut the matching tenon. They had over and under sized
templates that they switched to whenever it was needed. This helped get a
better fit, but there were only a few over and under sizes available, so
sometimes the result was either too loose or too tight with no ability for a
slightly tighter or looser adjustment. A similar cheaper design of the
multi-router exists. It's marketed by Woodworkers Supply. This one has many
plastic parts and no over/under sized templates. At a demonstration of this
one I caught the demonstrator wrapping the template follower with scotch
tape to adjust for joint tightness. It worked, but not very precisely, and
wore out after making only a few joints. I consider this one a hobby toy and
not a serious tool but it's price is almost as high as an FMT if you include
the templates.

--
Charley

"charlieb" wrote in message
...
Loose Tenon mortise and tenon joinery is becoming more accessible to,
though not necessarily affordable for, the amateur woodworker thanks
to several products that have become available over the last several
years. Right now, I'm aware of three router based - non CNC - jigs /
tools that will cut end grain mortises - the TREND M&T JIG, the Leigh
FMT jig and the MultiRouter - along with the new Festool DOMINO that's
not router based.

What I hope to do is show, with simple annotated diagrams, the
procedure
for doing end grain mortises with each jig / tool and describe the
strenghths and weaknesses (if any) of the available jigs / tools when
it comes to this specific application.

I know the procedure for cutting mortises in end grain using the TREND
M&T JIG and the Festool DOMINO. I've never used the Leigh FMT jig or
the MultiRouter. I'm working on the Leigh FMT jig first, trying to
under-
stand how it works and the procedure for using it - in real basic steps.

The goal is to provide info that can help other woodworkers, looking
into ways to make loose tenon M&T joinery part of their joints arsenal,
with their purchasing decision. I'll put the stuff up on my woodworking
site after "peer review" is completed and post the URL to it in
rec.woodworking.

I have NO connection or affiliation with any of the jigs /tools makers
or sellers of any of the jigs / tool noted above, and paid the going
price
for the TREND M&T JIG and the DOMINO. - no freebies or discounts
to influence the evaluation. (When I got the DOMINO I gave the TREND
M&T JIG to a woodworker long on Woodworking Passion and Short on Cash.
If you have a tool or jig that's been replaced by a New AND Improved
one and don't feel like hasseling with selling or swapping it - find a
woodworker long on Woodworking Passion and Short On Cash and
make his/her day. What YOU get - priceless).

Attached is an illustration of the Leigh FMT procedure as I think it
works.
Need someone who HAS used the FMT - preferably successfully - to look
over the attachment and let me know if I've missed something significant
or got something wrong. Comments can be posted here under this
post's subject line, or to rec.woodworking using this post's subject
line
or e-mailed directly to me (my e-mail address is real, and the only one
I have - no HotMail or Yahoo drop outs).

Thanks for reading all this and hope to thank some of you for
helping out.

charlie b

"Charley" wrote in message

I once watched a demonstration of a JDS Multi-router. It made great
mortices
and tenons, but getting a tighter joint fit required switching to a
slightly
oversized template to cut the matching tenon. They had over and under
sized
templates that they switched to whenever it was needed. This helped get a
better fit, but there were only a few over and under sizes available, so
sometimes the result was either too loose or too tight with no ability for
a
slightly tighter or looser adjustment.

Not exactly ... as with ANY router method/jig, sharpening a bit will change
the size of the routed mortise or tenon, as will using cheaper erratically
manufactured, damaged or excessively worn bits.

With the M-R, as with any router based "jig", template requirements are a
function of bit size.

The M-R has two tenon template sets, the standard set designed to be used
with precisely manufactured bits/endmills, and a master tenon template set
for odd/worn/sharpened bits.

The latter uses graduated "inserts", which allow you vary the size of the
tenon based on erratic bit sizes ... this is what you saw demonstrated.

Simply using the correct size bit, or endmill, precludes that necessity.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Ok, but then how do you adjust for the difference resulting from switching
from hardwood to softwood stock. It results in a change of fit of several
thousandths, changing a good fit to a too snug fit, even when using the same
brand new router bit. This is what I was referring to and I didn't see a way
of adjusting for it. Their templates increment in too large of a step to
account for this, at least in my opinion.

I'm not interested in debating this point. I just commented on what I saw.
My FMT allows for this kind of precise adjustment, without the need to buy
additional templates, and that's all that matters to me. I can get the same
fit with a new bit, or an old bit in hardwood or in softwood with repeatable
accuracy and without buying anything extra to make it work.

--
Charley

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
"Charley" wrote in message

I once watched a demonstration of a JDS Multi-router. It made great
mortices
and tenons, but getting a tighter joint fit required switching to a
slightly
oversized template to cut the matching tenon. They had over and under
sized
templates that they switched to whenever it was needed. This helped get
a
better fit, but there were only a few over and under sizes available, so
sometimes the result was either too loose or too tight with no ability
for
a
slightly tighter or looser adjustment.

Not exactly ... as with ANY router method/jig, sharpening a bit will
change
the size of the routed mortise or tenon, as will using cheaper erratically
manufactured, damaged or excessively worn bits.

With the M-R, as with any router based "jig", template requirements are a
function of bit size.

The M-R has two tenon template sets, the standard set designed to be used
with precisely manufactured bits/endmills, and a master tenon template set
for odd/worn/sharpened bits.

The latter uses graduated "inserts", which allow you vary the size of the
tenon based on erratic bit sizes ... this is what you saw demonstrated.

Simply using the correct size bit, or endmill, precludes that necessity.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Charley" wrote in message

I'm not interested in debating this point.

There is nothing to "debate" ... simply pointing out the facts of an
experienced M_R user, as you did with the FMT.

I just commented on what I saw.
My FMT allows for this kind of precise adjustment, without the need to buy
additional templates, and that's all that matters to me. I can get the
same
fit with a new bit, or an old bit in hardwood or in softwood with
repeatable
accuracy and without buying anything extra to make it work.

So can I, with the M-R ... but then I have more experience with it than just
seeing it demo'ed, just as you have more experience with the FMT ... even
though I have also seen it demo'ed.



--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Charley's observations about the TREND M&T JIG, and by extension
the Leigh FMT as well as the MultiRouter, and the difficulty in
doing
tenons where they're supposed to be - and the size you want for
the fit you're after - begs the question

WHY NOT GO WITH LOOSE TENON M&T JOINTS?

One router bit - and if it's +/- 0.005" - so what. The holes will be
the
same - and that's what's important. If you've got a planer - and bench
top planers that'll do the job, are available for $300 or less - mill
stock
to the bit diameter - whatever it is - and rip loose tenon stock to
width.
A pass or two with a block plane or even a sanding block on all for
edges
to chamfer them and you're ready to cut what ever length loose tenon
you need.. No worries about tenon shoulders either. AND you can make
the loose tenons in any wood you've got handy - or in the same wood
- or in a contrasting wood - if you want.

Of course, with any of the "router jigs"
a) you've got a dedicated router for it (OK - scratch that for the
TREND - but I think it's been ruled out - for tenon cutting
problems.
b) you've got to mark at least one mortise centerline-centerline
for each type of part in order to align the jig to it - and that's
if the mortise is layed out symetrically on two axis
or
if the mortise is offset from the centerline of the part's
thickness - then you have to mark the centerline-centerline
of BOTH ENDS of each type of part in order to align the jig
to it.

The more I reflect on the various ways to do loose tenon M&T
joints - the more I appreciate the DOMINO. I can plan what I
want to do - numerically - then - with NO LAYOUT - cut my mortises
where I want - with relatively (to the Leigh and MultiRouter) no
set up time.

Other than for the sheer fun of it, or for aesthetic reasons I
don't understand, I can't think of a reason for doing "real"
tenons - and I enjoy handcutting dovetails. Tenons - they aren't
even fun to do.

charlie b

charlieb wrote:
Other than for the sheer fun of it, or for aesthetic reasons I
don't understand, I can't think of a reason for doing "real"
tenons - and I enjoy handcutting dovetails. Tenons - they aren't
even fun to do.

Speak for yourself buddy! :-) I personally love cutting mortise and
tenon joints by hand. Of course, if I was going to quit my day job and
go into woodworking full time, I'd probably change my tune... :-)

--
See Nad. See Nad go. Go Nad!
To reply, eat the taco.

charlieb,

I agree with your attached comparison except for one point in the last part
of it and another point that you seem to have totally ignored.

I find that cutting both mortices AND MATCHING TENONS on the FMT to be both
fun and enjoyable. Maybe it's because I own an FMT, or maybe it's because
it's just so incredibly neat that I can make perfect mortices and then
perfect matching tenons with just one setup and one router bit. In other
words, I'm happy with my toy and I don't want your's. If your toy works good
for you, then there's nothing more to say.

Floating tenons are good joinery and relatively easy to do. In fact, that's
what I did for years before I got the FMT. I had built a great morticing
fixture out of wood for use with my router that let me put mortices almost
anywhere and almost any size. I made floating tenon stock with square edges
on my table saw and used them in the rounded mortices made with the router
because I found that the sides of the mortice/tenon joint were where the
real joint strength was. I let the open curved ends of the mortice become a
reservoir for the excess glue and I never had a joint failure using this
method of joinery. However, the setup took quite a bit longer than with the
FMT, and I couldn't get the precise fit that I wanted without custom making
my tenon stock. I justified the purchase of the FMT based on the overall
reduction of setup time and it's ability to make perfect fitting mortice and
tenon joints.

I have one question for you. Can you adjust the precise size of the Domino's
mortice or the tenon to make the fit between them a bit tighter? As I see
it, there is no capability in it's design to allow for this. This capability
is one of the main reasons that I bought the FMT, and I so far haven't seen
anything else on the market that can do this. As I see it, a Domino cuts one
size (thickness) mortice and the tenons that they provide are supposed to
fit properly into it, but there is no way to make any adjustment in their
tightness of fit. The glue just has to fill the void. This is one of the
problems that I had with every other jig that I tried before finding the
FMT, which does have a built-in dial to allow you to adjust for a precise
tightness of joint fit. Now I can make press fit M&T joints if I want to, or
I can set them for about .002" clearance to allow for a perfect glue joint.

Please, "I'm not trying to say that my way is better". It's just better for
me.

It's just the way that I found to make M&T joints that works great for me,
and I switched to it over 2 years before the Domino became available. If I
was making the same decision today I might be more interested in the Domino,
but I made my decision over 2 years ago and I'm still very happy with it. I
can't see that the Domino will do anything significantly better than what I
have now. In fact as I see it, it isn't as precise as the FMT, but it may be
a bit faster to set up.

You wanted comparison information from someone who owned an FMT and had
looked into a Multi-router and a Trend M&T jig and I tried to help you.
That's all. In fact, I'm now wondering why you are still comparing them,
after you have already made your big decision and bought the Domino. It's
almost like you aren't really sure that you made the right decision when you
bought it. Have you?

--
Charley


"charlieb" wrote in message
...
Charley's observations about the TREND M&T JIG, and by extension
the Leigh FMT as well as the MultiRouter, and the difficulty in
doing
tenons where they're supposed to be - and the size you want for
the fit you're after - begs the question

WHY NOT GO WITH LOOSE TENON M&T JOINTS?

One router bit - and if it's +/- 0.005" - so what. The holes will be
the
same - and that's what's important. If you've got a planer - and bench
top planers that'll do the job, are available for $300 or less - mill
stock
to the bit diameter - whatever it is - and rip loose tenon stock to
width.
A pass or two with a block plane or even a sanding block on all for
edges
to chamfer them and you're ready to cut what ever length loose tenon
you need.. No worries about tenon shoulders either. AND you can make
the loose tenons in any wood you've got handy - or in the same wood
- or in a contrasting wood - if you want.

Of course, with any of the "router jigs"
a) you've got a dedicated router for it (OK - scratch that for the
TREND - but I think it's been ruled out - for tenon cutting
problems.
b) you've got to mark at least one mortise centerline-centerline
for each type of part in order to align the jig to it - and that's
if the mortise is layed out symetrically on two axis
or
if the mortise is offset from the centerline of the part's
thickness - then you have to mark the centerline-centerline
of BOTH ENDS of each type of part in order to align the jig
to it.

The more I reflect on the various ways to do loose tenon M&T
joints - the more I appreciate the DOMINO. I can plan what I
want to do - numerically - then - with NO LAYOUT - cut my mortises
where I want - with relatively (to the Leigh and MultiRouter) no
set up time.

Other than for the sheer fun of it, or for aesthetic reasons I
don't understand, I can't think of a reason for doing "real"
tenons - and I enjoy handcutting dovetails. Tenons - they aren't
even fun to do.

charlie b

"Charley" wrote in message

You wanted comparison information from someone who owned an FMT and had
looked into a Multi-router and a Trend M&T jig and I tried to help you.
That's all. In fact, I'm now wondering why you are still comparing them,
after you have already made your big decision and bought the Domino. It's
almost like you aren't really sure that you made the right decision when
you
bought it. Have you?

It certainly appears to me that there is no doubt in his mind that what
works for him is the Domino.

I've been following Charlie's ruminations on this particular issue since,
IIRC, around 2003, which is about the time I started also looking for ways
to do "production runs" of compound angled joinery.

I looked hard at the FMT, was impressed with its precision, but was turned
off by the width limitation and the hassle of doing joinery in long
workpieces.

Sounds like Charlie made the right choice for him (and has done a hell of a
job giving providing EXCELLENT information for comparison purposes), the FMT
suits you, and I wouldn't trade my M-R for either ... exactly the way it's
supposed to work, eh?

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Swingman,

Yup. We buy what we think will do the best job for us, and it may not be
what someone else thinks will do best for him. Charlieb just seems to be
still trying to convince himself that he made the right choice, even after
spending the money for it. I think he made a good choice and it will serve
him well. He just needs get on with making sawdust and stop torturing
himself over whether he made a good decision or not. That's why there are so
many different tools on the market that do the same or similar jobs, and
those companies all seem to be making money. To each his own I guess.

I spent several years dreaming about a MultiRouter but could never quite
justify the cost. I've watched several live demos of it and it would sure
make M&T production easy, although, in my opinion, it isn't quite as precise
as what I was looking for. The FMT is great for repeatable very close
tolerance joints and a little slower when it comes to setup and production
runs. Although I have only seen video demonstrations of the Domino, I think
it may be faster than the FMT and the MultiRouter, but we've already made
our choices, haven't we.

Do you really need M&T joints that are bigger than 1/2 x 5" ? (the limit for
FMT) What do you make that requires larger joints than this? I've found
that I get serious cross grain gluing problems when I try make larger M&T
joints. Most of what I make is furniture related and the FMT does all that
I've needed to do so far (but I didn't throw out my old wooden morticing jig
yet-just in case). I've also used my FMT for some production runs of
plantation and exterior shutters, where it performed really well.

I have only had to cut tenons on the ends of a couple of excessively long
pieces with the FMT. For these few long pieces I needed to put tenons on
their ends, and I solved the problem by mounting the FMT to a deck railing,
letting the board hang off the edge of the deck, and I stood on the deck
behind the FMT while making the cuts. It worked out quite well.

--
Charley


"Swingman" wrote in message
...
"Charley" wrote in message

You wanted comparison information from someone who owned an FMT and had
looked into a Multi-router and a Trend M&T jig and I tried to help you.
That's all. In fact, I'm now wondering why you are still comparing them,
after you have already made your big decision and bought the Domino.
It's
almost like you aren't really sure that you made the right decision when
you
bought it. Have you?

It certainly appears to me that there is no doubt in his mind that what
works for him is the Domino.

I've been following Charlie's ruminations on this particular issue since,
IIRC, around 2003, which is about the time I started also looking for ways
to do "production runs" of compound angled joinery.

I looked hard at the FMT, was impressed with its precision, but was turned
off by the width limitation and the hassle of doing joinery in long
workpieces.

Sounds like Charlie made the right choice for him (and has done a hell of
a
job giving providing EXCELLENT information for comparison purposes), the
FMT
suits you, and I wouldn't trade my M-R for either ... exactly the way it's
supposed to work, eh?

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)