My server currently runs in the loft and I have a somewhat threadbare
telephone extension lead trailing up the stairs and through the loft
hatch which supplies my ADSL connection.

As our house is supplied via telegraph pole the main pair meets the
house at roof level and then comes down the front of the house before
coming in alongside the front door. I was wondering about merely
disconnecting the master socket and pulling the external cable back
through the wall before running it into the loft under the barge
boards. I can then run a slave socket back to the location of the
original socket by the front door.

It is frowned upon to relocate the master socket? I ask this as it
will of course be in the loft rather than merely moving it into a
different room.

Also does anyone know of a supplier of exterior grade telephone cable
(preferably black) that I can use to run the new slave socket back
down to old master socket location.

Regards,
Jason.

---
Replace nntp with my name to reply.

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Jason Arthurs wrote:

My server currently runs in the loft and I have a somewhat threadbare
telephone extension lead trailing up the stairs and through the loft
hatch which supplies my ADSL connection.

As our house is supplied via telegraph pole the main pair meets the
house at roof level and then comes down the front of the house before
coming in alongside the front door. I was wondering about merely
disconnecting the master socket and pulling the external cable back
through the wall before running it into the loft under the barge
boards. I can then run a slave socket back to the location of the
original socket by the front door.

It is frowned upon to relocate the master socket? I ask this as it
will of course be in the loft rather than merely moving it into a
different room.

Also does anyone know of a supplier of exterior grade telephone cable
(preferably black) that I can use to run the new slave socket back
down to old master socket location.

Regards,
Jason.

---
Replace nntp with my name to reply.


AIUI, it's illegal to mess with anything on BT's side of the master socket.
You'd probably get away with moving it locally - but into the loft . . .

If you ever have to call BT out to deal with a fault, they will need to get
at the master socket - since this is where their responsibility ends and
yours begins. They won't be best pleased at having to get into the loft -
and it will be pretty obvious that you have moved it!
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is Black Hole!

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Jason Arthurs wrote:

My server currently runs in the loft and I have a somewhat threadbare
telephone extension lead trailing up the stairs and through the loft
hatch which supplies my ADSL connection.

As our house is supplied via telegraph pole the main pair meets the
house at roof level and then comes down the front of the house before
coming in alongside the front door. I was wondering about merely
disconnecting the master socket and pulling the external cable back
through the wall before running it into the loft under the barge
boards. I can then run a slave socket back to the location of the
original socket by the front door.

It is frowned upon to relocate the master socket? I ask this as it
will of course be in the loft rather than merely moving it into a
different room.

Also does anyone know of a supplier of exterior grade telephone cable
(preferably black) that I can use to run the new slave socket back
down to old master socket location.

Regards,
Jason.

---
Replace nntp with my name to reply.


AIUI, it's illegal to mess with anything on BT's side of the master
socket.
You'd probably get away with moving it locally - but into the loft . . .

If you ever have to call BT out to deal with a fault, they will need to
get
at the master socket - since this is where their responsibility ends and
yours begins. They won't be best pleased at having to get into the loft -
and it will be pretty obvious that you have moved it!
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is Black Hole!


I have exactly the same situation. If the owner of the house is not allow
to relocate the socket their self is there a procedure whereby you can
request (for a fee) that BT relocate the socket for you. Again I would like
it in the loft for the ADSL router.

Regards,
Martin.

On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 18:47:34 +0000, Martin wrote:


"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Jason Arthurs wrote:

My server currently runs in the loft and I have a somewhat threadbare
telephone extension lead trailing up the stairs and through the loft
hatch which supplies my ADSL connection.

As our house is supplied via telegraph pole the main pair meets the
house at roof level and then comes down the front of the house before
coming in alongside the front door. I was wondering about merely
disconnecting the master socket and pulling the external cable back
through the wall before running it into the loft under the barge
boards. I can then run a slave socket back to the location of the
original socket by the front door.

It is frowned upon to relocate the master socket? I ask this as it
will of course be in the loft rather than merely moving it into a
different room.

Also does anyone know of a supplier of exterior grade telephone cable
(preferably black) that I can use to run the new slave socket back
down to old master socket location.

Regards,
Jason.

---
Replace nntp with my name to reply.


AIUI, it's illegal to mess with anything on BT's side of the master
socket.
You'd probably get away with moving it locally - but into the loft . . .

If you ever have to call BT out to deal with a fault, they will need to
get
at the master socket - since this is where their responsibility ends and
yours begins. They won't be best pleased at having to get into the loft -
and it will be pretty obvious that you have moved it!
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is Black Hole!


I have exactly the same situation. If the owner of the house is not allow
to relocate the socket their self is there a procedure whereby you can
request (for a fee) that BT relocate the socket for you. Again I would like
it in the loft for the ADSL router.

Why not run a slave extension into the loft from the existing without
moving the master. I doubt whther it would make any noticeable difference
to the bandwidth you get.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 18:47:34 -0000, Martin wrote:

I have exactly the same situation. If the owner of the house is not
allow to relocate the socket their self is there a procedure whereby
you can request (for a fee) that BT relocate the socket for you.

Yes, ring 'em up and ask. The price is in the online BT Price List
(somewhere). Moving socket at customer request OWTHE.

Again I would like it in the loft for the ADSL router.

H&S rules means that BT engineers should not go into lofts. They are
rather hazardous places, not to mention feet through ceilings etc...

However if access is via a proper loft ladder through a decent sized
hatch (2 to 3' min) into a roof space that is well lit and the floor
is securely boarded over for all of the access a BT chap needs and the
socket not tucked right down in the eaves then you can probably bribe
any engineer that visits with cups of tea and chocolate biscuits...

Asking an engineer to squeeze through a tiny trap perched on the top
of a rickity step ladder with a stair well to one side, cross the roof
space by treading only on ceiling joists covered by insulation to then
lie flat out on said insulation to reach the socket at arms length
aided only by a AA maglight just ain't going to happen.

You could of course just put the master socket in the corner of a
bedroom. B-)

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

In uk.d-i-y, Dave Liquorice wrote:

H&S rules means that BT engineers should not go into lofts. They are
rather hazardous places, not to mention feet through ceilings etc...

However if access is via a proper loft ladder through a decent sized
hatch (2 to 3' min) into a roof space that is well lit and the floor
is securely boarded over for all of the access a BT chap needs and the
socket not tucked right down in the eaves then you can probably bribe
any engineer that visits with cups of tea and chocolate biscuits...

Exactly my experience when getting an ISDN line put in at my previous
house: it made most sense to run through the loft close to where the
existing cable from the pole attached to the property, running from front
to back of house over to just above the corner of the bedroom where I
wanted the socket. So the day before the BT bod came, I went up a ladder
and put in a draw wire through a little hole in the soffit/eaves/whatever-
you-call-that-bit, and another from bedroom to loft. The loft had boarded
walkways and light. When the BT engineer came, I stared with the obligatory
tea & biscuits, then showed him the prepared route, and he was a very happy
bunny to have had the route worked out, draw wires prepared, and loft
timbers to drive cable clips into at speed rather than ever-so-careful
surface-running around doorframes and the like in the way they so often end
up doing. He put in the transition box from external-black to internal-white
at a handy point in the loft, and put the ISDN termination box at the
requested spot in the bedroom, with the BT cable coming down a handy-dandy
bit of trunking I'd provided. Job done to both parties' satisfaction...

Cheers, Stefek

"Jason Arthurs" wrote in message
...
My server currently runs in the loft and I have a somewhat threadbare
telephone extension lead trailing up the stairs and through the loft
hatch which supplies my ADSL connection.

As our house is supplied via telegraph pole the main pair meets the
house at roof level and then comes down the front of the house before
coming in alongside the front door. I was wondering about merely
disconnecting the master socket and pulling the external cable back
through the wall before running it into the loft under the barge
boards. I can then run a slave socket back to the location of the
original socket by the front door.

It is frowned upon to relocate the master socket? I ask this as it
will of course be in the loft rather than merely moving it into a
different room.

Also does anyone know of a supplier of exterior grade telephone cable
(preferably black) that I can use to run the new slave socket back
down to old master socket location.

Regards,
Jason.

---
Replace nntp with my name to reply.



You are not supposed to move the master socket yourself. BT will do it for a
fee.
What you are proposing makes good sense. However as a DIY job " Rules is
Rules" Or so the saying goes.

Richard.

"Richard" wrote in message
.



You are not supposed to move the master socket yourself. BT will do it for
a
fee.
What you are proposing makes good sense. However as a DIY job " Rules is
Rules" Or so the saying goes.

Richard.


If you have your repositioned master box fitted with a filter faceplate and
you take your ADSL connection from there you will not need any more filters
for any other phone equipment connected to the filtered output from the box.

Richard

"Richard" wrote in message
...

"Jason Arthurs" wrote in message
...
My server currently runs in the loft and I have a somewhat threadbare
telephone extension lead trailing up the stairs and through the loft
hatch which supplies my ADSL connection.

As our house is supplied via telegraph pole the main pair meets the
house at roof level and then comes down the front of the house before
coming in alongside the front door. I was wondering about merely
disconnecting the master socket and pulling the external cable back
through the wall before running it into the loft under the barge
boards. I can then run a slave socket back to the location of the
original socket by the front door.

It is frowned upon to relocate the master socket? I ask this as it
will of course be in the loft rather than merely moving it into a
different room.

Also does anyone know of a supplier of exterior grade telephone cable
(preferably black) that I can use to run the new slave socket back
down to old master socket location.

Regards,
Jason.

---
Replace nntp with my name to reply.



You are not supposed to move the master socket yourself. BT will do it for
a
fee.
What you are proposing makes good sense. However as a DIY job " Rules is
Rules" Or so the saying goes.

Richard.


In my house, BT connected the wires between their master socket and the
cable master socket and all the other cable sockets around the house and
then ripped out the incoming cable connection.

On 19/02/2004 Jason Arthurs opined:-
It is frowned upon to relocate the master socket? I ask this as it
will of course be in the loft rather than merely moving it into a
different room.

Strictly speaking you are not allowed to interfere with the master
socket or the wiring linking that to the pole. In practise, if you make
a reasonably competant job of it, then the BT engineer is very unlikely
to complain.

I moved our master socket into the loft, in fact the BT engineer
actually assisted me to do this when they were installing new cables
from the pole. He pushed the cable in from the outside, I pulled it
through and connected it up to a new master while he waited.

If you are certain you know what you are doing and feel absolutely
confident, then get on with it.... Just keep the phone cables well away
from any mains wiring.

--

Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.org

Harry Bloomfield wrote in message o.uk...
On 19/02/2004 Jason Arthurs opined:-
It is frowned upon to relocate the master socket? I ask this as it
will of course be in the loft rather than merely moving it into a
different room.

Strictly speaking you are not allowed to interfere with the master
socket or the wiring linking that to the pole. In practise, if you make
a reasonably competant job of it, then the BT engineer is very unlikely
to complain.

I moved our master socket into the loft, in fact the BT engineer
actually assisted me to do this when they were installing new cables
from the pole. He pushed the cable in from the outside, I pulled it
through and connected it up to a new master while he waited.

If you are certain you know what you are doing and feel absolutely
confident, then get on with it.... Just keep the phone cables well away
from any mains wiring.

The master socket contains a sense resistor, and the lines are
automatically monitored. If you remove the master socket a fault
condition will therefore be detected.

Regards, NT

On Thu, 19 Feb 2004, N. Thornton wrote:

The master socket contains a sense resistor, and the lines are
automatically monitored. If you remove the master socket a fault
condition will therefore be detected.

Only when they run the nightly diagnostic routines on the exchange.

In any case, I have had lines with no master socket or terminating
apparatus connected for several years without BT saying anything. I'm sure
they were glad that some fool was paying the line rental charge for a line
that went no further than the DP in the basement.


--
Alistair Riddell - BOFH
Microsoft - because god hates us

On 19 Feb 2004 15:53:17 -0800, N. Thornton wrote:

The master socket contains a sense resistor, and the lines are
automatically monitored. If you remove the master socket a fault
condition will therefore be detected.

Always assuming that your line is on an automatic tester, not all are,
and that the tester just happens to test your line as it's
disconnected from the master socket. Even then it's not likely to
result in more than a few bytes of storage used in the testers log
file.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message ill.com...
On 19 Feb 2004 15:53:17 -0800, N. Thornton wrote:

The master socket contains a sense resistor, and the lines are
automatically monitored. If you remove the master socket a fault
condition will therefore be detected.

Always assuming that your line is on an automatic tester, not all are,
and that the tester just happens to test your line as it's
disconnected from the master socket. Even then it's not likely to
result in more than a few bytes of storage used in the testers log
file.

Here they sent an 'engineer' round when the master socket went o/c. I
didnt even know there was a problem. I think it was genuine as they
tested the sockets and replaced one.

Regards, NT

On 22 Feb 2004 03:06:21 -0800, N. Thornton wrote:

Here they sent an 'engineer' round when the master socket went o/c.
I didnt even know there was a problem. I think it was genuine as
they tested the sockets and replaced one.

Yes automatic testers exist but they generally only test once every
24hrs. It wouldn't make economic sense to send an engineer out to a
single report of a fault either, a line that repeatedly tests faulty
is another matter.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

(N. Thornton) wrote in message Here they sent an 'engineer' round when the master socket went o/c. I
didnt even know there was a problem. I think it was genuine as they
tested the sockets and replaced one.

Regards, NT

That's strange. My parents had a BT engineer call round as well but no
fault had been reported. This guy insisted on replacing the master
socket. A couple of weeks later they got a £50 engineer call-out
charge sent to them!

I'm wondering whether the engineers are getting some kind of bonus per
callout attended.

O

Also does anyone know of a supplier of exterior grade telephone cable
(preferably black) that I can use to run the new slave socket back down to
old master socket location.

Regards,
Jason.

Maplins used to do it. Nice to see someone using black cable outside
instead of all that white stuff you see everywhere.

Dave

--
And you were born knowing all about ms windows....??

On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 18:03:42 +0000, Jason Arthurs
wrote:

My server currently runs in the loft and I have a somewhat threadbare
telephone extension lead trailing up the stairs and through the loft
hatch which supplies my ADSL connection.

As our house is supplied via telegraph pole the main pair meets the
house at roof level and then comes down the front of the house before
coming in alongside the front door. I was wondering about merely
disconnecting the master socket and pulling the external cable back
through the wall before running it into the loft under the barge
boards. I can then run a slave socket back to the location of the
original socket by the front door.

It is frowned upon to relocate the master socket? I ask this as it
will of course be in the loft rather than merely moving it into a
different room.

Also does anyone know of a supplier of exterior grade telephone cable
(preferably black) that I can use to run the new slave socket back
down to old master socket location.

It's not strictly allowed, but it's been known to be done.
If you're running cables into the loft then back down to where the
socket is now, why not just run a extension from the master into the
loft, following the route from the master up to roof so there are no
extra cable runs. Or am I missing something?
...

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd.

"Lurch" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 18:03:42 +0000, Jason Arthurs
wrote:

My server currently runs in the loft and I have a somewhat threadbare
telephone extension lead trailing up the stairs and through the loft
hatch which supplies my ADSL connection.

As our house is supplied via telegraph pole the main pair meets the
house at roof level and then comes down the front of the house before
coming in alongside the front door. I was wondering about merely
disconnecting the master socket and pulling the external cable back
through the wall before running it into the loft under the barge
boards. I can then run a slave socket back to the location of the
original socket by the front door.

It is frowned upon to relocate the master socket? I ask this as it
will of course be in the loft rather than merely moving it into a
different room.

Also does anyone know of a supplier of exterior grade telephone cable
(preferably black) that I can use to run the new slave socket back
down to old master socket location.

It's not strictly allowed, but it's been known to be done.
If you're running cables into the loft then back down to where the
socket is now, why not just run a extension from the master into the
loft, following the route from the master up to roof so there are no
extra cable runs. Or am I missing something?
..

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd.

As the cable is coming from a telegraph pole and therefore arrives at roof
level is looks unsightly running down the wall and worst of all wrapping
around the brickwork at the front door.

Martin.

It's not strictly allowed, but it's been known to be done.
If you're running cables into the loft then back down to where the
socket is now, why not just run a extension from the master into the
loft, following the route from the master up to roof so there are no
extra cable runs. Or am I missing something?
..

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd.

As the cable is coming from a telegraph pole and therefore arrives at roof
level is looks unsightly running down the wall and worst of all wrapping
around the brickwork at the front door.

Typical BT job then! How about if you just tidied up the existing
cabling.
...

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd.

On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 18:03:42 +0000, Jason Arthurs
wrote:

My server currently runs in the loft and I have a somewhat threadbare
telephone extension lead trailing up the stairs and through the loft
hatch which supplies my ADSL connection.

I am curious!

I would have thought that running any sort of equipment in the loft is
asking for trouble. Reason being that the temperature up there can go
outside the specs of the equipment. It gets damned cold up there in
winter and sweating hot in the summer.

Am I just being unrealistic or could this be a real problem?

PoP

-----

My published email address probably won't work. If
you need to contact me please submit your comments
via the web form at http://www.anyoldtripe.co.uk

I apologise for the additional effort, however the
level of unsolicited email I receive makes it
impossible to advertise my real email address!

On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 21:22:32 +0000, PoP wrote:

On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 18:03:42 +0000, Jason Arthurs
wrote:

My server currently runs in the loft and I have a somewhat threadbare
telephone extension lead trailing up the stairs and through the loft
hatch which supplies my ADSL connection.

I am curious!

I would have thought that running any sort of equipment in the loft is
asking for trouble. Reason being that the temperature up there can go
outside the specs of the equipment. It gets damned cold up there in
winter and sweating hot in the summer.

Am I just being unrealistic or could this be a real problem?



If you don't take any steps to control the temperature then it could
be.

I dealt with it by making an insulated cabinet and arranging two fans
with ducting in and out from the outside and inside the house. The
fan speeds are controlled by a temperature sensor and motor
controller, and there are servo controlled dampers in the ducting.

During the winter months, air is brought in from and out to the house
so that heat produced by the electronics ends up in the house.
The fans run fairly slowly and the cabinet is maintained pretty well
at about 23 degrees.

During the summer, air is taken in from and delivered back outside.
The fans are still effective even in hot weather and last summer the
cabinet only ran a couple of degrees above the outside temperature
during the hot period, which was OK. Most of the time it was running
at the 23-25 range.



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Andy Hall wrote
PoP wrote:
Jason Arthurs wrote:

My server currently runs in the loft
I am curious!

I would have thought that running any sort of equipment in the loft is
asking for trouble. Reason being that the temperature up there can go
outside the specs of the equipment. It gets damned cold up there in
winter and sweating hot in the summer.

If you don't take any steps to control the temperature then it could be.

Methinks you worry too much.

Any decent kit (i.e something that's not been cobbled up in a 3rd
party case) has a wide operating temperature, and it is the rate of
change of the ambient temperature that causes an issue, not the
actual maximum or minimum temperatures.

My firewall (Compaq Pentium 2) is in the loft with no special
insulation around it, and the projected low for tonight is -4.

I'm not worried about it. It will just get extra cooling this evening
;-)

I have had computer room air conditioning failures causing a very
steep step change in temperature (up to ~32 degrees C in 1 case) I had
3 disk failures out of an installed base of ~600 and 1 machine auto
shut down due to overtemperature out of 200 (and this was found to be
too close to adjacent kit).

Similarly I have seen machines operate at either end of their
envelopes [1] without incident.

Cheers,

Paul.

[1] Spec sheets on mine say:
5 to 35 C Operating
-20 to +60 Non Operating

Methinks you worry too much.

Any decent kit (i.e something that's not been cobbled up in a 3rd
party case) has a wide operating temperature, and it is the rate of
change of the ambient temperature that causes an issue, not the
actual maximum or minimum temperatures.

My firewall (Compaq Pentium 2) is in the loft with no special
insulation around it, and the projected low for tonight is -4.

I'm not worried about it. It will just get extra cooling this evening
;-)

I have had computer room air conditioning failures causing a very
steep step change in temperature (up to ~32 degrees C in 1 case) I had
3 disk failures out of an installed base of ~600 and 1 machine auto
shut down due to overtemperature out of 200 (and this was found to be
too close to adjacent kit).

Similarly I have seen machines operate at either end of their
envelopes [1] without incident.

Cheers,

Paul.

[1] Spec sheets on mine say:
5 to 35 C Operating
-20 to +60 Non Operating

I don't disagree that rate of change can have a big effect, although
high continuous temperatures do affect the failure rate of electronics
in general. For example, it is common to do accelerated tests at high
temperatures to check for failure in new designs.

The low end generally doesn't matter unless the air is very damp
because the equipment itself will generate enough warmth to keep it
dry.

High end can be a problem because 35 or 40 degrees max operating
ambient is very typical for IT equipment. In a loft in the summer,
even without the extremes of last summer, that can be reached for a
few hours in the early afternoon.



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Andy Hall wrote in message . ..

Methinks you worry too much.

Any decent kit (i.e something that's not been cobbled up in a 3rd
party case) has a wide operating temperature, and it is the rate of
change of the ambient temperature that causes an issue, not the
actual maximum or minimum temperatures.

My firewall (Compaq Pentium 2) is in the loft with no special
insulation around it, and the projected low for tonight is -4.

I'm not worried about it. It will just get extra cooling this evening
;-)

I have had computer room air conditioning failures causing a very
steep step change in temperature (up to ~32 degrees C in 1 case) I had
3 disk failures out of an installed base of ~600 and 1 machine auto
shut down due to overtemperature out of 200 (and this was found to be
too close to adjacent kit).

Similarly I have seen machines operate at either end of their
envelopes [1] without incident.

Cheers,

Paul.

[1] Spec sheets on mine say:
5 to 35 C Operating
-20 to +60 Non Operating

I don't disagree that rate of change can have a big effect, although
high continuous temperatures do affect the failure rate of electronics
in general. For example, it is common to do accelerated tests at high
temperatures to check for failure in new designs.

This kind of testing is looking for permanent, physical, failure
modes.

Operating at too high a temperature in a loft is unlikely to do
permanent damage (unless the temp is really extreme) but will cause
malfunction.

Andrew

On 25 Feb 2004 18:21:21 -0800, (Zymurgy)
wrote:

If you don't take any steps to control the temperature then it could be.

Methinks you worry too much.

Any decent kit (i.e something that's not been cobbled up in a 3rd
party case) has a wide operating temperature, and it is the rate of
change of the ambient temperature that causes an issue, not the
actual maximum or minimum temperatures.

I regret that I disagree with you - using an analagy it's like you
saying that your car is fitted with seatbelts so you are immune from
being involved in an accident!

Equipment safety functions can - and do - go wrong. So whilst your PC
(etc) might work just fine in a given temperature range the scope
might change very markedly if say the internal fan fails. By way of
example if the PC is operating within its safety limits with an
ambient temperature of 35 degrees C and then an internal component
goes out of spec then a temperature in the equipment could rise
markedly and lead to a fire.

I simply don't think that having a single point of failure within
equipment is a good idea, if you are continuously relying upon it to
save your bacon.

Your home insurance company might well take a dim view of paying out
if your equipment were to catch fire. Whether or not they can be
challenged on their decision is another matter - but you can feel
comfortable that they can afford a bigger team of lawyers than you
can.

PoP

-----

My published email address probably won't work. If
you need to contact me please submit your comments
via the web form at http://www.anyoldtripe.co.uk

I apologise for the additional effort, however the
level of unsolicited email I receive makes it
impossible to advertise my real email address!

PoP wrote
Zymurgy wrote:
Methinks you worry too much.

Any decent kit (i.e something that's not been cobbled up in a 3rd
party case) has a wide operating temperature, and it is the rate of
change of the ambient temperature that causes an issue, not the
actual maximum or minimum temperatures.

I regret that I disagree with you -

Well, it'd be a boring group if we all agreed on something ;-)

using an analagy it's like you saying that your car is fitted with seatbelts so you are immune from
being involved in an accident!

Not saying that at all, just that using my not insignificant knowledge
of computer management in large datacentres,
across an enormous range of kit i'm just saying that measures such as
these from Andy:

:I dealt with it by making an insulated cabinet and arranging two fans
:with ducting in and out from the outside and inside the house. The
:fan speeds are controlled by a temperature sensor and motor
:controller, and there are servo controlled dampers in the ducting.

are overkill in my mind, and still do not mitigate for equipment
internal cooling fan failures.

Your home insurance company might well take a dim view of paying out
if your equipment were to catch fire. Whether or not they can be
challenged on their decision is another matter

Equipment will catch fire if it is so predisposed wherever it is
located.

If this was caused by loft overtemperature, then I agree, there will
be some culpability. If we have a long hot summer reminiscent of '76
then I will consider secondary cooling, or relocation of the
equipment, until such time, I remain nonplussed.

I remain convinced my firewall will be up after its freeze thaw
session last night, due in no small part to the microclimate around it
;-)

Cheers,

Paul

(Zymurgy) wrote in message . com...
Andy Hall wrote
PoP wrote:
Jason Arthurs wrote:

My server currently runs in the loft
I am curious!

I would have thought that running any sort of equipment in the loft is
asking for trouble. Reason being that the temperature up there can go
outside the specs of the equipment. It gets damned cold up there in
winter and sweating hot in the summer.

If you don't take any steps to control the temperature then it could be.

Methinks you worry too much.

Any decent kit (i.e something that's not been cobbled up in a 3rd
party case) has a wide operating temperature, and it is the rate of
change of the ambient temperature that causes an issue,
not the actual maximum or minimum temperatures.

That's rubbish. Electronic equipment can and does fail when operated
outside of its specified temperature range. The spec for any piece of
equipment is a worst case figure and you may well be able to operate a
particular example well outside that spec but there will be a limit at
both high and low temperature.

My firewall (Compaq Pentium 2) is in the loft with no special
insulation around it, and the projected low for tonight is -4.

The low temperatures we get in this country (even left outside) would
not generally be a problem for most electronic equipment if left
powered up to keep it warm.

I have had computer room air conditioning failures causing a very
steep step change in temperature (up to ~32 degrees C in 1 case) I had
3 disk failures out of an installed base of ~600 and 1 machine auto
shut down due to overtemperature out of 200 (and this was found to be
too close to adjacent kit).

So? The air con failed and the ambient temperature became too high. It
has nothing to do with rate of change. Even if you had raised the
temperature over the space of a week you would have seen the same
failures.

Similarly I have seen machines operate at either end of their
envelopes [1] without incident.

That's what they're designed to do. Take them outside their envelope
and they *will* fail eventually.

Andrew

Andrew wrote:

(Zymurgy) wrote in message . com...

Andy Hall wrote

PoP wrote:

Jason Arthurs wrote:


My server currently runs in the loft

I am curious!

I would have thought that running any sort of equipment in the loft is
asking for trouble. Reason being that the temperature up there can go
outside the specs of the equipment. It gets damned cold up there in
winter and sweating hot in the summer.

If you don't take any steps to control the temperature then it could be.

Methinks you worry too much.

Any decent kit (i.e something that's not been cobbled up in a 3rd
party case) has a wide operating temperature, and it is the rate of
change of the ambient temperature that causes an issue,
not the actual maximum or minimum temperatures.


That's rubbish. Electronic equipment can and does fail when operated
outside of its specified temperature range. The spec for any piece of
equipment is a worst case figure and you may well be able to operate a
particular example well outside that spec but there will be a limit at
both high and low temperature.



I have to agree. Ther are failure modes associated with temperature
cycling, most;y mechanical stress leading to failures of joiints and
frit seals on chips, but by far and away the usual cause of
semiconductor PERMANENT as well as TEMPORARY degratation is overtemperature.



My firewall (Compaq Pentium 2) is in the loft with no special
insulation around it, and the projected low for tonight is -4.


The low temperatures we get in this country (even left outside) would
not generally be a problem for most electronic equipment if left
powered up to keep it warm.



Most commercial equipment can reasonably be expected to work between 0C
and 40C. The chips themselves are generally in spec between -5 and 70C,
but that is not the whole story....MIL spec stuff is rated between -25C
and 125C



I have had computer room air conditioning failures causing a very
steep step change in temperature (up to ~32 degrees C in 1 case) I had
3 disk failures out of an installed base of ~600 and 1 machine auto
shut down due to overtemperature out of 200 (and this was found to be
too close to adjacent kit).


So? The air con failed and the ambient temperature became too high. It
has nothing to do with rate of change. Even if you had raised the
temperature over the space of a week you would have seen the same
failures.



Precisely. Internal air temps over 50C are almost certainly indicative o
very high junction temperatures - go ovcer 175 junction on MOS and its
'good night, vienna'.



Similarly I have seen machines operate at either end of their
envelopes [1] without incident.


That's what they're designed to do. Take them outside their envelope
and they *will* fail eventually.



Mostly thety stop working before they fail. Chips are made to lie
withing specs, but no manufacturer in the world designs his kit to
accept components that are all at the worst possible end of the
specification spectrum.

Insdtead a monte carlo analyisis is done at best. In practice what
actually happens is that the designers do their best, a few prototypes
are temperature tested, and the production goes ahead. If lots of users
report a similar problem then the design may be examined, but mostly
they just get replacement boards. Its cheaper.

Even MIL spec kit os not necessarily designed to any different
standards, but it may well be sample tested in an envoironmental chamber
to ensure it works over the specifed range.


Andrew

Jason Arthurs wrote in
:

Also does anyone know of a supplier of exterior grade telephone cable
(preferably black) that I can use to run the new slave socket back
down to old master socket location.

I bought mine from J H Hardy of Birmingham - 0121-7848478. Also online at
http://www.jwhardy.com/pages/pl_telephone.html. You want CW1308 spec cable
in black.
--

Regards.

Nick Pitfield )

My 2 BT lines current end at a master socket in the back bedroom. I was
going to call BT and ask them to move the master sockets out to my shed
(which is being converted into an office).

But having thought about it, perhaps its best just to run extensions to the
shed.

Will this affect my ADSL speed? As the OP asked, where can I get the
exterior black BT cable to run out to the shed?

"Jason Arthurs" wrote in message
...
My server currently runs in the loft and I have a somewhat threadbare
telephone extension lead trailing up the stairs and through the loft
hatch which supplies my ADSL connection.

As our house is supplied via telegraph pole the main pair meets the
house at roof level and then comes down the front of the house before
coming in alongside the front door. I was wondering about merely
disconnecting the master socket and pulling the external cable back
through the wall before running it into the loft under the barge
boards. I can then run a slave socket back to the location of the
original socket by the front door.

It is frowned upon to relocate the master socket? I ask this as it
will of course be in the loft rather than merely moving it into a
different room.

Also does anyone know of a supplier of exterior grade telephone cable
(preferably black) that I can use to run the new slave socket back
down to old master socket location.

Regards,
Jason.

---
Replace nntp with my name to reply.

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 16:27:36 -0000, "Stephen Gilkes"
wrote:

My 2 BT lines current end at a master socket in the back bedroom. I was
going to call BT and ask them to move the master sockets out to my shed
(which is being converted into an office).

But having thought about it, perhaps its best just to run extensions to the
shed.

It'd be cheaper if nothing else.

Will this affect my ADSL speed? As the OP asked, where can I get the
exterior black BT cable to run out to the shed?

Have a look here.

http://www.jwhardy.co.uk/shop/pages/pl_telephone.html
...

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd.

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 16:27:36 -0000, "Stephen Gilkes"
wrote:

Will this affect my ADSL speed? As the OP asked, where can I get the
exterior black BT cable to run out to the shed?

Perhaps a nearby BT van could provide an 'offcut' in return for some
beer money etc.

cheers,
Pete.

Stephen Gilkes wrote:

My 2 BT lines current end at a master socket in the back bedroom. I was
going to call BT and ask them to move the master sockets out to my shed
(which is being converted into an office).

But having thought about it, perhaps its best just to run extensions to the
shed.

Will this affect my ADSL speed? As the OP asked, where can I get the
exterior black BT cable to run out to the shed?



Nothing is critical. BT black cable is onl useful in that it has a steel
wire running through it to help it suspend over long runs.

CAT 5 is electrically perfectly good enough.

BT engineers are all subcontarcat anyway, and no one really gives a toss
provided they have access to a master socket somewhere.

In my new house we simply picked up the old cable that had been
re-reigged into the portakabin, slung it up a ladder, stuffed it through
the eaves, and connected it via a chocolate block to some cat 5, and ran
that to the master socket. Firuntaley I still had one that says 'BT
digital access' on it.

ISDN works fine.

If I'm just going to run an extension from the master sockets ( I have 2
lines). Can I access the master sockets or do i have to use an extension
cable that pulgs in to the front of the master socket. Someone told me that
I cant use the black external cable anyway as it is missing a wire.


"Stephen Gilkes" wrote in message
...
My 2 BT lines current end at a master socket in the back bedroom. I was
going to call BT and ask them to move the master sockets out to my shed
(which is being converted into an office).

But having thought about it, perhaps its best just to run extensions to
the
shed.

Will this affect my ADSL speed? As the OP asked, where can I get the
exterior black BT cable to run out to the shed?

"Jason Arthurs" wrote in message
...
My server currently runs in the loft and I have a somewhat threadbare
telephone extension lead trailing up the stairs and through the loft
hatch which supplies my ADSL connection.

As our house is supplied via telegraph pole the main pair meets the
house at roof level and then comes down the front of the house before
coming in alongside the front door. I was wondering about merely
disconnecting the master socket and pulling the external cable back
through the wall before running it into the loft under the barge
boards. I can then run a slave socket back to the location of the
original socket by the front door.

It is frowned upon to relocate the master socket? I ask this as it
will of course be in the loft rather than merely moving it into a
different room.

Also does anyone know of a supplier of exterior grade telephone cable
(preferably black) that I can use to run the new slave socket back
down to old master socket location.

Regards,
Jason.

---
Replace nntp with my name to reply.

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 16:59:36 -0000, "Stephen Gilkes"
wrote:

If I'm just going to run an extension from the master sockets ( I have 2
lines). Can I access the master sockets or do i have to use an extension
cable that pulgs in to the front of the master socket.

You undo the two screws in the front of the master socket and the
bottom half of the faceplate will pull away. On the rear of this are
the required terminals for connecting to extension wiring.

Someone told me that
I cant use the black external cable anyway as it is missing a wire.

Not true, you need 3 wires per line, so if you are running two lines
on the extension cabling you need 3 pair cable, (6 wires). You can get
cable in different cores, maybe someone told you of his experience
assuming it was a standard cable that they had. For reference
purposes, I have just fitted some 50pair cable for 48 digital
extensions, that may be a little ott for your needs but you can go as
large as you like.
...

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd.

Which leads me onto... where can I get black 3 pair cable?

JW Hardy only has 2 pair in the telephone section.

"Lurch" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 16:59:36 -0000, "Stephen Gilkes"
wrote:

If I'm just going to run an extension from the master sockets ( I have 2
lines). Can I access the master sockets or do i have to use an extension
cable that pulgs in to the front of the master socket.

You undo the two screws in the front of the master socket and the
bottom half of the faceplate will pull away. On the rear of this are
the required terminals for connecting to extension wiring.

Someone told me that
I cant use the black external cable anyway as it is missing a wire.

Not true, you need 3 wires per line, so if you are running two lines
on the extension cabling you need 3 pair cable, (6 wires). You can get
cable in different cores, maybe someone told you of his experience
assuming it was a standard cable that they had. For reference
purposes, I have just fitted some 50pair cable for 48 digital
extensions, that may be a little ott for your needs but you can go as
large as you like.
..

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd.

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 17:18:19 -0000, "Stephen Gilkes"
wrote:

Which leads me onto... where can I get black 3 pair cable?

JW Hardy only has 2 pair in the telephone section.

There are a few options here, give them a call to check on the exact
match as they don't appear to list it.

http://www.somtech.co.uk/voice_int-ext_cable.htm

Or Maplin list PB78K, but I think that's internal. I usually use
internal grade cable, I haven't had any problems yet.

Put 'CW1308 external 3 pair' into www.google.co.uk and see what you
come up with.
...

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd.

The socket is not quite as you say it should be but I think the procedure is
the same.

I have put a couple of pics of the socket on the web he

http://www.gilkesy.co.uk/btsocket


"Lurch" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 16:59:36 -0000, "Stephen Gilkes"
wrote:

If I'm just going to run an extension from the master sockets ( I have 2
lines). Can I access the master sockets or do i have to use an extension
cable that pulgs in to the front of the master socket.

You undo the two screws in the front of the master socket and the
bottom half of the faceplate will pull away. On the rear of this are
the required terminals for connecting to extension wiring.

Someone told me that
I cant use the black external cable anyway as it is missing a wire.

Not true, you need 3 wires per line, so if you are running two lines
on the extension cabling you need 3 pair cable, (6 wires). You can get
cable in different cores, maybe someone told you of his experience
assuming it was a standard cable that they had. For reference
purposes, I have just fitted some 50pair cable for 48 digital
extensions, that may be a little ott for your needs but you can go as
large as you like.
..

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd.

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 17:37:36 -0000, "Stephen Gilkes"
wrote:

The socket is not quite as you say it should be but I think the procedure is
the same.

I have put a couple of pics of the socket on the web he

http://www.gilkesy.co.uk/btsocket

In that case then, as you say, a similar procedure. Just insert the
extension wiring into the terminals you have there, 2,3&5 are the ones
you need to use.
...

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd.