I know this has been discussed many times before on this NG but just
wondered if anyone had any personnel recommendations drawing from their own
experience rather than anecdotal evidence.

I know this has been discussed many times before on this NG but just
wondered if anyone had any personnel recommendations drawing from
their own experience rather than anecdotal evidence.

Ion exchange works very well. Phosphate dosing works a bit.
Electronic/magnetic conditioning works for those who believe in the tooth
fairy.

Christian.

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:06:55 +0000, Christian McArdle wrote:

I know this has been discussed many times before on this NG but just
wondered if anyone had any personnel recommendations drawing from
their own experience rather than anecdotal evidence.

Ion exchange works very well. Phosphate dosing works a bit.
Electronic/magnetic conditioning works for those who believe in the tooth
fairy.

ROFL
Asking how it works will surely cause it to cease doing so!

The manufacturers may quibble about feeding the boiler softened water but
AFAIK there is no good reason why this should cause any problems.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:06:55 +0000, Christian McArdle wrote:

I know this has been discussed many times before on this NG but just
wondered if anyone had any personnel recommendations drawing from
their own experience rather than anecdotal evidence.

Ion exchange works very well. Phosphate dosing works a bit.
Electronic/magnetic conditioning works for those who believe in the
tooth
fairy.

I was in a hospital last week and before all electric water heating
appliances they in-line magnetic descalers made by Liff.

ROFL
Asking how it works will surely cause it to cease doing so!

The manufacturers may quibble about feeding the boiler softened water but
AFAIK there is no good reason why this should cause any problems.

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:06:55 +0000, Christian McArdle wrote:

I know this has been discussed many times before on this NG but just
wondered if anyone had any personnel recommendations drawing from
their own experience rather than anecdotal evidence.

Ion exchange works very well. Phosphate dosing works a bit.
Electronic/magnetic conditioning works for those who believe in the
tooth
fairy.

I was in a hospital last week and before all electric water heating
appliances they in-line magnetic descalers made by Liff.

snip

....and the placebo effect is very well known in the medical world.



--
Richard Sampson

email me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk

"RichardS" noaccess@invalid wrote in message
. ..

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:06:55 +0000, Christian McArdle wrote:

I know this has been discussed many times before on this NG but
just
wondered if anyone had any personnel recommendations drawing from
their own experience rather than anecdotal evidence.

Ion exchange works very well. Phosphate dosing works a bit.
Electronic/magnetic conditioning works for those who believe in the
tooth
fairy.

I was in a hospital last week and before all electric water heating
appliances they in-line magnetic descalers made by Liff.

snip

...and the placebo effect is very well known in the medical world.

Not to hard nosed engineers it s not.

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 19:57:52 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:06:55 +0000, Christian McArdle wrote:

I know this has been discussed many times before on this NG but just
wondered if anyone had any personnel recommendations drawing from
their own experience rather than anecdotal evidence.

Ion exchange works very well. Phosphate dosing works a bit.
Electronic/magnetic conditioning works for those who believe in the
tooth
fairy.

I was in a hospital last week and before all electric water heating
appliances they in-line magnetic descalers made by Liff.

... and they let you out?



ROFL
Asking how it works will surely cause it to cease doing so!

The manufacturers may quibble about feeding the boiler softened water but
AFAIK there is no good reason why this should cause any problems.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 19:57:52 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:06:55 +0000, Christian McArdle wrote:

I know this has been discussed many times before on this NG but just
wondered if anyone had any personnel recommendations drawing from
their own experience rather than anecdotal evidence.

Ion exchange works very well. Phosphate dosing works a bit.
Electronic/magnetic conditioning works for those who believe in the
tooth
fairy.

I was in a hospital last week and before all electric water heating
appliances they in-line magnetic descalers made by Liff.

.. and they let you out?

They thought me so brilliant they didn't want me to go.

Ion exchange works very well.

To add to this, there are considerable differences in ion exchange water
softeners. The two main differences are the method of regeneration and the
flow rates of the system.

Maximum flow rates and pressure drops vary from valve design to valve
design. All are suitable for topping up a loft tank. However, a house on a
mains pressure system, such as a combi boiler, unvented cylinder, or heat
bank must choose wisely to ensure that the pressure drop for the expected
flow rate is low, and that the system is capable of performing the ion
exchange at such a high flow rate without letting hard ions through.

When installing a high flow rate system, it is best to throw away the
washing machine hoses provided and use full bore valves and fixed pipework,
leaving only the valve and cylinders to reduce flow rate capacity.

As for the method of regeneration, there are many strategies. The cheapest
is to use a timer to regenerate in the middle of the night every 'x' days.
The disadvantages of this is that the system may regenerate too frequently
when usage is low and run out with usage is high.

A metered system regenerates after a certain amount of water is used. This
prevents wastage, but means that regeneration may occur at an inconvenient
point and allow hard water through.

A combination system will regenerate during the night after the system is
mostly depleted. Some systems of this type are very sophisticated and will
predict your usage depending on past usage to determine the best time to
regenerate. Some can do a non-full regeneration if they consider it optimum.

The best systems, however, simply have two canisters. When the metering
indicates a change, the system swaps over and the depleted canister is
regenerated. This gives soft water 24 hours a day and minimum wastage of
water and salt. These systems typically cost much more, around the 1000
pounds mark, rather than 500 for a high flow rate sophisticated meter, or
300 for a cheapo timed version.

Christian.

Christian McArdle wrote:

Ion exchange works very well.


To add to this, there are considerable differences in ion exchange water
softeners. The two main differences are the method of regeneration and the
flow rates of the system.

Maximum flow rates and pressure drops vary from valve design to valve
design. All are suitable for topping up a loft tank. However, a house on a
mains pressure system, such as a combi boiler, unvented cylinder, or heat
bank must choose wisely to ensure that the pressure drop for the expected
flow rate is low, and that the system is capable of performing the ion
exchange at such a high flow rate without letting hard ions through.

When installing a high flow rate system, it is best to throw away the
washing machine hoses provided and use full bore valves and fixed pipework,
leaving only the valve and cylinders to reduce flow rate capacity.

As for the method of regeneration, there are many strategies. The cheapest
is to use a timer to regenerate in the middle of the night every 'x' days.
The disadvantages of this is that the system may regenerate too frequently
when usage is low and run out with usage is high.

A metered system regenerates after a certain amount of water is used. This
prevents wastage, but means that regeneration may occur at an inconvenient
point and allow hard water through.

A combination system will regenerate during the night after the system is
mostly depleted. Some systems of this type are very sophisticated and will
predict your usage depending on past usage to determine the best time to
regenerate. Some can do a non-full regeneration if they consider it optimum.

The best systems, however, simply have two canisters. When the metering
indicates a change, the system swaps over and the depleted canister is
regenerated. This gives soft water 24 hours a day and minimum wastage of
water and salt. These systems typically cost much more, around the 1000
pounds mark, rather than 500 for a high flow rate sophisticated meter, or
300 for a cheapo timed version.


And at £5 a month for salt, that's a lot of months before they pay for
themselves.



Christian.

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 21:51:42 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:



And at £5 a month for salt, that's a lot of months before they pay for
themselves.


Don't forget the detergent and shampoo savings. That generally mopre
than covers the salt cost.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 21:51:42 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:



And at £5 a month for salt, that's a lot of months before they pay for
themselves.

Don't forget the detergent and shampoo savings. That generally mopre
than covers the salt cost.

You are kidding.

Andy Hall wrote:

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 21:51:42 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:



And at £5 a month for salt, that's a lot of months before they pay for
themselves.



Don't forget the detergent and shampoo savings. That generally mopre
than covers the salt cost.



It's not relevant when comparing one ion exchange with another.

Which was I thgink the point under discussion - the complex ones don't
soften the water better, they just use less salt.



.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

The Natural Philosopher wrote in message ...

And at £5 a month for salt, that's a lot of months before they pay for
themselves.

Superficially that is correct. However, my experience is that the washing
machine and dishwasher last a lot longer, she doesn't make me descale the
taps etc every 6 weeks, the car is easier to wash( not rinse), so I think
it's worth it!

By the way, I don't believe the electronic controllers are worthwhile when
compared with a crude timer. The chance of buying electronics spares after a
few years can be very iffy and if you have a large enough loft tank, the
volume of water in the tank may maintain a lower hardness level even if
regeneration is a day delayed. Anyway, you soon notice if the soap doesn't
lather, and do something about it. Generally, refill it with salt!
Regards
Capitol

Capitol wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote in message ...


And at £5 a month for salt, that's a lot of months before they pay for
themselves.


Superficially that is correct. However, my experience is that the washing
machine and dishwasher last a lot longer, she doesn't make me descale the
taps etc every 6 weeks, the car is easier to wash( not rinse), so I think
it's worth it!



You have missed the point. I was comparing the cots of a 1000 quid
microprocessor equipped machine with a simple 300 quid 'recharge every
week timer' machine.

My point being that all the expensive one does is save on salt.

But you can buy about 140 months of salt with that 700 quid, so if - say
- the 1000 quid one saves half teh salt - at £60 a year on the cheapo,
thats £30 quid a year saved for the extra 700 quid. Now to borrow the
700 quid you are probably talking about - say - 6% APR? so it costs you
£42 a year to save £30?

Its a no brainer.


By the way, I don't believe the electronic controllers are worthwhile when
compared with a crude timer. The chance of buying electronics spares after a
few years can be very iffy and if you have a large enough loft tank, the
volume of water in the tank may maintain a lower hardness level even if
regeneration is a day delayed. Anyway, you soon notice if the soap doesn't
lather, and do something about it. Generally, refill it with salt!


Precisely. I have one that wasn't too expensive, and does regenerate
automatically depending on flow rate. I preprogrammed water hardness in.
That seems to be about right. I only notice hardness building up when it
runs out of salt.

However if I could have got the flow rate on a cheaper model I would
have gone for it. Maybe there is a cheap high reate one out there, but I
didn;t come across it.


BTW on electronic descalers, these only ever claimed to stop scaling by
adjusting the crystal types of the calcium solids. They don't soften the
water as far as soap goes at all. They merely stop (allegedly) hard
scale developing - the chalky stuff is supposed to stay in suspension
and run out with the waste.

If you want a better wash and less soap, you need ion exchange and thats it.


Regards
Capitol

much_to_do wrote:
I know this has been discussed many times before on this NG but just
wondered if anyone had any personnel recommendations drawing from their own
experience rather than anecdotal evidence.


We live in a very hard water area and have just fitted a "proper" (ion
exchange) water softener.

We chose a sensotronic 614 which was quite expensive at £800 but I wish
we'd done it years ago - it's FANTASTIC

DO IT ASAP

Nick

"Nick Brooks" wrote in message
...
much_to_do wrote:
I know this has been discussed many times before on this NG but just
wondered if anyone had any personnel recommendations drawing from their
own
experience rather than anecdotal evidence.


We live in a very hard water area and have just fitted a "proper" (ion
exchange) water softener.

We chose a sensotronic 614 which was quite expensive at £800 but I wish
we'd done it years ago - it's FANTASTIC

That £800 pay for a lot of phosphor canisters.

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 21:37:05 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Nick Brooks" wrote in message
...
much_to_do wrote:
I know this has been discussed many times before on this NG but just
wondered if anyone had any personnel recommendations drawing from their
own
experience rather than anecdotal evidence.


We live in a very hard water area and have just fitted a "proper" (ion
exchange) water softener.

We chose a sensotronic 614 which was quite expensive at £800 but I wish
we'd done it years ago - it's FANTASTIC

That £800 pay for a lot of phosphor canisters.

It doesn't matter how many you put in, they won't soften the water.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 21:37:05 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Nick Brooks" wrote in message
...
much_to_do wrote:
I know this has been discussed many times before on this NG but just
wondered if anyone had any personnel recommendations drawing from
their
own
experience rather than anecdotal evidence.

We live in a very hard water area and have just fitted a "proper" (ion
exchange) water softener.

We chose a sensotronic 614 which was quite expensive at £800 but I wish
we'd done it years ago - it's FANTASTIC

That £800 pay for a lot of phosphor canisters.

It doesn't matter how many you put in, they won't soften the water.

It is pretty certain he wants descaled water.

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 23:02:41 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 21:37:05 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Nick Brooks" wrote in message
...
much_to_do wrote:
I know this has been discussed many times before on this NG but just
wondered if anyone had any personnel recommendations drawing from
their
own
experience rather than anecdotal evidence.

We live in a very hard water area and have just fitted a "proper" (ion
exchange) water softener.

We chose a sensotronic 614 which was quite expensive at £800 but I wish
we'd done it years ago - it's FANTASTIC

That £800 pay for a lot of phosphor canisters.

It doesn't matter how many you put in, they won't soften the water.

It is pretty certain he wants descaled water.


Well, let's see now. Title of thread:

"Water Softener for combi in very hard water area"



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Nick Brooks wrote:

much_to_do wrote:

I know this has been discussed many times before on this NG but just
wondered if anyone had any personnel recommendations drawing from
their own
experience rather than anecdotal evidence.


We live in a very hard water area and have just fitted a "proper" (ion
exchange) water softener.

We chose a sensotronic 614 which was quite expensive at £800 but I wish
we'd done it years ago - it's FANTASTIC

DO IT ASAP

Nick

Any decent ion exchange unit that does he flow rate you will need - and
that IS important for a combi on mains pressure feeding showers - will
make the world of difference.

DO IT ASAP.
As the man said.

"much_to_do" wrote in message
. ..
I know this has been discussed many times before on this NG but just
wondered if anyone had any personnel recommendations drawing from their
own
experience rather than anecdotal evidence.


Got a CombiMate on mine, doses the water with PolyPhosphate.
It works very well, but, bath water is more then a little scummy, doesn't
bother me but could easily bother others.

"much_to_do" wrote in message
. ..
I know this has been discussed many times before on this NG but just
wondered if anyone had any personnel recommendations drawing from their
own
experience rather than anecdotal evidence.

I have an electronic box made by Aqua Dial. It is about 80% plus
successful. I also have a phosphor canister descaler. This is better. I
haven't put both together. but it would be a nice experiment.