Silly question around here really but...

Washing machine about 10 years old, been hammered a bit (2 young kid etc).
Already had a new doorseal (thanks to guidance from this group). Been
repaired "professionally" twice. Still stops occasionally mid cycle and
refuses to open the door, when it does spills 50 litres of water and washing
into the garage.

Is it time to replace or is this symptomatic of a stupid thing like a sensor
or something?

Tony

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
TonyK wrote:

Silly question around here really but...

Washing machine about 10 years old, been hammered a bit (2 young kid
etc). Already had a new doorseal (thanks to guidance from this
group). Been repaired "professionally" twice. Still stops
occasionally mid cycle and refuses to open the door, when it does
spills 50 litres of water and washing into the garage.

Is it time to replace or is this symptomatic of a stupid thing like a
sensor or something?

Tony


Could be something simple. Could be the programmer, I suppose. Either way,
it could cost a lot to find out!

If you can DIY it or get it repaired cheaply, I certainly wouldn't throw it
away just because it's 10 years old. Our current machine (Zanussi) must be
getting on for 20. We replaced the previous one (Hoover) after about 10
years - but that was because the casing was rusting badly as a result of
excessive exposure to nappy fluid - rather than mechanical failure.

Incidentally, most machines - when they stop mid-cycle or fail to pump out
for some reason - can be emptied with very little spillage by unclipping the
output hose from the back and pulling it down into a bowl.
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is Black Hole!

On Thu, 1 Jan 2004 19:18:19 -0000, "TonyK" wrote:

Silly question around here really but...

Washing machine about 10 years old, been hammered a bit (2 young kid etc).
Already had a new doorseal (thanks to guidance from this group). Been
repaired "professionally" twice. Still stops occasionally mid cycle and
refuses to open the door, when it does spills 50 litres of water and washing
into the garage.

Is it time to replace or is this symptomatic of a stupid thing like a sensor
or something?


Try cleaning out the pump and associated pipework, probably coins in
pump.

--
Niall

"Niall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 1 Jan 2004 19:18:19 -0000, "TonyK" wrote:

Silly question around here really but...

Washing machine about 10 years old, been hammered a bit (2 young kid
etc).
Already had a new doorseal (thanks to guidance from this group). Been
repaired "professionally" twice. Still stops occasionally mid cycle and
refuses to open the door, when it does spills 50 litres of water and
washing
into the garage.

Is it time to replace or is this symptomatic of a stupid thing like a
sensor
or something?


Try cleaning out the pump and associated pipework, probably coins in
pump.

Or socks: had a few cases where toddler's socks got into the lint-catching
filter (unscrewable from the front on our Bosch machine) and once where one
got stuck in the rubber funnel which connects between the outer drum and the
pump etc pipework. Also had a case where the machine filled and filled until
water reached and gushed out of the soap dispenser, due to blockage in the
branch of rubber pipework from this funnel bit to the pressure switch which
senses the level of water in the drum. A thorough cleanout of the gunge in
this funnel+pipework area sorted it.


--
John Stumbles
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-|-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
-+
The astronomer married a star

Our old Whirlpool started to stop mid-cycle and it turned out to
be the programmer. Not stop exactly - it got stuck on whatever it
was doing when the programmer cut out.

I got a reconditioned exchange unit from some place I forget, but
will dig out the details if you need them. ISTR it cost about £35
for our model. Took a day to fit it though! The programmer had an
insane number of wires atached to it - getting on for 100 I
think. Frightening just to look at and contemplate meddling with.
Labelling them all up with the terminal numbers took the morning.
Reassembling the ball of spaghetti round the new programmer took
most of the afternoon. I was skint but had time on my hands so it
was worth it. Otherwise...

W.









"Niall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 1 Jan 2004 19:18:19 -0000, "TonyK" wrote:

Silly question around here really but...

Washing machine about 10 years old, been hammered a bit (2
young kid etc).
Already had a new doorseal (thanks to guidance from this
group). Been
repaired "professionally" twice. Still stops occasionally mid
cycle and
refuses to open the door, when it does spills 50 litres of
water and washing
into the garage.

Is it time to replace or is this symptomatic of a stupid thing
like a sensor
or something?


Try cleaning out the pump and associated pipework, probably
coins in
pump.

--
Niall

On Thu, 1 Jan 2004 21:23:41 -0000, "John Stumbles"
] wrote:

"Niall" wrote in message
...


Try cleaning out the pump and associated pipework, probably coins in
pump.

Or socks: had a few cases where toddler's socks got into the lint-catching
filter (unscrewable from the front on our Bosch machine) and once where one
got stuck in the rubber funnel which connects between the outer drum and the
pump etc pipework. Also had a case where the machine filled and filled until
water reached and gushed out of the soap dispenser, due to blockage in the
branch of rubber pipework from this funnel bit to the pressure switch which
senses the level of water in the drum. A thorough cleanout of the gunge in
this funnel+pipework area sorted it.

I'd expect socks and the like to be a showstopper; coins seem to cause
the "occasional mid program stop" symptom. Often advancing the
controller by hand can get it going for a few washes. I'm guessing a
partial blockage slows the emptying enough to confuse the logic.

--
Niall

"Niall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 1 Jan 2004 19:18:19 -0000, "TonyK" wrote:

Silly question around here really but...

Washing machine about 10 years old, been hammered a bit (2 young kid etc).
Already had a new doorseal (thanks to guidance from this group). Been
repaired "professionally" twice. Still stops occasionally mid cycle and
refuses to open the door, when it does spills 50 litres of water and washing
into the garage.

Is it time to replace or is this symptomatic of a stupid thing like a sensor
or something?


Try cleaning out the pump and associated pipework, probably coins in
pump.

The Hoover w/m I have owned have had water level sensors with a tube going to
the bottom of the drum. The tube sometimes gets blocked and needs cleanng out.
This causes a mid cycle stop.


Michael Chare

On Thu, 1 Jan 2004 19:18:19 -0000, "TonyK" wrote:

Silly question around here really but...

Washing machine about 10 years old, been hammered a bit (2 young kid etc).
Already had a new doorseal (thanks to guidance from this group). Been
repaired "professionally" twice. Still stops occasionally mid cycle and
refuses to open the door, when it does spills 50 litres of water and washing
into the garage.

Is it time to replace or is this symptomatic of a stupid thing like a sensor
or something?

My 1997 Whirlpool used to stop mid-flow but it just needed a manual
advance to the next click on the program. When we moved it to another
house we noticed the floor underneath was soaking wet, so obviously
leakage, and after some exploration with a torch and some kitchen roll
I discovered the hose that goes from the powder hopper to the drum had
split and was dripping. £7 later and it's all fixed again.

There's nowt complicated in a 10 year old washer, and looking at our
Dyson there's nowt complicated in that either apart from the
contra-rotation gears. I'd be inclined to examine the pipes first for
blockage like others have suggested.

You haven't said whether you can manually advance the programmer or
not, but even if it's a computerised one there'll be a way of nudging
it on - I was concerned with ours that if it decides to stop we've got
no way of doing that, but you can switch it on with (I think) the spin
button pressed to start Test mode which lets you go through all the
cycles by pressing spin.
--
cheers,

witchy/binarydinosaurs

TonyK wrote:

Silly question around here really but...

Washing machine about 10 years old, been hammered a bit (2 young kid etc).
Already had a new doorseal (thanks to guidance from this group). Been
repaired "professionally" twice. Still stops occasionally mid cycle and
refuses to open the door, when it does spills 50 litres of water and washing
into the garage.

Is it time to replace or is this symptomatic of a stupid thing like a sensor
or something?



There are two appraoches here - its teh same with cars as well.

Buy new, buy cheap, and sell after warranty expires.

Buy good, keep forever, and maintain until so obsolete that not worth
repairing anymore.

Its hard to get a decent quality machine these days tho. Unless you like
disassembling and fixing, buy a cheap new one, flog the guts out and
sell it after two years.


Tony

Woodspoiler wrote:

I was skint but had time on my hands so it
was worth it. Otherwise...


Precisely. What is your time worth?

Be ruthless in cost benefit analysis of all home tasks.

Cost to get a man in to replace a single screw - 50 quid?
Cost of you to go down to shed, rummage arond and find similar screw -
in my case problay an hour elapsed time, and a 25 mile round trip at 30p
a mile, say 7.50 plus and hur of my time - say 30 quid 37.50.
Cost of doing same if you already have the screw? 5p?


I would expect to dismantle and thoroughly clean and fix a washing
machine is several elapsed hours, plus the cost of locating and
purchasing spares. OTOH if you online ordfer a new one, it will be
delivered to your door, the old one removed and the new one sntalled
with less than an hours effort on your part.

Your choice.

In article , The Natural Philosopher
writes

OTOH if you online ordfer a new one, it will be
delivered to your door, the old one removed and the new one sntalled
with less than an hours effort on your part.

Yes, but you forget two things:

1) this is uk.d-i-y

2) the satisfaction from fixing something yourself is often well worth
the time you have had to put into it - and you have learnt something
about how the widget works.

"TonyK" wrote in message
...
Silly question around here really but...

Washing machine about 10 years old, been hammered a bit (2 young kid etc).
Already had a new doorseal (thanks to guidance from this group). Been
repaired "professionally" twice. Still stops occasionally mid cycle and
refuses to open the door, when it does spills 50 litres of water and
washing
into the garage.

Is it time to replace or is this symptomatic of a stupid thing like a
sensor
or something?

Tony



Repaired... 10 mins. Cable tie holding the filler hose had snapped. High
quality stuff obviously!

Cheers

On Fri, 2 Jan 2004 19:57:55 -0000, TonyK wrote:

Repaired... 10 mins. Cable tie holding the filler hose had snapped.
High quality stuff obviously!

And you where going to scrap and buy a new machine just because a 2p
cable tie had given up the ghost. Mind you I bet that there are
hundreds of domestic appliances that are heaved into the back of dust
carts every day with similar simple faults. What a waste of
resources...

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

The Natural Philosopher wrote in message ...

There are two appraoches here - its teh same with cars as well.

Buy new, buy cheap, and sell after warranty expires.

Buy good, keep forever, and maintain until so obsolete that not worth
repairing anymore.

Its hard to get a decent quality machine these days tho. Unless you like
disassembling and fixing, buy a cheap new one, flog the guts out and
sell it after two years.


Option 3: buy good quality second hand, a couple of years old. Now you
get good quality goods at a fraction of the price of cheap new ones.

Our society has gone bonkers with newness disease, and used goods are
an all time bargain. Its easy to get stuff thats as good as new very
very cheaply.


Regards, NT

On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 21:49:06 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Fri, 2 Jan 2004 19:57:55 -0000, TonyK wrote:

Repaired... 10 mins. Cable tie holding the filler hose had snapped.
High quality stuff obviously!

And you where going to scrap and buy a new machine just because a 2p
cable tie had given up the ghost. Mind you I bet that there are
hundreds of domestic appliances that are heaved into the back of dust
carts every day with similar simple faults. What a waste of
resources...


Should all be collected up and given a look over and fixed if possible
then sold to the vultures on Ebay. ;-)

Mark S.

On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 21:49:06 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

And you where going to scrap and buy a new machine just because a 2p
cable tie had given up the ghost. Mind you I bet that there are
hundreds of domestic appliances that are heaved into the back of dust
carts every day with similar simple faults. What a waste of
resources...

There is always a silver lining though!

1: Keeps the dustcart people in work.
2: Keeps the supply chain in work.
3: Keeps the manufacturer in work.

Downside:

4: Keeps one or more sales people in work.

PoP

Replying to the email address given by my news reader
will result in your own email address being instantly
added to my anti-spam database! If you really want to
contact me try changing the prefix in the given email
address to my newsgroup posting name.....

PoP wrote in message . ..
On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 21:49:06 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

And you where going to scrap and buy a new machine just because a 2p
cable tie had given up the ghost. Mind you I bet that there are
hundreds of domestic appliances that are heaved into the back of dust
carts every day with similar simple faults. What a waste of
resources...

There is always a silver lining though!

1: Keeps the dustcart people in work.
2: Keeps the supply chain in work.
3: Keeps the manufacturer in work.

Downside:

4: Keeps one or more sales people in work.

But none of those are plus points. If all the work involved in
manufacturing and disposing of domestic appliances were halved, half
the employees would be available to do more useful work, some of the
stuff we actually do need doing. Short term there'd be job changes,
and as always some would win some would lose, but in the long run we'd
be much better off for it.

You only need to look at practically every example of this happening
through history to see that society becomes better off.


Re the scrapping of decent kit, its a crazy system. A significant
percentage of the stuff doesnt have anything at all wrong with it.
Maybe local authorities could have a warehousing area where folks can
come along and buy stuff for say 2 weeks before it gets landfilled.
Theyd need to emlpoy a safety tester. I gather some tips do this to
some extent, but all should, its just silly to bury such stuff. We
live in a society where most folk are victims to advertising, and
believe they should buy things, throw them away and buy them again. A
bit of education wouldnt go amiss.


Regards, NT

On 3 Jan 2004 03:53:25 -0800, N. Thornton wrote:

Maybe local authorities could have a warehousing area where folks
can come along and buy stuff for say 2 weeks before it gets
landfilled.

Have you seen what a standard refuse collection truck does to a
washing machine? Not much resale value after that treatment. B-)

It's probably down to our remoteness and abscence of a local tip that
the dust cart takes *anything* from white goods to sofas along with
the black bags.

Theyd need to emlpoy a safety tester.

And another collection system, though I think they have a legal
requirement to collect fridge/freezers etc now to recover the CFC's.
Doesn't stop old fridges etc getting lobbed into the back of our dust
carts and crushed though...

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 14:55:36 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

Have you seen what a standard refuse collection truck does to a
washing machine? Not much resale value after that treatment. B-)

I was about to comment that this doesn't happen.....

It's probably down to our remoteness and abscence of a local tip that
the dust cart takes *anything* from white goods to sofas along with
the black bags.

......and then I read the rest of your reply

Around these parts (we live in an estate like most civilised folks)
you get one green bin picked up each week. Anything more, tough. You
are supposed to take it down the tip.

If it's a washing machine or similar that you can't dispose of then
you pay the council for them to send a truck out - usually a small
flatbed transit or similar.

PoP

Replying to the email address given by my news reader
will result in your own email address being instantly
added to my anti-spam database! If you really want to
contact me try changing the prefix in the given email
address to my newsgroup posting name.....

On 3 Jan 2004 03:53:25 -0800, (N. Thornton) wrote:




Re the scrapping of decent kit, its a crazy system. A significant
percentage of the stuff doesnt have anything at all wrong with it.
Maybe local authorities could have a warehousing area where folks can
come along and buy stuff for say 2 weeks before it gets landfilled.
Theyd need to emlpoy a safety tester. I gather some tips do this to
some extent, but all should, its just silly to bury such stuff. We
live in a society where most folk are victims to advertising, and
believe they should buy things, throw them away and buy them again. A
bit of education wouldnt go amiss.

I used to do PAT testing for such a project. Biggest problem
technically was cookers, most of which will not pass an insulation
test. Occasionally it's just a faulty ring, but usually all the
internal wiring is leaking, I suspect due to damp and grease
infiltrating the woven high temp insulation used.

But the real problem is cultural, not technical. Those who can least
afford it are the worst for having a real hangup about second hand or
"old" stuff. They'd rather sign up for years of repayments they can't
afford than accept a cheap s/h item even if it's immaculate.

I used to live in a rundown scheme, and I never bought a washing
machine. There was a regular supply of immaculate units left lying in
the common access areas when they developed small faults. If it was
better than the one I had, I'd whip it in and fix it.

--
Niall

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message .1...
On 3 Jan 2004 03:53:25 -0800, N. Thornton wrote:

Maybe local authorities could have a warehousing area where folks
can come along and buy stuff for say 2 weeks before it gets
landfilled.

Have you seen what a standard refuse collection truck does to a
washing machine? Not much resale value after that treatment. B-)

A lot of machines are delivered by their owners to the tip, in a lot
of cases theyre ok. Those that are...

Theyd need to emlpoy a safety tester.

And another collection system

no. Sorry, Im tired.


Regards, NT

On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 15:56:03 +0000, PoP wrote:

Around these parts (we live in an estate like most civilised folks)

Oi, we are perfectly civilised thankyou. We have mains water, mains
electricity, central heating, broadband, inside bathroom *and* toilet.
B-)

If it's a washing machine or similar that you can't dispose of then
you pay the council for them to send a truck out - usually a small
flatbed transit or similar.

One of those trundles around on the regular collection day getting to
the places the big truck cannot reach.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

"Niall" wrote in message
...
On 3 Jan 2004 03:53:25 -0800, (N. Thornton) wrote:

But the real problem is cultural, not technical. Those who can least
afford it are the worst for having a real hangup about second hand or
"old" stuff. They'd rather sign up for years of repayments they can't
afford than accept a cheap s/h item even if it's immaculate.

Sometimes the economics of repairing domestic applainces are very poor. For
example about 12 years ago I bought a Phillips/Whirlpool electric solid plate
hob unit for about £120. This had two fully variable control switches for the
front plates and two six position switches for the rear plates. After 8-10 years
one of the fully variable control switches failed and would only turn the plate
off or on. The cost of a new part was about £70. Given the likely hood of the
other fully variable control switch also failing I was relunctant to carry out
the repair. (Though as a general policy I believe in 'extended product life'.)


Even with a car the cost of relatively minor repairs can equal the 2nd hand
value.

Michael Chare

On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 22:55:55 +0000 (UTC), "Michael Chare"
wrote:

"Niall" wrote in message
...
On 3 Jan 2004 03:53:25 -0800, (N. Thornton) wrote:

But the real problem is cultural, not technical. Those who can least
afford it are the worst for having a real hangup about second hand or
"old" stuff. They'd rather sign up for years of repayments they can't
afford than accept a cheap s/h item even if it's immaculate.

Sometimes the economics of repairing domestic applainces are very poor. For
example about 12 years ago I bought a Phillips/Whirlpool electric solid plate
hob unit for about £120. This had two fully variable control switches for the
front plates and two six position switches for the rear plates. After 8-10 years
one of the fully variable control switches failed and would only turn the plate
off or on. The cost of a new part was about £70. Given the likely hood of the
other fully variable control switch also failing I was relunctant to carry out
the repair. (Though as a general policy I believe in 'extended product life'.)


But in that part of the post I was talking about *working* s/h gear.
Now there's an idea for a useful website; a database of spares prices
for white goods (no I'm not volenteering!). Because it should be a
consideration when buying if you're into extended product life, but
generally you don't find out until it's too late who uses the 70 quid
manufacturer only part and who uses the generic one from the spares
place down the road.
If UK property wasn't such a ridiculous price there would be more
places breaking these things for spares. I know some did exist at one
point.

--
Niall

On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 23:53:28 +0000, Niall wrote:

Now there's an idea for a useful website; a database of spares
prices for white goods (no I'm not volenteering!).

Why bother there are several online suppliers of white goods spares
just use them as a reference. B-)

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

N. Thornton wrote:

PoP wrote in message . ..

On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 21:49:06 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:


And you where going to scrap and buy a new machine just because a 2p
cable tie had given up the ghost. Mind you I bet that there are
hundreds of domestic appliances that are heaved into the back of dust
carts every day with similar simple faults. What a waste of
resources...


There is always a silver lining though!

1: Keeps the dustcart people in work.
2: Keeps the supply chain in work.
3: Keeps the manufacturer in work.

Downside:

4: Keeps one or more sales people in work.


But none of those are plus points. If all the work involved in
manufacturing and disposing of domestic appliances were halved, half
the employees would be available to do more useful work, some of the
stuff we actually do need doing. Short term there'd be job changes,
and as always some would win some would lose, but in the long run we'd
be much better off for it.

You only need to look at practically every example of this happening
through history to see that society becomes better off.



That is a very moot point. We are in an age where most of teh real work
is, and can only be, done by a small minority of people.

Example: its provbably true to say that 99% of all industrial production
could be and should be done by robots.

That way goods would be cheap, and we could all sit there whilst
machines do everything and not work, and have free goods delivered to
our doors. Rifght?

Problem is, you need top quality robost, designed by very skillful and
well educated peple, ou need top quality deigns for them, and so on. So
that model leads to a very few very skilled people doing ALL the work
whiost te rest sit around on the dole.

No whilst I persnonally think that is not unreasonable, and in fact a
country full of state sponsored couch potatoes on heroin would at least
keep the stupid *******s off the roads, some silly socialists have
slammed the idea into peoples heads that there is some 'dignity' in
work, and that peepul have a 'right to work' and that the Only True
Measure of a Mans Worth is the Labour That He Does.

So to perpetuate the myth, its necessary for the system to make pretend
work for wurkahs, so complete morons like IMM can bleat about 'low
unemployment rates' as if this was something to be applauded, when in
fact the natural evolution of post industrial society ought to be to
everyone out of work, but getting paid for it as it were..companies
ought to offer 15 year guarantees on everything, so that enegy isn't
wasted making and distributing the stuff.

In teh industrial revolution, this is precisely what happened - there
was no agricltrural work left to do, and thousands were out of work, but
instead of paying teh *******s to saty where they were and drink
scrumpy, they let them breed like rabbits,m and of course teh factories
were ready with the need for labour, and so the stupid sods ended up as
productin wurkahs in just a s ****ty houses as they had in teh country,
but now even more prone to the diseases of overcrowding and poverty, and
then of course some bright spark dreamt up unions, and the rest is
history, culminating in wet socialism as we see today.


As ususal th esoltin is totally obvious, but completely unacceptable to
the brainwashed population, so intead of visoon and action, it will be a
fumbling bloody mess for the next 60 years whilst the inevitable happens
with far more human misery than needs be...but thats people for you.
Dumb as dip****.

You know, I was in south africa a little befoire Apartheid cracked up.
Another stupid system. I asked the Zulku giy I worked with what the ANC
and the Revoultion meant to him 'Why baas, come the Revolution they (the
cuban trained agitators in the townships) say that instead of the white
man having all the swimming pools we will all have swimming pools!"

Mmm. In a population of 25 milion black, and 5 million white, in a
fairly arid counry I pointed out to him that there was not, in fact,
enough water to give every black man a flush toilet.

Well, they had their revoulution, and now they all have AIDS, because
AIDS and HIV is an inventin of the White Mans Propaganda Machine, and I
left years ago, because what happened was inevitable, and not my fight
on either side. When you see **** happening, and you know that no power
on eath can stop it, you just get out of the way.

Now every time I hear IMM, I think of that Zulu gentleman.....and every
time I hear George Bush, I hear the Afrikaaners leaders...hanging on to
a lost dream in the face of the inevitable, and every time I hear Tony
Bliar, I think of teh cuban trained agitators...



Re the scrapping of decent kit, its a crazy system. A significant
percentage of the stuff doesnt have anything at all wrong with it.
Maybe local authorities could have a warehousing area where folks can
come along and buy stuff for say 2 weeks before it gets landfilled.


They do. At our council dump you can take what you want if you tip the
staff...


Theyd need to emlpoy a safety tester. I gather some tips do this to
some extent, but all should, its just silly to bury such stuff. We
live in a society where most folk are victims to advertising, and
believe they should buy things, throw them away and buy them again. A
bit of education wouldnt go amiss.


Indeed. But we gets lots of edcation. We get educated into believing in
a consumer lifetstyle and socialist principles. The fact that its a
crock of ****, doesn't mean its not education.

Its just not education as we know it, Jim.




Regards, NT

PoP wrote:


Around these parts (we live in an estate like most civilised folks)
you get one green bin picked up each week. Anything more, tough. You
are supposed to take it down the tip.


Thats right, this burning (in my case) about a gallon of diesel and
wasting an hour and a half for the privilege of the paid council workers
doing it at a fraction of the cost to the environment.


Take the MOT failure. What to do?

(i) Take it to a scrappy, and pay him 50 quid to take it away.
(ii) Take it to the council and pay a similar amount.
(iii) drive it up the common, take the plates off it and set fire to it.
Free to me. Council then pays a couple of hundred quid of taxpayers
money to do what they should have done in teh first place. Take it away
and scrap it.

Takle recycliong. How many gallons of fossil fuel are burnt taking
bottles to bottle banks, vcardboard to cardboard banks, green waste to
composting plants, wood to pulping plants and so on. About three times
as much as is saved by recycling mostly.

Its been proved somewhere that actually the most energy efficient thing
to do is take all the rubbish, strip out anything markedly toxic, burn
the rest, scrubbing the last few bits of nasty out of the flue gasses,
and bury whats left over.

And maybe concentrate on NOT having so much rubbish in teh first place.
Like all modern problems the answer lies in not tinkering, but going to
the heart of the problem.

Peole should saty at home, not buy things, not go to work, and not
educate the kids at all. That way they might have time to find out whats
really worthwile, amnd meanwhile the trash level comes down, the roads
are free of traffic, and life is better all round.



If it's a washing machine or similar that you can't dispose of then
you pay the council for them to send a truck out - usually a small
flatbed transit or similar.


No, you just heave it in the back of your car and chuck it in a layby.
Cheaper. Council will send a flatbed out to it anyway.

Michael Chare wrote:

"Niall" wrote in message
...

On 3 Jan 2004 03:53:25 -0800, (N. Thornton) wrote:


But the real problem is cultural, not technical. Those who can least
afford it are the worst for having a real hangup about second hand or
"old" stuff. They'd rather sign up for years of repayments they can't
afford than accept a cheap s/h item even if it's immaculate.


Sometimes the economics of repairing domestic applainces are very poor. For
example about 12 years ago I bought a Phillips/Whirlpool electric solid plate
hob unit for about £120. This had two fully variable control switches for the
front plates and two six position switches for the rear plates. After 8-10 years
one of the fully variable control switches failed and would only turn the plate
off or on. The cost of a new part was about £70. Given the likely hood of the
other fully variable control switch also failing I was relunctant to carry out
the repair. (Though as a general policy I believe in 'extended product life'.)


Even with a car the cost of relatively minor repairs can equal the 2nd hand
value.


Precisely. That is because labour rates are far too high, and robots
make the things. Thats skews production - repair labour costs. And
marketing does not want to sell parts, but new machines.
The move to make manufacturers responsible for DISPOSAL of their broken
kit, may not work either. Loads will go bust.

What is probably teh ay of teh future is leased kit. You sign up for a
'guaranteed washing machine service of quality X' and if it breaks, they
take it, fix it and re-lease it. Just like we used to do with tellies.



Michael Chare

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes

Thats right, this burning (in my case) about a gallon of diesel and
wasting an hour and a half for the privilege of the paid council
workers doing it at a fraction of the cost to the environment.


Take the MOT failure. What to do?

(i) Take it to a scrappy, and pay him 50 quid to take it away.
(ii) Take it to the council and pay a similar amount.
(iii) drive it up the common, take the plates off it and set fire to
it. Free to me. Council then pays a couple of hundred quid of taxpayers
money to do what they should have done in teh first place. Take it away
and scrap it.

So are you going to grind the VIN off it then?


Takle recycliong. How many gallons of fossil fuel are burnt taking
bottles to bottle banks, vcardboard to cardboard banks, green waste to
composting plants, wood to pulping plants and so on. About three times
as much as is saved by recycling mostly.

Its been proved somewhere that actually the most energy efficient thing
to do is take all the rubbish, strip out anything markedly toxic, burn
the rest, scrubbing the last few bits of nasty out of the flue gasses,
and bury whats left over.

Except that we're running out of places to bury it and there are EU
directives which have to be followed by the councils


And maybe concentrate on NOT having so much rubbish in teh first place.
Like all modern problems the answer lies in not tinkering, but going to
the heart of the problem.

Can't argue with that


--
geoff

On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 20:26:08 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

Around these parts (we live in an estate like most civilised folks)

Oi, we are perfectly civilised thankyou. We have mains water, mains
electricity, central heating, broadband, inside bathroom *and* toilet.
B-)

No offence intended, honest guv. And I dream of an "uncivilised"
lifestyle which involves living in the sticks, maybe a village with a
pub, post office and not much else, so I can't be that insulting about
it.....

PoP

Replying to the email address given by my news reader
will result in your own email address being instantly
added to my anti-spam database! If you really want to
contact me try changing the prefix in the given email
address to my newsgroup posting name.....

On Sun, 4 Jan 2004 02:06:02 +0000, geoff wrote:

So are you going to grind the VIN off it then?

The last time I looked the VIN is just on a plate and few pop rivets,
in more than one place though. The engine number will probably need
the application of an angle grinder though. B-)

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Sun, 4 Jan 2004 02:06:02 +0000, geoff wrote:


So are you going to grind the VIN off it then?


The last time I looked the VIN is just on a plate and few pop rivets,
in more than one place though. The engine number will probably need
the application of an angle grinder though. B-)



Frankly I don't think te council cares. After all you just have to say
'I sold that 6 months ago for 50 quid cash, and the bloke said he lived
in Leeds' and there's an end to it. No proof.

How do I know? Because I did sell one once for 50 quid cash, and had the
police knocking at my door a few weeks later cos the diddy's who bought
it used it to joyride around then stripped it and torched it.

PoP wrote:

On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 20:26:08 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:


Around these parts (we live in an estate like most civilised folks)

Oi, we are perfectly civilised thankyou. We have mains water, mains
electricity, central heating, broadband, inside bathroom *and* toilet.
B-)


No offence intended, honest guv. And I dream of an "uncivilised"
lifestyle which involves living in the sticks, maybe a village with a
pub, post office and not much else, so I can't be that insulting about
it.....



I have to say, that I would say thatestates are the refuge of the
uncivilised. In teh common use of te word.

Of course strictly it means 'citified' so any counry dweller is of
course proudly uncivilised....


PoP

Replying to the email address given by my news reader
will result in your own email address being instantly
added to my anti-spam database! If you really want to
contact me try changing the prefix in the given email
address to my newsgroup posting name.....

"geoff" wrote
| (iii) drive it up the common, take the plates off it and set
| fire to it. Free to me. Council then pays a couple of hundred
| quid of taxpayers money to do what they should have done in
| teh first place. Take it away and scrap it.
| So are you going to grind the VIN off it then?

I could not possibly advocate anyone doing such a thing one night and then
reporting their car "stolen" when they "wake up in the morning", let alone
claiming on the insurance for it.

Owain

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
'I sold that 6 months ago for 50 quid cash, and the bloke said he
lived in Leeds' and there's an end to it. No proof.

How do I know? Because I did sell one once for 50 quid cash, and had
the police knocking at my door a few weeks later cos the diddy's who

And as recently tightened up legislation points out, the last registered
keeper is the one with the responsibility, and therefore gets any fines etc.
It's now also £1k for failure to report a change in ownership.
Chances of any of these fines being levied is probably slim, but the bill to
clear up 'your' car?

--
Toby.

'One day son, all this will be finished'

The Natural Philosopher wrote in message ...
N. Thornton wrote: PoP wrote in message news: "Dave Liquorice":

And you where going to scrap and buy a new machine just because a 2p
cable tie had given up the ghost. Mind you I bet that there are
hundreds of domestic appliances that are heaved into the back of dust
carts every day with similar simple faults. What a waste of
resources...


There is always a silver lining though!

1: Keeps the dustcart people in work.
2: Keeps the supply chain in work.
3: Keeps the manufacturer in work.

Downside:

4: Keeps one or more sales people in work.


But none of those are plus points. If all the work involved in
manufacturing and disposing of domestic appliances were halved, half
the employees would be available to do more useful work, some of the
stuff we actually do need doing. Short term there'd be job changes,
and as always some would win some would lose, but in the long run we'd
be much better off for it.

You only need to look at practically every example of this happening
through history to see that society becomes better off.


That is a very moot point. We are in an age where most of teh real work
is, and can only be, done by a small minority of people.

Example: its provbably true to say that 99% of all industrial production
could be and should be done by robots.

That way goods would be cheap, and we could all sit there whilst
machines do everything and not work, and have free goods delivered to
our doors. Rifght?

Problem is, you need top quality robost, designed by very skillful and
well educated peple, ou need top quality deigns for them, and so on. So
that model leads to a very few very skilled people doing ALL the work
whiost te rest sit around on the dole.

Youre missing something, which is that we do already have most of the
work done by machines, and the change from hand manufacture to todays
mechanised methods is an exact parallel to the change youre
discussing. And the results are not as you say, the real results a

1. much better standard of living for everyone
2. many more hands available to do important speculative work, ie
research.
3. a rise in the level of skill required of all workers
4. this being met by improved education
5. Shorter working week
6. More resources for other important matters such as health care etc
etc etc
7. Enough surplus to be able to set up a welfare system so no-one need
starve or do desperate things to survive.

Quite simply, everyone wins in the end. Just see the parallel, and see
where your predictions are amiss.


No whilst I persnonally think that is not unreasonable, and in fact a
country full of state sponsored couch potatoes on heroin would at least
keep the stupid *******s off the roads,

there is loads that needs doing but we cant to afford to right now.
Today our society is too busy spending its time money and materials on
stupid stuff. Couch potatoes will not be the way forward.

some silly socialists have
slammed the idea into peoples heads that there is some 'dignity' in
work,

there is I know that from experience.

and that peepul have a 'right to work' and that the Only True
Measure of a Mans Worth is the Labour That He Does.

dunno about that.

So to perpetuate the myth, its necessary for the system to make pretend
work for wurkahs,

no, this is right off. The system needs more resources, including
human work resources. Many die today due to lack of said resources, by
the million.

so complete morons like IMM can bleat about 'low
unemployment rates' as if this was something to be applauded,

it is, wasting our valuable resources is not sensible. But employment
can also be a waste, so its not employment rate as such that matters
most, but useful employment rate.

when in
fact the natural evolution of post industrial society ought to be to
everyone out of work, but getting paid for it as it were..

If we ever reach the point where all our needs are met, then maybe.
But we are a very long way from that. There is a huge reservoir of
suffering and death, even in wealthy countries, due to our present
limitations of resources in all areas.

companies
ought to offer 15 year guarantees on everything, so that enegy isn't
wasted making and distributing the stuff.

not computers, or other obsolescent items. Someone else proposed
mandatory product marking with average life expectancy, which sounds
interesting. How one could practically do it is another question.

The Japanese made great strides forward in this area by passing a law
for all faulty goods to be repaired on site, thus driving up repair
costs greatly, and thus encouraging higher reliability goods. Given
the great advances this has made, laws in this general vein may well
be a way forward. This reduction in breakdowns of course is a major
asset all round.

In teh industrial revolution, this is precisely what happened - there
was no agricltrural work left to do, and thousands were out of work,

no no no, thousands were out of one job and into another. Or millions.

but
instead of paying teh *******s to saty where they were and drink
scrumpy, they let them breed like rabbits,m and of course teh factories
were ready with the need for labour, and so the stupid sods ended up as
productin wurkahs

in just a s ****ty houses as they had in teh country,
but now even more prone to the diseases of overcrowding and poverty, and
then of course some bright spark dreamt up unions, and the rest is
history, culminating in wet socialism as we see today.

so that cycle of change resulted in us all being better off. Not
perfect, but better off.


As ususal th esoltin is totally obvious, but completely unacceptable to
the brainwashed population,

Do tell what your vision is.

so intead of visoon and action, it will be a
fumbling bloody mess for the next 60 years whilst the inevitable happens
with far more human misery than needs be...but thats people for you.
Dumb as dip****.

been that way a fair while now. And its partly due to shortage of one
of our resources, intelligence. Few seem to understand that that is a
key issue for society today, and few are working on it. At some point
enough of society will become intelligent and informed enough to
realise that this is a core issue, and one of the most important
research areas to concentrate on. Then we will start to see much
faster progress. I'm assuming you know of the Flynn effect.


You know, I was in south africa a little befoire Apartheid cracked up.

Well, they had their revoulution, and now they all have AIDS,

no, only a minority do

because
AIDS and HIV is an inventin of the White Mans Propaganda Machine,

I thought that idea had been debunked now. If not, what is it that
those diagnosed with aids die from? And why?

And I thought it was because of sharing medical needles, lack of
resources, poorer nutrition, and lack of information. AFAIK propaganda
doesnt give people aids.



Re the scrapping of decent kit, its a crazy system. A significant
percentage of the stuff doesnt have anything at all wrong with it.
Maybe local authorities could have a warehousing area where folks can
come along and buy stuff for say 2 weeks before it gets landfilled.

They do. At our council dump you can take what you want if you tip the
staff...

This needs to happen across the board and openly, and be publicised,
so anyone can go wander round and buy. Result: far more re-use. It is
very much in society's interests that most sound equipment is reused.


Theyd need to emlpoy a safety tester. I gather some tips do this to
some extent, but all should, its just silly to bury such stuff. We
live in a society where most folk are victims to advertising, and
believe they should buy things, throw them away and buy them again. A
bit of education wouldnt go amiss.

Indeed. But we gets lots of edcation. We get educated into believing in
a consumer lifetstyle and socialist principles. The fact that its a
crock of ****, doesn't mean its not education.

Its just not education as we know it, Jim.

Its misinformation through advertising. We need genuine education so
they dont believe anything they see, which currently too many do.


Regards, NT

On Sun, 4 Jan 2004 02:06:02 +0000, geoff wrote:



Except that we're running out of places to bury it


This is not true.

--
Niall

The Natural Philosopher wrote in message ...
Michael Chare wrote:

Even with a car the cost of relatively minor repairs can equal the 2nd hand
value.

Precisely. That is because labour rates are far too high, and robots
make the things. Thats skews production - repair labour costs.

Yes at present. In principle it should be possible to come up with
robots smart enough to tackle repair job analysis, one day. They'll
stick their tentacles on a board, figure out what it does, where its
going wrong, analyse the schematic, do the tests, and tell you what
bit to replace.

If you think thats far ferthched, it'll happen. Look how far computers
have come already.


And
marketing does not want to sell parts, but new machines.

Once we see repair robots, they can work at the landfill tips where
there is no need for parts suppliers. They will use whatever parts are
to hand, (chosen by the robot that logs what comes in, by itself) and
any item with no suitable part will just be buried. Same way car
scrapyards work.


The move to make manufacturers responsible for DISPOSAL of their broken
kit, may not work either. Loads will go bust.

Presumably some will intentionally operate, close down, restart under
another name, close down...

But even when the mfr is responsible for disposal, it would still
rather sell 2 than 1, in many cases.


What is probably teh ay of teh future is leased kit. You sign up for a
'guaranteed washing machine service of quality X' and if it breaks, they
take it, fix it and re-lease it. Just like we used to do with tellies.

I hope not, thats a real ripoff strategy. Only folks unable to do
basic maths go that route. I think all we really need do is stop being
stupid. Landfilling working equipment is stupid.


Regards, NT

Toby wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

'I sold that 6 months ago for 50 quid cash, and the bloke said he
lived in Leeds' and there's an end to it. No proof.

How do I know? Because I did sell one once for 50 quid cash, and had
the police knocking at my door a few weeks later cos the diddy's who


And as recently tightened up legislation points out, the last registered
keeper is the one with the responsibility, and therefore gets any fines etc.
It's now also £1k for failure to report a change in ownership.
Chances of any of these fines being levied is probably slim, but the bill to
clear up 'your' car?


So you send in a change of ownership to 'Mtr Diddicoy, Burnt Fen,
Cambs...wait a month nad THEN torch it.

Not your fault the bloke doesn't seem to exist, honest gov!

Owain wrote:

"geoff" wrote
| (iii) drive it up the common, take the plates off it and set
| fire to it. Free to me. Council then pays a couple of hundred
| quid of taxpayers money to do what they should have done in
| teh first place. Take it away and scrap it.
| So are you going to grind the VIN off it then?

I could not possibly advocate anyone doing such a thing one night and then
reporting their car "stolen" when they "wake up in the morning", let alone
claiming on the insurance for it.


Yah. I know a bloke who did exactly that. Found a place at least 3 miles
from a public phone, frayed the petrol pipe off the carbs, and torched it.

The police and the insurance all agreed that type of car was prone (when
old) to frayed petrol pipes and paid up...that's also the bloke who
created a company and had a chum create another one, then they wrote
each other cheques till their turnover was in tens of thousands a month,
and went to the bank to get an overdraft based on turnover, to start the
business. Last I saw he was in Nigeria, doing some other dodgy deal, and
looked like he was dying of AIDS. Which, given his sexual orientation,
would not surprise me....

There's nowt as queer as (Essex) folk :-)



Owain