A few months ago I was looking for a 165mm mains circular saw & ended up
with a Macalister from B&Q for £45. Spec looked good for the money.

Less than 3 months old, relatively little use & it started playing up.

Cross cutting a 2 x 4 & it started to fight back badly, could only just hang
on to it.

Appears that the bearing on the shaft had gone, causing the blade to wobble
like a dado head.

It went back for a full refund this morning. I've ordered a Makita 5604R.

I should know better by now. Last time I buy any kind of B&Q power tool.


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

It's interesting to see over the months how you've come round to
buying pro tools. I think your road to Damascus was when you finally
tried an impact driver.

wrote:
It's interesting to see over the months how you've come round to
buying pro tools. I think your road to Damascus was when you finally
tried an impact driver.

I'm amused by your comment ( no reflection on TMH). Provided that you
control an impact driver properly, it is useful. Do not be prissy with
it. Ensure that you put significant pressure on it before striking it.

wrote:
It's interesting to see over the months how you've come round to
buying pro tools. I think your road to Damascus was when you finally
tried an impact driver.

Yes, agreed. It was actually the Makita jigsaw, reinforced by the Makita
impact driver. I won't buy anything but Makita from now on, it's just so
good and 'does exactly what is says on the tin'.

You just don't realise the difference until you use the kit every day. It's
not just the longevity, its the way they do the job.


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

clot wrote:
wrote:
It's interesting to see over the months how you've come round to
buying pro tools. I think your road to Damascus was when you finally
tried an impact driver.

I'm amused by your comment ( no reflection on TMH). Provided that you
control an impact driver properly, it is useful. Do not be prissy with
it. Ensure that you put significant pressure on it before striking it.

We are talking electric impact drivers
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...43 8&ts=74156


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

The Medway Handyman wrote:
clot wrote:
wrote:
It's interesting to see over the months how you've come round to
buying pro tools. I think your road to Damascus was when you finally
tried an impact driver.

I'm amused by your comment ( no reflection on TMH). Provided that you
control an impact driver properly, it is useful. Do not be prissy
with it. Ensure that you put significant pressure on it before
striking it.

We are talking electric impact drivers
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...43 8&ts=74156


I wondered if someone would come back with that comment. It is still
critical to ensure that you put enough pressure on the appliance whether
manual or otherwise powered. If you do not put pressure on it then you
have a small useless bowl!

The Medway Handyman wrote:
wrote:
It's interesting to see over the months how you've come round to
buying pro tools. I think your road to Damascus was when you finally
tried an impact driver.

Yes, agreed. It was actually the Makita jigsaw, reinforced by the Makita
impact driver. I won't buy anything but Makita from now on, it's just so
good and 'does exactly what is says on the tin'.

Its certainly a safe way to know you will get something that is at a
minimum "good" and will last (and I have never been disappointed with
any of my Makita kit), but don't discount the other quality brands since
each will have tools that come out as "best of breed".

For example, the Makita portable planar thicknesser is a very good
machine, but I think my DeWalt DW733 has the edge on it in a number of
small but important details. The big 9" Hitachi circular saws are very
nice, as are Trend and Freud routers etc.

You just don't realise the difference until you use the kit every day. It's
not just the longevity, its the way they do the job.

I think the jigsaw test is an ideal way to convince anyone who doubts
the value of decent tools. The Makita in particular is just *so* much
better than most peoples experience of a jigsaw as to be really quite
surprising even if you are expecting it to be lots better.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Jun 29, 11:41 am, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:

I won't buy anything but Makita from now on, it's just so
good and 'does exactly what is says on the tin'.

You just don't realise the difference until you use the kit every day. It's
not just the longevity, its the way they do the job.

I will never buy a Makita product.
This recall notice is a lie. A user in New Zealand lost an eye when
his sander pad broke apart, and Makita didn't want to compensate him
until forced to by public opinion..
Losing an eye is NOT a "minor injury".

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml03/03091.html

In cooperation with the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission
(CPSC), Makita U.S.A. Inc., of La Mirada, Calif., is voluntarily
recalling about 350,000 electric orbit sanders. The pads on the
sanders can break apart during use and strike the operator, posing an
injury hazard to consumers.

Makita U.S.A. Inc. has received 13 reports of pads coming apart,
including three minor injuries that resulted from pieces of the pad
striking consumers.

On 2007-06-29 07:58:33 +0100, Matty F said:

On Jun 29, 11:41 am, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:

I won't buy anything but Makita from now on, it's just so
good and 'does exactly what is says on the tin'.

You just don't realise the difference until you use the kit every day. It's
not just the longevity, its the way they do the job.

I will never buy a Makita product.
This recall notice is a lie. A user in New Zealand lost an eye when
his sander pad broke apart, and Makita didn't want to compensate him
until forced to by public opinion..
Losing an eye is NOT a "minor injury".

Presumably the user was using eye protection as recommended in the
instruction manual?

Matty F wrote:

You just don't realise the difference until you use the kit every day. It's
not just the longevity, its the way they do the job.

I will never buy a Makita product.

Your loss I guess.

This recall notice is a lie. A user in New Zealand lost an eye when
his sander pad broke apart, and Makita didn't want to compensate him
until forced to by public opinion..
Losing an eye is NOT a "minor injury".

You need to read it a little more carefully. It says "Makita U.S.A. Inc.
has received 13 reports of pads coming apart, including three minor
injuries". It seems unlikely that a New Zealand user would have
reported a problem to Makita USA. So it is probably true, that they have
only had minor injuries reported, and that the recall is voluntary in
the USA.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

A user in New Zealand lost an eye when
his sander pad broke apart, and Makita didn't want to compensate him
until forced to by public opinion..
Losing an eye is NOT a "minor injury".

Have you got a link to the original report on that?

On 29 Jun, 00:41, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:

Yes, agreed. It was actually the Makita jigsaw, reinforced by the Makita
impact driver. I won't buy anything but Makita from now on, it's just so
good and 'does exactly what is says on the tin'.

I use a mix of Makita and Hitachi big circular saws. Haven't bust the
Makitas yet, I'm forever having to dismantle almost all of the
Hitachis to bend the damned splitters straight again.

I used to like Skil, until they went rubbish a couple of years ago.

I use a mix of Makita and Hitachi big circular saws. Haven't bust the
Makitas yet, I'm forever having to dismantle almost all of the
Hitachis to bend the damned splitters straight again.

I used to like Skil, until they went rubbish a couple of years ago.

You say splitter rather than riving knife - are you talking about Skil
in the US market?

My experience of Skil has been ok. I used to have a 10 year old
compact 160mm Skil CC I used for panels, and bought a Skil Orca about
2 years ago (same product with updates still available).

The older one had a nicer cast aluminium base plate, but otherwise
very similar build quality.

The Orca certainly hasn't been treated gently - lots of deep ripping
in green oak.

If I was spending my money again, I might scrape together the (quite a
bit of) extra cash required for festool or maffel - for those jobs
where really high quality accurate cuts are required but the job is
fixed or too big or too awkward for a tablesaw.

"clot" wrote in message
...
The Medway Handyman wrote:
clot wrote:
wrote:
It's interesting to see over the months how you've come round to
buying pro tools. I think your road to Damascus was when you
finally
tried an impact driver.

I'm amused by your comment ( no reflection on TMH). Provided that
you
control an impact driver properly, it is useful. Do not be prissy
with it. Ensure that you put significant pressure on it before
striking it.

We are talking electric impact drivers
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...43 8&ts=74156


I wondered if someone would come back with that comment. It is still
critical to ensure that you put enough pressure on the appliance
whether manual or otherwise powered. If you do not put pressure on
it then you have a small useless bowl!

Indeed, having spent more years than I care to remember using power
impact wrenches it's very noticeable how the amount of pressure
applied to the tool has an effect on how effective the impact wrench
is - it's also extremely funny to watch an inexperienced person see
the tool jump off the fixing when they forget to hold the tool down
upon pressing the trigger!

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in
message ...
snip

You just don't realise the difference until you use the kit every
day. It's not just the longevity, its the way they do the job.


Isn't that the point here, whilst all groups benefit from having
semi-pro and fully pro people from the trades, what is often forgotten
by those same people is that they might in a month use a tool more
than an average DIYer does in a year - IOW if the DIYer is going to
build their own house than the expense of buying pro tools makes sense
how ever you look at it but for someone who just does the odd DIY job
around it doesn't, the price certainly reflects the build quality but
not always the accuracy during the tools designed life span (which
will be measured in operating hours).

On Jun 29, 8:57 pm, " wrote:
A user in New Zealand lost an eye when
his sander pad broke apart, and Makita didn't want to compensate him
until forced to by public opinion..
Losing an eye is NOT a "minor injury".

Have you got a link to the original report on that?

Newspaper reports have now vanished from their archives.
I note that the eye-losing accident occurred many months after the
recall was announced in the US on March 7 2003. In NZ we cannot claim
against manufacturers for such accidents, so it is not considered so
necessary to publicise recalls. But that would have saved the guy's
eye.

Here's a Usenet discussion with all the points that are sure to be
made:
http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz....ddfbcd60fbcea0

"Matty F" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Jun 29, 8:57 pm, " wrote:
A user in New Zealand lost an eye when
his sander pad broke apart, and Makita didn't want to compensate
him
until forced to by public opinion..
Losing an eye is NOT a "minor injury".

Have you got a link to the original report on that?

Newspaper reports have now vanished from their archives.
I note that the eye-losing accident occurred many months after the
recall was announced in the US on March 7 2003. In NZ we cannot
claim
against manufacturers for such accidents, so it is not considered so
necessary to publicise recalls. But that would have saved the guy's
eye.


So would have wearing eye protection...

On 2007-06-29 10:58:41 +0100, Matty F said:

On Jun 29, 8:57 pm, " wrote:
A user in New Zealand lost an eye when
his sander pad broke apart, and Makita didn't want to compensate him
until forced to by public opinion..
Losing an eye is NOT a "minor injury".

Have you got a link to the original report on that?

Newspaper reports have now vanished from their archives.
I note that the eye-losing accident occurred many months after the
recall was announced in the US on March 7 2003. In NZ we cannot claim
against manufacturers for such accidents, so it is not considered so
necessary to publicise recalls. But that would have saved the guy's
eye.

Here's a Usenet discussion with all the points that are sure to be
made:
http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz....ddfbcd60fbcea0

...

and did he follow the manufacturer's instructions about wearing eye protection?

Why would they pay anything if he didn't?

Have you got a link to the original report on that?

Here's a Usenet discussion with all the points that are sure to be
made:http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz....thread/e25b1af...

Looking at the original thread,

http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz....9c2cf8aff6b254

there seems to be just one person with an axe to grind, whilst the
other posters disagree with him.

Are you and "Pete" the same person?

On Jun 29, 11:27 pm, " wrote:
Have you got a link to the original report on that?

Here's a Usenet discussion with all the points that are sure to be
made:http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz....thread/e25b1af...

Looking at the original thread,

http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz....ad/thread/8d7c...

there seems to be just one person with an axe to grind, whilst the
other posters disagree with him.

Are you and "Pete" the same person?

No I don't know who Pete is. I think most of New Zealand would agree
that Makita badly stuffed up their handling of that case.

Do some of you guys sell or work for Makita? I only got involved in
this because of comments such as these:

"I won't buy anything but Makita from now on, it's just so good and
'does exactly what is says on the tin'."

"Its certainly a safe way to know you will get something that is at a
minimum "good" and will last (and I have never been disappointed with
any of my Makita kit)".

To refute that completely I refer you to some of Makita recalls. I
suggest that everybody check for recalls for all of their power tools.

-----------------------------
PRODUCT RECALL: Makita 7-inch Angle Grinders

Makita U.S.A. Inc., of La Mirada, Calif. has announced a voluntary
recall of Makita 7-inch Angle Grinder.
Consumers should stop using the recalled products immediately unless
otherwise instructed.
The guards on some of these angle grinders will not fully cover a
hubbed grinding wheel. As a result, if the hubbed grinding wheel comes
apart during use, it could hit the user, possibly causing serious
personal injury.
The recall only involves Makita GA7011C 7-inch angle grinders.
-----------------------------------
TITLE: CPSC, Makita U.S.A. Inc. Announce Recall of Chain Saws

Name of Product: Makita Chain Saws
Units: About 3,400 units
Distributor: Makita U.S.A. Inc., of La Mirada, Calif.
Manufactured in: Germany
Hazard: The flywheels on some of the chain saws can come apart during
use, which could cause serious personal injury.
--------------------------------------
Makita Circular Saw Recall

In the interest of end user safety Makita Australia is undertaking a
voluntary recall of circular saw models 5606B, 5806B, 5740NB for
modification of the saw blade guard assembly.
----------------------------------------

Do some of you guys sell or work for Makita? I only got involved in
this because of comments such as these:

"I won't buy anything but Makita from now on, it's just so good and
'does exactly what is says on the tin'."

"Its certainly a safe way to know you will get something that is at a
minimum "good" and will last (and I have never been disappointed with
any of my Makita kit)".

I don't work for Makita and have no connection with them other than
owning a couple of pieces of kit from them with which I'm very
satisfied.

Comparable manufacturers, Bosch and Dewalt also have product recalls -
on at least as serious safety-related defects:

http://www.boschtools.com/product-se...ations/CS1020/

(blade guard may stick open on circular saw)

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml07/07068.html

(short circuit may cause fire on reciprocating saw)

Your issue with Makita seems to be both the quality of the tools and
that they didn't pay adequate compensation in respect to an incident
in NZ.

Quality is on a par with other pro tool manufacturers - I would think
(from seeing what people around me use) Makita have about 50% of the
pro cordless drill market. They wouldn't have that unless those tools
had proved themselves safe, reliable, durable and effective in the
long term with large numbers of professional users.

As far as the compensation issue goes, there seems to be some aspect
of NZ law that is distinctly different "ACC", that many of the posters
on the original thread referred to - can you explain what this means?

"Matty F" wrote in message
ups.com...
snip
Do some of you guys sell or work for Makita? I only got involved in
this because of comments such as these:


Are you related to the idio... sorry, chap, who wasn't wearing his
safety goggles?

On 2007-06-29 14:08:45 +0100, Matty F said:

On Jun 29, 11:27 pm, " wrote:
Have you got a link to the original report on that?

Here's a Usenet discussion with all the points that are sure to be
made:http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz....thread/e25b1af...

Looking at the original thread,

http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz....ad/thread/8d7c...

there seems to be just one person with an axe to grind, whilst the
other posters disagree with him.

Are you and "Pete" the same person?

No I don't know who Pete is. I think most of New Zealand would agree
that Makita badly stuffed up their handling of that case.

On a PR basis, possibly. However, this doesn't address the issue that
the user clearly didn't follow the manufacturer's instructions
regarding safety glasses. Makita could quite reasonably have said
that the product instructions weren't followed and therefore tough
titty for the user. In the event, a payment could only be regarded
as a good will gesture and not a question of product liability.



Do some of you guys sell or work for Makita? I only got involved in
this because of comments such as these:

"I won't buy anything but Makita from now on, it's just so good and
'does exactly what is says on the tin'."

"Its certainly a safe way to know you will get something that is at a
minimum "good" and will last (and I have never been disappointed with
any of my Makita kit)".

To refute that completely I refer you to some of Makita recalls. I
suggest that everybody check for recalls for all of their power tools.

If you look at the complete picture, you will find that virtually all
of the tool manufacturers have 20-30 product recall notices. There
are some far worse ones from this related to products such as Ryobi
where blades fly off of radial arm saws because the motor casings fell
apart.

I always look at product recall notices before buying any power tool.
It's a fact of life that occasionally there are manufacturing,
material and even design defects. The obvious thing then to do is to
investigate whether there is a generic problem - i.e. do all Makita
palm sanders have a similar problem and have steps been taken to
address this if so.

One should also look further. For example, does the defect cause a
problem or risk of injury if used in accordance with the maker's
instructions or only if they are ignored. The sander would only
cause serious (e.g. eye) injury to anyone stupid enough not to have
read the instructions. The radial arm saw could cause serious injury
even with all of the recommended safety precautions.

Context is important. Compare with the car industry. Some years
ago, Ford attempted to suppress recall and rework of the Pinto in the
United States. This car had a defect whereby if the rear end was
shunted, there was a possibility that the fuel tank would be ruptured
and ignited by damage to the wiring for the central locking system - in
other words, barbecued occupants. Ford calculated that it would be
cheaper to pay compensation to the unfortunate punters than to recall
and rework all the cars. Clearly that isn't reasonable. OTOH,
nobody would reasonably expect successfully to sue a car manufacturer
for injury in an accident when he hadn't been wearing a seatbelt.

Nonetheless, the original comments are perfectly reasonable. The
major branded tool manufacturers (Bosch, DeWalt, Makita, Metabo,
Hitachi, Festool, Fein, Lamello and one or two others) do make quality
products which generally do do a better job than the Chinese labeled
generics, last longer and are servicable for longer.

Does this mean that they are perfect under all circumstances? Of course not.

There is a price and volume factor as well.

If you look on the CPSC web site, you won't find recall notices for
Festool, Fein and Lamello. However, these manufacturers are at the
top of the market and sell in relatively small volumes without price as
the major issue.

You may wish to look for a post from some time back in this group where
somebody managed to set fire to his trousers with a cheap angle grinder
falling apart.

The number and severity of recalls and potential injuries, even when
used in accordance with the instructions is related to the market
position of the manufacturer. Again if you look at Ryobi (which is in
the low middle part of the market) you will find that many of their
recall notices relate to issues that could cause injury even if the
product is used correctly.

Finally one has to consider the notification mechanisms. All of the
branded tool manufacturers have a product registration arrangement,
with some such as Bosch and Festool offering incentives such as extra
warranty for so doing. Of course, part of this is for marketing, but
it also allows the manufacturer proactively to contact the user in the
event of a product defect or recall. Certainly they do that. I
don't have any confidence that a volume retailer with a private labeled
Chinese generic would take the trouble to do so. Occasionally there
are odd photocopied notices up in stores but little more.

Matty F wrote:

No I don't know who Pete is. I think most of New Zealand would agree
that Makita badly stuffed up their handling of that case.

Not having seen any of the public comment I don't see that I can
comment. However I understand the legal situation in NZ is different
from most places. It may well be the Makita could have handled the
situation better, I am sure they are not immune from lame PR in some
circumstances. However I would not expect them to take responsibility
or accept any liability unless they had to, and especially if the user
was not using the product in accordance with instructions.

Do some of you guys sell or work for Makita?

Personally, no.

I only got involved in
this because of comments such as these:

"I won't buy anything but Makita from now on, it's just so good and
'does exactly what is says on the tin'."

"Its certainly a safe way to know you will get something that is at a
minimum "good" and will last (and I have never been disappointed with
any of my Makita kit)".

To refute that completely I refer you to some of Makita recalls. I
suggest that everybody check for recalls for all of their power tools.

-----------------------------
PRODUCT RECALL: Makita 7-inch Angle Grinders

TITLE: CPSC, Makita U.S.A. Inc. Announce Recall of Chain Saws

Makita Circular Saw Recall

That does not in anyway "refute" either of the comments made above.

All manufacturers will have problems with specific products from time to
time. The fact that they do issue recalls when problems are found only
helps strengthen their reputation.

The sander in question I note had sold 350,000 units in the US over a 11
year period and they had received 13 reports of problems with the pad.
This does not sound like a particularly high failure rate.

--
Cheers,

John.

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\================================================= ================/

:Jerry: wrote:

Isn't that the point here, whilst all groups benefit from having
semi-pro and fully pro people from the trades, what is often forgotten
by those same people is that they might in a month use a tool more
than an average DIYer does in a year - IOW if the DIYer is going to
build their own house than the expense of buying pro tools makes sense
how ever you look at it but for someone who just does the odd DIY job
around it doesn't, the price certainly reflects the build quality but
not always the accuracy during the tools designed life span (which
will be measured in operating hours).

This would be true if "DIYers" as a class only wanted something that
will get the job done as cheaply as possible and don't care what the
quality of the results or the experience of use are like. While in some
cases this may be true, in many it is not.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
:Jerry: wrote:

Isn't that the point here, whilst all groups benefit from having
semi-pro and fully pro people from the trades, what is often
forgotten by those same people is that they might in a month use a
tool more than an average DIYer does in a year - IOW if the DIYer
is going to build their own house than the expense of buying pro
tools makes sense how ever you look at it but for someone who just
does the odd DIY job around it doesn't, the price certainly
reflects the build quality but not always the accuracy during the
tools designed life span (which will be measured in operating
hours).

This would be true if "DIYers" as a class only wanted something that
will get the job done as cheaply as possible and don't care what the
quality of the results or the experience of use are like. While in
some cases this may be true, in many it is not.


With respect, in this day and age of people knowing the cost of
everything but the value of nothing, I would suggest that your comment
is a*se about t*t - you have the words 'some' and 'many' transcribed!

On Jun 29, 2:29 am, John Rumm wrote:

I think the jigsaw test is an ideal way to convince anyone who doubts
the value of decent tools. The Makita in particular is just *so* much
better than most peoples experience of a jigsaw as to be really quite
surprising even if you are expecting it to be lots better.

I was even more suprised when I bought some *GOOD* blades for my
fairly modest jigsaw,
saved me spending £80 odd on a Makita etc ))

I expect most peoples experiences are of crap blades in a cheap
jigsaw...

cheers,
Pete.

On 2007-06-29 16:22:39 +0100, ":Jerry:" said:


"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
:Jerry: wrote:

Isn't that the point here, whilst all groups benefit from having
semi-pro and fully pro people from the trades, what is often
forgotten by those same people is that they might in a month use a
tool more than an average DIYer does in a year - IOW if the DIYer
is going to build their own house than the expense of buying pro
tools makes sense how ever you look at it but for someone who just
does the odd DIY job around it doesn't, the price certainly
reflects the build quality but not always the accuracy during the
tools designed life span (which will be measured in operating
hours).

This would be true if "DIYers" as a class only wanted something that
will get the job done as cheaply as possible and don't care what the
quality of the results or the experience of use are like. While in
some cases this may be true, in many it is not.


With respect, in this day and age of people knowing the cost of
everything but the value of nothing, I would suggest that your comment
is a*se about t*t - you have the words 'some' and 'many' transcribed!

I agree with John. DIY does not equate to cheap.

On 2007-06-29 16:28:05 +0100, Pete C said:

On Jun 29, 2:29 am, John Rumm wrote:

I think the jigsaw test is an ideal way to convince anyone who doubts
the value of decent tools. The Makita in particular is just *so* much
better than most peoples experience of a jigsaw as to be really quite
surprising even if you are expecting it to be lots better.

I was even more suprised when I bought some *GOOD* blades for my
fairly modest jigsaw,
saved me spending £80 odd on a Makita etc ))

I expect most peoples experiences are of crap blades in a cheap
jigsaw...

cheers,
Pete.

Good blades certainly do help, expecially in jig saws and circular saws.


However, in the case of a jig saw, the quality and engineering of the
blade holding mechanisms etc. are key to the ability of the saw to
maintain the stability of the cut.

There is a world of difference between the sub £50 jigsaw and the £100
products of Bosch, Makita et al.

:Jerry: wrote:

This would be true if "DIYers" as a class only wanted something that
will get the job done as cheaply as possible and don't care what the
quality of the results or the experience of use are like. While in
some cases this may be true, in many it is not.


With respect, in this day and age of people knowing the cost of
everything but the value of nothing, I would suggest that your comment
is a*se about t*t - you have the words 'some' and 'many' transcribed!

Perhaps you are right, I don't have any figures to confirm one way or
the other. The only safe thing to say is that "DIY" implies different
things to different people. For me it is about doing stuff to a standard
that would be hard to buy, about making furniture, and doing the
occasional bit of building work. If I save money doing it then that is
nice, but it is not the main motivation.


--
Cheers,

John.

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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:

Perhaps you are right, I don't have any figures to confirm one way or
the other. The only safe thing to say is that "DIY" implies different
things to different people. For me it is about doing stuff to a standard
that would be hard to buy, about making furniture, and doing the
occasional bit of building work. If I save money doing it then that is
nice, but it is not the main motivation.

I've started up self-employed myself this week, and have been round the
various builders merchants getting prices and seeing what they keep in
stock. A mate works in one of them, and told me to open an account with
him, and I'll be getting full discount immediately.
So I did.

Next day, another chap I know wanted a few slabs putting down, would I
go round and lay them for him. OK I say, let me know the sizes, and I'll
get them ordered for delivery next day if poss. He told me not to bother
ordering them, as he had an account at Travis Perkins and always gets
trade prices, OK, no problem, it's less for me to pay out.
2 days later, he's really pleased as he only paid £1.54+vat for each
slab - they are normally £1.74.
I hadnt the heart to tell him they are £1.49 inc vat at my mates place,
with a discount as well if I ordered them.
So DIY is not always the cheapest way definitely.
Alan.
--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-06-29 16:22:39 +0100, ":Jerry:"
said:


"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
:Jerry: wrote:

Isn't that the point here, whilst all groups benefit from having
semi-pro and fully pro people from the trades, what is often
forgotten by those same people is that they might in a month use
a
tool more than an average DIYer does in a year - IOW if the DIYer
is going to build their own house than the expense of buying pro
tools makes sense how ever you look at it but for someone who
just
does the odd DIY job around it doesn't, the price certainly
reflects the build quality but not always the accuracy during the
tools designed life span (which will be measured in operating
hours).

This would be true if "DIYers" as a class only wanted something
that
will get the job done as cheaply as possible and don't care what
the
quality of the results or the experience of use are like. While in
some cases this may be true, in many it is not.


With respect, in this day and age of people knowing the cost of
everything but the value of nothing, I would suggest that your
comment
is a*se about t*t - you have the words 'some' and 'many'
transcribed!

I agree with John. DIY does not equate to cheap.


But then niether of you are what most would call 'the average DIYer',
if the average DIYer only bought "the best" places like B&Q would not
offer lines that don't sell, but what do we find stocked - plenty of
cheap (some would say) crap but the more expencive (and some would
say) better tools are noticeable by their absence - go into a true
trade outlet and the opposite is the case...

My point is, people buy the best tool for what they will be *doing*,
not simply the tool with the best build quality. There is little point
in someone who is only ever going to put up the odd shelf in buying a
DaWalt drill, OTOH their is little point in someone who is
(re)building their own house buying a 19.99 ukp own brand special. The
problems occurs when people buy on price rather than on what the tool
will be asked to do, on the one hand they have expensive tools that
get under used and last until the cows come home (no real problem with
that, assuming that they haven't mortgaged the kids to buy the
tools...), but on the other hand we get people buying the cheapest and
then knackering the tool within a couple of months after having used
them constantly 12+ hrs a day - it's these people who then claim that
the tool is crap and should never be on sale!

As for the OP's problem, I've known 20k motor cars that have had a
failed bearing within the warranty period, faulty bearings can be
installed in anything - sounds to me that it missed the lubrication
prior to being sealed...

On 2007-06-29 18:16:17 +0100, ":Jerry:" said:

But then niether of you are what most would call 'the average DIYer',
if the average DIYer only bought "the best" places like B&Q would not
offer lines that don't sell, but what do we find stocked - plenty of
cheap (some would say) crap but the more expencive (and some would
say) better tools are noticeable by their absence - go into a true
trade outlet and the opposite is the case...

Who is the "average DIYer" though?



My point is, people buy the best tool for what they will be *doing*,
not simply the tool with the best build quality.

I think that most people who frequent places like B&Q for everything
just buy the cheapest thing because they don't know any better.

Actually, the B&Q warehouse in Reading has quite a range of
professional tools as well - Bosch blue, Makita, Metabo, DeWalt.


There is little point
in someone who is only ever going to put up the odd shelf in buying a
DaWalt drill, OTOH their is little point in someone who is
(re)building their own house buying a 19.99 ukp own brand special. The
problems occurs when people buy on price rather than on what the tool
will be asked to do,

Exactly.



on the one hand they have expensive tools that
get under used and last until the cows come home (no real problem with
that, assuming that they haven't mortgaged the kids to buy the
tools...), but on the other hand we get people buying the cheapest and
then knackering the tool within a couple of months after having used
them constantly 12+ hrs a day - it's these people who then claim that
the tool is crap and should never be on sale!

Also true.



As for the OP's problem, I've known 20k motor cars that have had a
failed bearing within the warranty period, faulty bearings can be
installed in anything - sounds to me that it missed the lubrication
prior to being sealed...

Engineered and manufactured to a price rather than a level of quality.

wrote in message
ups.com...
It's interesting to see over the months how you've come round to
buying pro tools. I think your road to Damascus was when you finally
tried an impact driver.

I know of no cheap budget Impact Drivers.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-06-29 18:16:17 +0100, ":Jerry:"
said:

snip

As for the OP's problem, I've known 20k motor cars that have had a
failed bearing within the warranty period, faulty bearings can be
installed in anything - sounds to me that it missed the lubrication
prior to being sealed...

Engineered and manufactured to a price rather than a level of
quality.


That would be why even Rolls-Royce's also breakdown then....

Faulty manufacturing can happen to anything - remember Apollo 13?...

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Matty F wrote:

You just don't realise the difference until you use the kit every day.
It's
not just the longevity, its the way they do the job.

I will never buy a Makita product.

Your loss I guess.

Yes. Loss of an eye.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-06-29 14:08:45 +0100, Matty F said:

On Jun 29, 11:27 pm, " wrote:
Have you got a link to the original report on that?

Here's a Usenet discussion with all the points that are sure to be
made:http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz....thread/e25b1af...

Looking at the original thread,

http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz....ad/thread/8d7c...

there seems to be just one person with an axe to grind, whilst the
other posters disagree with him.

Are you and "Pete" the same person?

No I don't know who Pete is. I think most of New Zealand would agree
that Makita badly stuffed up their handling of that case.

On a PR basis, possibly. However, this doesn't address the issue that
the user clearly didn't follow the manufacturer's instructions regarding
safety glasses.

Matt, should he wear body armour as well?

On 2007-06-29 19:17:33 +0100, ":Jerry:" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-06-29 18:16:17 +0100, ":Jerry:"
said:

snip

As for the OP's problem, I've known 20k motor cars that have had a
failed bearing within the warranty period, faulty bearings can be
installed in anything - sounds to me that it missed the lubrication
prior to being sealed...

Engineered and manufactured to a price rather than a level of
quality.


That would be why even Rolls-Royce's also breakdown then....

Faulty manufacturing can happen to anything - remember Apollo 13?...

yes, but duct tape fixed that as it always does.

On 2007-06-29 19:20:02 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Matty F wrote:

You just don't realise the difference until you use the kit every day. It's
not just the longevity, its the way they do the job.

I will never buy a Makita product.

Your loss I guess.

Yes. Loss of an eye.

As you know, unfortunate things happen when people don't read and
follow the instructions.

For some reason, they think that it is then the manufacturer's fault as
opposed the person who should have known better.

On 2007-06-29 19:24:32 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...
On 2007-06-29 14:08:45 +0100, Matty F said:

On Jun 29, 11:27 pm, " wrote:
Have you got a link to the original report on that?

Here's a Usenet discussion with all the points that are sure to be
made:http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz....thread/e25b1af...

Looking at the original thread,

http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz....ad/thread/8d7c...

there seems to be just one person with an axe to grind, whilst the
other posters disagree with him.

Are you and "Pete" the same person?

No I don't know who Pete is. I think most of New Zealand would agree
that Makita badly stuffed up their handling of that case.

On a PR basis, possibly. However, this doesn't address the issue that
the user clearly didn't follow the manufacturer's instructions
regarding safety glasses.

Matt, should he wear body armour as well?

For this one, no.

For the Techtronics Ryobi radial arm saw, possibly.