Hi

I have to repair a lighting cable that someone has drilled through. It's to
the two way switch in the hall and the 4 core cable that has been damaged.
The damage is about 6" from the ceiling.

The cable is covered by white PVC channel.

I can see three options here;

1] Take up floorboard above & use junction box, replace entire cable. This
is the most difficult option because the bedroom above will have to be all
but emptied, a section of chipboard cut out & replaced.

2] Cut out small damaged section of cable, use cable crimps to re join, bury
in new plaster. There is enough slack to do this. Simplest option,
cheapest for customer.

3] Chase out & expose entire cable, remove cable between damage & switch.
Crimp new piece of cable to existing, push crimped section into ceiling
void, make good. Sort of mid way choice for customer.

Option 1 seems the best to me but it's going to create major disruption.
Option 2 is easier, but is it safe & legal?

What's the point in PVC channel anyway? It offers little protection. Is it
just to make thing easier for the plasterers?



--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

In article , The Medway
Handyman wrote:
Hi

I have to repair a lighting cable that someone has drilled through.
It's to the two way switch in the hall and the 4 core cable that has
been damaged. The damage is about 6" from the ceiling.

The cable is covered by white PVC channel.

I can see three options here;

1] Take up floorboard above & use junction box, replace entire cable.
This is the most difficult option because the bedroom above will have
to be all but emptied, a section of chipboard cut out & replaced.

2] Cut out small damaged section of cable, use cable crimps to re join,
bury in new plaster. There is enough slack to do this. Simplest
option, cheapest for customer.

As well as crimping you need to use heatshrink to restore the second
insulation layer of TW&E.

3] Chase out & expose entire cable, remove cable between damage &
switch. Crimp new piece of cable to existing, push crimped section into
ceiling void, make good. Sort of mid way choice for customer.

Option 1 seems the best to me but it's going to create major disruption.
Option 2 is easier, but is it safe & legal?

What's the point in PVC channel anyway? It offers little protection.
Is it just to make thing easier for the plasterers?

Indeed. Never use the stuff.

--
*People want trepanners like they want a hole in the head*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article , The Medway
Handyman wrote:
Hi

I have to repair a lighting cable that someone has drilled through.
It's to the two way switch in the hall and the 4 core cable that has
been damaged. The damage is about 6" from the ceiling.

The cable is covered by white PVC channel.

I can see three options here;

1] Take up floorboard above & use junction box, replace entire cable.
This is the most difficult option because the bedroom above will have
to be all but emptied, a section of chipboard cut out & replaced.

2] Cut out small damaged section of cable, use cable crimps to re join,
bury in new plaster. There is enough slack to do this. Simplest
option, cheapest for customer.

As well as crimping you need to use heatshrink to restore the second
insulation layer of TW&E.

3] Chase out & expose entire cable, remove cable between damage &
switch. Crimp new piece of cable to existing, push crimped section into
ceiling void, make good. Sort of mid way choice for customer.

Option 1 seems the best to me but it's going to create major disruption.
Option 2 is easier, but is it safe & legal?

What's the point in PVC channel anyway? It offers little protection.
Is it just to make thing easier for the plasterers?

Indeed. Never use the stuff.

--
*People want trepanners like they want a hole in the head*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

I am going to put a damper on things here. I fully support the 'handyman
principle', but I think you should draw a line at what you do for reward. I
hope for your sake when you carry out these repairs your fully test them and
issue the appropriate test certification. Before anyones flames me, be aware
that Dave is a trader and not a diy'er, and feeds of the group for advice to
carry out his business, which I think has a proper place.

Please do not take this personally but I feel that you stick to what you are
good at and capable of.

Steve Dawson
www.foxelectrical.co.uk

On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 22:02:23 GMT, "Stephen Dawson"
wrote:
{snip]

What's the point in PVC channel anyway? It offers little protection.
Is it just to make thing easier for the plasterers?

Indeed. Never use the stuff.

--
*People want trepanners like they want a hole in the head*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

I am going to put a damper on things here. I fully support the 'handyman
principle', but I think you should draw a line at what you do for reward. I
hope for your sake when you carry out these repairs your fully test them and
issue the appropriate test certification.

I've never known an niceic Sparks do anything of the kind.

He snatches the fivers (£200/day) and stuffs them in his back pocket
as he says "you don't want to pay VAT do you ?"

And *yes* I am talking from experience. :-(

Before anyones flames me, be aware
that Dave is a trader and not a diy'er,

???

He's not he's a Broadcast sound engineer !

and feeds of the group for advice to carry out his business, which I think has a proper place.

That has no meaning in the English language.

Please do not take this personally but I feel that you stick to what you are
good at and capable of.


This is uk.diy AIUI bona-fide contributions are welcome from those
that can help.

I have a degree in electrical engineering (1969), that's not to say
that I'm up to date with the wiring regs, but I saw nothing in Dave's
helpful post the could be criticised.

AAMOF I don't see the point in PVC channel myself.

DG

In article ,
Stephen Dawson wrote:
I am going to put a damper on things here. I fully support the 'handyman
principle', but I think you should draw a line at what you do for
reward. I hope for your sake when you carry out these repairs your
fully test them and issue the appropriate test certification.

What test certification is appropriate in this circumstance?

--
*If Barbie is so popular, why do you have to buy her friends? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Stephen Dawson wrote:

I am going to put a damper on things here. I fully support the
'handyman principle', but I think you should draw a line at what you
do for reward. I hope for your sake when you carry out these repairs
your fully test them and issue the appropriate test certification.

AFAIK repairs to an existing circuit are outside of part P and don't need
certification. If I do any electrical work I always double check what I am
doing and if I'm not sure I ether ask, look it up or refuse the job.

Before anyones flames me, be aware that Dave is a trader and not a
diy'er, and feeds of the group for advice to carry out his business,
which I think has a proper place.

I make no secret of the fact that I am a 'trader' (hence my signature), but
I was a member of this group before that. Many other members are also
'traders'. I do ask questions of those wiser & more experienced than I am
granted. I also freely offer my specialist knowledge of pressure washers,
carpet cleaning & vacuum cleaners.

I don't 'feed of (sic) the group', I am a regular contributor - which is
more than I can say for you. This is a double edged sword of course. Being
a 'trader' means that I do more DIY in a month than some do in a year. For
example I've built 5 decks this year and I freely share my experience with
the diy'er's here, both on & off group.

Please do not take this personally but I feel that you stick to what
you are good at and capable of.

I do stick to what I'm good at. The client in question had called several
electricians to get the problem sorted and none had bothered to get back to
her.

Steve Dawson
www.foxelectrical.co.uk

Fox Electrical????? I assume that you are also a 'trader'? What are you
doing on this group when you don't contribute your knowledge & experience?


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

In article ,
Derek ^ wrote:
Before anyones flames me, be aware
that Dave is a trader and not a diy'er,

???

He's not he's a Broadcast sound engineer !

Other Dave. ;-)

--
*You sound reasonable......time to up my medication

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

The message
from "Stephen Dawson" contains these words:

I am going to put a damper on things here. I fully support the 'handyman
principle', but I think you should draw a line at what you do for reward. I
hope for your sake when you carry out these repairs your fully test
them and
issue the appropriate test certification. Before anyones flames me, be
aware
that Dave is a trader and not a diy'er, and feeds of the group for
advice to
carry out his business, which I think has a proper place.

You've not been here long, have you?

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

The Medway Handyman wrote:

2] Cut out small damaged section of cable, use cable crimps to re join, bury
in new plaster. There is enough slack to do this. Simplest option,
cheapest for customer.

So long as you use heatshrink to insulate each wire, and a second layer
to insulate the whole join then you will be fine. It helps if you cut
each wire a different length such that you don't end up with a bunch of
crimps beside each other which will make getting the overall heatshrink
on a tad trickey!

To test your work you could disconnect the cable at both switches and
then short all the conductors together at one. Now use a low ohms range
to measure resistance between them at the other end. That should prove
you have a low resistance join. You can compare your readings with the
resitance / metre tables in the OSG (assuming you know the approximate
length of cable).

What's the point in PVC channel anyway? It offers little protection. Is it
just to make thing easier for the plasterers?

Basically yes - protects the cable from trowel damage, and holds it flat
to the wall. It is sod all use later should you want to extract and
replace a cable.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

be aware
that Dave is a trader and not a diy'er, and feeds of the group for advice to
carry out his business, which I think has a proper place.

Steve Dawson
www.foxelectrical.co.uk

And what are you then, going by your sig ?. Dave has been on this group
for a long time and has always given good advice. I have never, ever seen
him abuse that. How long have you been posting here ?

Dave

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

What test certification is appropriate in this circumstance?

I thought even part-P allowed for replacement of damaged cable in part
of an existing circuit.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...

What's the point in PVC channel anyway? It offers little protection. Is
it just to make thing easier for the plasterers?

Basically yes - protects the cable from trowel damage, and holds it flat
to the wall. It is sod all use later should you want to extract and
replace a cable.

I don't understand why you say it is no use later if extraction and
replacement of the cable is required. I would have thought that was the
principal advantage, please advise.

Roger R

In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
What test certification is appropriate in this circumstance?

I thought even part-P allowed for replacement of damaged cable in part
of an existing circuit.

My thoughts too. But that doesn't stop 'pros' trying to con you into
believing otherwise.

--
*How many roads must a man travel down before he admits he is lost?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
"Roger R" writes:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...

What's the point in PVC channel anyway? It offers little protection. Is
it just to make thing easier for the plasterers?

Basically yes - protects the cable from trowel damage, and holds it flat
to the wall. It is sod all use later should you want to extract and
replace a cable.

I don't understand why you say it is no use later if extraction and
replacement of the cable is required. I would have thought that was the
principal advantage, please advise.

I have rewired a house, and made extensive use of the capping
whereby I used the old wires to pull the new wires through.
There was only one piece in the whole house I couldn't pull out.

Oval trunking is easier, but that's not normally used for first
fix in a new building as it's thicker.

--
Andrew Gabriel

In article ,
Roger R wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...

What's the point in PVC channel anyway? It offers little protection.
Is it just to make thing easier for the plasterers?

Basically yes - protects the cable from trowel damage, and holds it
flat to the wall. It is sod all use later should you want to extract
and replace a cable.

I don't understand why you say it is no use later if extraction and
replacement of the cable is required. I would have thought that was
the principal advantage, please advise.

It will be ok in short straight runs, and if carefully lined up at the
entrance to a box. But life is rarely that simple. ;-)

Besides, the chances of a re-wire in some 50 years time requiring the same
cable runs are remote.

--
*Reality? Is that where the pizza delivery guy comes from?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

John Rumm wrote:
The Medway Handyman wrote:

2] Cut out small damaged section of cable, use cable crimps to re
join, bury in new plaster. There is enough slack to do this. Simplest
option, cheapest for customer.

So long as you use heatshrink to insulate each wire, and a second
layer to insulate the whole join then you will be fine. It helps if
you cut each wire a different length such that you don't end up with
a bunch of crimps beside each other which will make getting the
overall heatshrink on a tad trickey!

Thanks for your good advice as usual John, but I'm now a little confused!

How do you go about fitting heatshrink to each wire? Each wire still has
its own insulation apart from the bit inside the crimp. Or do you mean
heatshrink just over the crimp? Or would you pull the heatshrink back, make
the crimp & then allow it to spring back?

I do see the point about staggering the crimps - good tip.

Perhaps I'm having a blond moment :-)


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257




To test your work you could disconnect the cable at both switches and
then short all the conductors together at one. Now use a low ohms
range to measure resistance between them at the other end. That
should prove you have a low resistance join. You can compare your
readings with the resitance / metre tables in the OSG (assuming you
know the approximate length of cable).

What's the point in PVC channel anyway? It offers little
protection. Is it just to make thing easier for the plasterers?

Basically yes - protects the cable from trowel damage, and holds it
flat to the wall. It is sod all use later should you want to extract
and replace a cable.


/================================================== ===============\
Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
-----------------------------------------------------------------|
John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 2006-11-18 10:59:43 +0000, "The Medway Handyman"
said:

John Rumm wrote:
The Medway Handyman wrote:

2] Cut out small damaged section of cable, use cable crimps to re
join, bury in new plaster. There is enough slack to do this. Simplest
option, cheapest for customer.

So long as you use heatshrink to insulate each wire, and a second
layer to insulate the whole join then you will be fine. It helps if
you cut each wire a different length such that you don't end up with
a bunch of crimps beside each other which will make getting the
overall heatshrink on a tad trickey!

Thanks for your good advice as usual John, but I'm now a little confused!

How do you go about fitting heatshrink to each wire? Each wire still
has its own insulation apart from the bit inside the crimp. Or do you
mean heatshrink just over the crimp? Or would you pull the heatshrink
back, make the crimp & then allow it to spring back?

I do see the point about staggering the crimps - good tip.

Perhaps I'm having a blond moment :-)

Well Gloria...... ;-)

You can get heatshrink sleeve with hot melt glue inside. RS sell it
among others. Unshrunk size bigger than outer cable insulation - one
size is suitable for 1mm^2 to 2.5mm^2 so no need to buy different ones.
4mm^2 and above needs a bigger size probably.

Slide a length longer than the total length of the joint - i.e.
lengths of the (now) single insulated sections plus the crimps and a
bit more to overlap onto the cable outer insulation at each end - over
one cable before you start. Make crimps as described. Slide sleeve
over the whole lot and apply heat from heat gun.

Ordinary heat shrink can also be used, but the stuff with glue makes a
really good joint that is effectively sealed as well.

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2006-11-18 10:59:43 +0000, "The Medway Handyman"
said:

John Rumm wrote:
The Medway Handyman wrote:

2] Cut out small damaged section of cable, use cable crimps to re
join, bury in new plaster. There is enough slack to do this.
Simplest option, cheapest for customer.

So long as you use heatshrink to insulate each wire, and a second
layer to insulate the whole join then you will be fine. It helps if
you cut each wire a different length such that you don't end up with
a bunch of crimps beside each other which will make getting the
overall heatshrink on a tad trickey!

Thanks for your good advice as usual John, but I'm now a little
confused! How do you go about fitting heatshrink to each wire? Each wire
still
has its own insulation apart from the bit inside the crimp. Or do
you mean heatshrink just over the crimp? Or would you pull the
heatshrink back, make the crimp & then allow it to spring back?

I do see the point about staggering the crimps - good tip.

Perhaps I'm having a blond moment :-)

Well Gloria...... ;-)

Only on Friday nights............

You can get heatshrink sleeve with hot melt glue inside. RS sell it
among others. Unshrunk size bigger than outer cable insulation - one
size is suitable for 1mm^2 to 2.5mm^2 so no need to buy different
ones. 4mm^2 and above needs a bigger size probably.

Yup, I'm with you.

Slide a length longer than the total length of the joint - i.e.
lengths of the (now) single insulated sections plus the crimps and a
bit more to overlap onto the cable outer insulation at each end - over
one cable before you start. Make crimps as described. Slide sleeve
over the whole lot and apply heat from heat gun.

Yup, got that, but I thought John was suggesting each individual wire should
be heat shrinked and then the whole lot heat shrinked?

Where did I put that peroxide...........



--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

Hi Dave,

First of all let me say that I value your contribution to this group.

There are many traders posting useful advice here but I think you are
unique in that you frequently make posts requesting information on how to
best do jobs that you are going to perform for financial gain. That being the
case I can see how some could view those posts being of a commercial
nature and therefore OT.

My own thoughts are that although you are being paid for these jobs, you
are in effect a paid DIYer and so the advice you seek is useful and relevant
to others and therefore OK. If however this group was to be flooded by
numerous Brand X handymen asking how best to perform their paid work, I
think my opinion would change.

I don't think that a trader's name in a sig makes Steve Dawson's or any
others' posts commercial.

Please keep contributing.
--
fred
Plusnet - I hope you like vanilla

fred wrote:
Hi Dave,

First of all let me say that I value your contribution to this group.

Thank you.

There are many traders posting useful advice here but I think you are
unique in that you frequently make posts requesting information on
how to best do jobs that you are going to perform for financial gain.
That being the case I can see how some could view those posts being
of a commercial
nature and therefore OT.

As I said earlier, its a double edged sword. What I learn from doing jobs
for commercial gain I happily share with the group. For example I've built
5 decks this year, more than anyone who is not a trader would probably build
in a lifetime of DIY. I freely share what I have learnt with anyone here.

My own thoughts are that although you are being paid for these jobs,
you
are in effect a paid DIYer and so the advice you seek is useful and
relevant to others and therefore OK.

I hope I don't abuse the facility. I frequently try to answer questions
where I have specialist knowledge or experience. I wrote the pressure
washers FAQ to share my knowledge and one day I will finish the carpet
cleaning FAQ :-(

I think I contribute as much as I ask at any rate. As you say, my questions
and the answers may help others on the group and contribute to the archives.

If however this group was to be
flooded by numerous Brand X handymen asking how best to perform their
paid work, I think my opinion would change.

I agree. I'm not looking for something for nothing though. It wouldn't be
right to only ask questions without giving something back.

Please keep contributing.

I will :-)


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

The Medway Handyman wrote:

AFAIK repairs to an existing circuit are outside of part P and don't need
certification.

Part P makes the fixed electrical installation of a dwelling a
controlled service under the building regulations. Therefore any work
done to such an installation is within its scope, whether notifiable or
not. IOW Part P always applies.

All the Part P legislation now says is:

"P1 Reasonable provision shall be made in the design, installation,
inspection and testing of electrical installations in order to protect
persons from fire or injury."

However (1) note that there's no explicit reference to BS 7671 in the
legislation. Note also that the previous Part P2 requirement, which
required "information" (i.e. documentation) to be provided was removed
in the amendment of April this year. Thus there would seem to be no
explicit legal requirement to provide certification.

However (2) Para 1.8 of Approved Document 2 states that compliance with
Part P can be demonstrated by the issue of an appropriate electrical
installation certificate under BS 7671. Thus it would be difficult to
challenge the assumption that certification is required for new
installations, rewires and what BS 7671 calls "additions and alterations."

However (3) what we're talking about here possibly isn't an
"alteration," it's a "repair." Or does inserting a crimped joint in a
cable (not accessible for inspection) where previously there was none
constitute an alteration? - I don't know the answer to that. If it is
an alteration a minor works certificate (MWC) would be required, but if
only a repair BS 7671 doesn't require a certificate (although para 1.13
of the approved document describes it as advisable).

So, to come to Steve Dawson's defence (and he has been posting here for
a long time, BTW) I think he has a valid point. Not that Dave shouldn't
be doing the work, but that he should (if competent) be testing and
certifying it. OK, this is a borderline example, but there's no doubt
that many of the jobs listed on
http://www.medwayhandyman.co.uk/electrics.htm are definitely additions
or alterations which do require testing and MWCs.

--
Andy

Andy Wade wrote:
OK, this is a borderline example, but
there's no doubt that many of the jobs listed on
http://www.medwayhandyman.co.uk/electrics.htm are definitely additions
or alterations which do require testing and MWCs.

Thanks for the comments & info.

Which ones would you suggest require testing? I asked my local Trading
Standards to perfom a volutary investigation of the website to ensure no
unfair or incorrect claims were made, but of course they aren't
electricians.

My intention is to stay inside the regs, so any advice would be welcome.


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

John Rumm wrote:

To test your work you could disconnect the cable at both switches and
then short all the conductors together at one. Now use a low ohms range
to measure resistance between them at the other end. That should prove
you have a low resistance join. You can compare your readings with the
resitance / metre tables in the OSG (assuming you know the approximate
length of cable).

He should also do the full set of tests required for an MWC, i.e.:

(i) continuity of the CPC
(ii) insulation resistances
(iii) earth fault loop impedance (Zs)
(iv) polarity
(v) RCD operation, if applicable.

--
Andy

In article ,
The Medway Handyman wrote:
So long as you use heatshrink to insulate each wire, and a second
layer to insulate the whole join then you will be fine. It helps if
you cut each wire a different length such that you don't end up with
a bunch of crimps beside each other which will make getting the
overall heatshrink on a tad trickey!

Thanks for your good advice as usual John, but I'm now a little confused!

How do you go about fitting heatshrink to each wire? Each wire still
has its own insulation apart from the bit inside the crimp. Or do you
mean heatshrink just over the crimp? Or would you pull the heatshrink
back, make the crimp & then allow it to spring back?

You use heatshrink over the entire lot - to replace the outer sheath,
where you've made the joints. The stuff with internal glue is the best as
it's thicker - otherwise use two layers of ordinary stuff if you can.

I do see the point about staggering the crimps - good tip.

Perhaps I'm having a blond moment :-)

Easy enough first time you do anything.

--
*The only difference between a rut and a grave is the depth.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

The Medway Handyman wrote:

Which ones would you suggest require testing?

- Replace light switches . . . . . . . = repair/maintenance
- Fit dimmer switches . . . . . . . . = alteration
- Replace ceiling roses . . . . . . . = repair/maintenance
- Fit Ceiling Fans . . . . . . . . . . = addition
- Replace damaged sockets . . . . . . = repair/maintenance
- Convert single sockets to two way . = alteration
- Convert double sockets to three way = alteration
- Convert single sockets to four way . = alteration
- Any 'like for like' replacement . . = repair/maintenance

The additions and alts certainly do; for the repairs and maintenance
items it's a moot point, but do read 1.13 in the Approved Doc.

- Fit outside lights = addition, and notifiable in some circumstances.

(provided that cable terminates in a 13amp plug)

It's another moot point whether that gets you off the hook. You are
still adding fixed electrical equipment and presumably fixed wiring
thereto, forming part of a fixed electrical installation and therefore
within the scope...

I asked my local Trading Standards [...] but of course they aren't
electricians.

Quite. Sadly, it's probably your PL insurance company that will have
the final word. If you are going to certify they will probably insist
that you get the C&G 2381 & 2391 tickets (not that those are
particularly difficult if you know your stuff). That would then give
you the advantage of being able to do notifiable work for just the cost
of a building notice and minimal fuss (see 1.22 in the Approved Doc.)

--
Andy

Andy Wade wrote:
The Medway Handyman wrote:

Which ones would you suggest require testing?

- Replace light switches . . . . . . . = repair/maintenance
- Fit dimmer switches . . . . . . . . = alteration

Hmmm. In one respect it's changing one switch for another switch with no
alteration to the wiring, albeit a different type of switch. How far does
this go? For example replacing a defunct B&Q own brand switch with an MK
brand?

- Replace ceiling roses . . . . . . . = repair/maintenance
- Fit Ceiling Fans . . . . . . . . . . = addition

Again, one type of light fitting for another (since most fans have lights as
well)? Or not?

- Replace damaged sockets . . . . . . = repair/maintenance
- Convert single sockets to two way . = alteration
- Convert double sockets to three way = alteration
- Convert single sockets to four way . = alteration

I do this using the kit type socket converters like this
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...61583&id=60887
since these are widely available to joe public is that OK?

- Any 'like for like' replacement . . = repair/maintenance

The additions and alts certainly do; for the repairs and maintenance
items it's a moot point, but do read 1.13 in the Approved Doc.

I'll make a point of that - thanks.

SNIP
Quite. Sadly, it's probably your PL insurance company that will have
the final word. If you are going to certify they will probably insist
that you get the C&G 2381 & 2391 tickets (not that those are
particularly difficult if you know your stuff). That would then give
you the advantage of being able to do notifiable work for just the
cost of a building notice and minimal fuss (see 1.22 in the Approved
Doc.)

I'll look into that - thanks again.


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

"Guy King" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Stephen Dawson" contains these words:

I am going to put a damper on things here. I fully support the 'handyman
principle', but I think you should draw a line at what you do for reward.
I
hope for your sake when you carry out these repairs your fully test
them and
issue the appropriate test certification. Before anyones flames me, be
aware
that Dave is a trader and not a diy'er, and feeds of the group for
advice to
carry out his business, which I think has a proper place.

You've not been here long, have you?

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

Only about 6 or 7 years from memory, so no I have not been here long in
relation to the age of the planet.

Steve Dawson
www.foxelectrical.co.uk

"gort" wrote in message
news

be aware
that Dave is a trader and not a diy'er, and feeds of the group for advice
to
carry out his business, which I think has a proper place.

Steve Dawson
www.foxelectrical.co.uk

And what are you then, going by your sig ?. Dave has been on this group
for a long time and has always given good advice. I have never, ever seen
him abuse that. How long have you been posting here ?

Dave

For everbodys info,

My credentials

Apprentice electrical fitter for Southern Electric Plc 1988 - 1992
High Voltage Distribution Fitter for Southern Electric, carrying out
maintenance and construction on all voltages ad systems between 12V dc and
132KV 1992 - 2001
Started own business in 1998 working part time on days off. Changed name in
1998 to Fox Electrical, Left Southern Electric in 2001, to work full time on
my business. Became ECA registered contractor in 2002, NICEIC registered in
2006.

I have a CG232pt 2, CG2377, CG2380, CG2391, have finished the CG2400, but
not had time to do the design assignemnt yet.

Run a small electrical business, doing a wide variety of jobs, and diagree
with the application of Part P. but agree agree with the theory, but it is
not working.

My original point regarding Dave's post was that I have and do such repairs,
using crimps and heatshrink, but some time the crimp does not hold or I
missed for some reason. Any way with out testing it correctly how are you to
know whether or not the repair is safe??

The point was to get Dave to think about the consequences of a failed
repair, and what he would do to defend himself, if someone was injured. No
scarey bits intend, just to open your eyes to what may occur.

You nay create a high resistance joint which could potentially start a fire,
or maybe the earth ( or 'circuit protective conductor' to give it it's
proper name maybe open circuit. Where would the potential fault go in a
class 1 appliance?? Possible thru the case and the person touching.

A way of demonstrating that you have carried this out correctly is to issue
test certs, in this case we would look to issue a Minor Works Certificate,
because the work that has been carried out has interfered with the
characteristics of the circuit.

I have no gripe with Dave, he is good and proactive group member, but needs
as a fledging business to be aware of potential pitfalls. It would be the
same as be putting in a gas heating system, but I have no idea how to
commision it or what is the correct burning characteristics.

Oh, one more thing, everybody on this group knows I am awful at speeling and
grammar, which is why I build things, not wite things.

Now, lets all play nicely again :-) and not jump down people's throats when
they offer advice, unless it is bad or dangerous.

Regards to Everyone, even Dr Drivel

Steve Dawson
www.foxelectrical.co.uk

The message
from "Stephen Dawson" contains these words:

Only about 6 or 7 years from memory, so no I have not been here long in
relation to the age of the planet.

Then you should know better than to make daft comments about
contributors having particular professions and whether they should ask
for help.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

In message , The Medway
Handyman writes

I think I contribute as much as I ask at any rate. As you say, my questions
and the answers may help others on the group and contribute to the archives.

If however this group was to be
flooded by numerous Brand X handymen asking how best to perform their
paid work, I think my opinion would change.

I agree. I'm not looking for something for nothing though. It wouldn't be
right to only ask questions without giving something back.


I think that there is a big difference between regular contributors who
as questions for whatever reason, and those who come ask a question and
bugger off never to be seen again

This NG could exist without the latter, but not without the former

--
geoff

Roger R wrote:

Basically yes - protects the cable from trowel damage, and holds it flat
to the wall. It is sod all use later should you want to extract and
replace a cable.


I don't understand why you say it is no use later if extraction and
replacement of the cable is required. I would have thought that was the
principal advantage, please advise.

Perhaps "sod all" was a little strong... of "limited use" may be fairer.
Sometimes you can pull a new wire through, but often you find bits at
the end that get blocked off with plaster, or it is on a brick or block
wall where you end up snagging the new cable on mortar joints.

--
Cheers,

John.

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The Medway Handyman wrote:

How do you go about fitting heatshrink to each wire? Each wire still has
its own insulation apart from the bit inside the crimp. Or do you mean
heatshrink just over the crimp? Or would you pull the heatshrink back, make
the crimp & then allow it to spring back?

I do see the point about staggering the crimps - good tip.

Perhaps I'm having a blond moment :-)

Well it does depend on whether your crimps are insulated ones or not ;-)

With uninsulated ones, then you must use heatshring on each wire - it
covers the whole crimp and a bit of wire either side.

With insulated crimps then you can do without the extra heatshrink
inside so long as the insulated crimp has a skirt section to ensure
there is no possibility of copper being visible at the base of the
crimp. Having said that there is nothing to stop you using heatshrink on
the individual wires even if you do have insulated crimps.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Andy Wade wrote:

John Rumm wrote:

To test your work you could disconnect the cable at both switches and
then short all the conductors together at one. Now use a low ohms
range to measure resistance between them at the other end. That should
prove you have a low resistance join. You can compare your readings
with the resitance / metre tables in the OSG (assuming you know the
approximate length of cable).


He should also do the full set of tests required for an MWC, i.e.:

(i) continuity of the CPC
(ii) insulation resistances
(iii) earth fault loop impedance (Zs)
(iv) polarity
(v) RCD operation, if applicable.

There is an argument that some of these should be done before[1] making
the repair as well, otherwise there is the danger that you uncover
pre-existing faults after you have made alterations and the client is
going to think it is your fault!

[1] obviosuly which tests you can carry out (other than iv and v) will
depend ont he nature of the cable damage.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
Stephen Dawson wrote:
My original point regarding Dave's post was that I have and do such
repairs, using crimps and heatshrink, but some time the crimp does not
hold or I missed for some reason.

Just as a follow up, the insulated type may be approved, but have you ever
removed the insulation and examined one after crimping? They look
terrible. I far prefer non insulated types where the crimper has shaped
jaws which turn one side of the crimp sort of in on itself. They may both
be functional, but one 'looks' so much better.

--
*The statement above is false

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

The Medway Handyman wrote:

Hmmm. In one respect it's changing one switch for another switch with no
alteration to the wiring, albeit a different type of switch.

The installation consists of electrical equipment and wiring. You're
changing the type of equipment fitted so that's an alteration. A
trivial one, certainly, but still an alteration.

How far does this go? For example replacing a defunct B&Q own brand
switch with an MK brand?

If the same no. of gangs and ways then that's a like-for-like replacement.

Again, one type of light fitting for another (since most fans have lights as
well)? Or not?

Not (IMHO).

I do this using the kit type socket converters like this
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...61583&id=60887
since these are widely available to joe public is that OK?

Well it's OK, provided the 13 A overall rating is sufficient for the
reasonably anticipated loading, but it's still an alteration to the
circuit. The "widely available to joe public" bit is quite irrelevant,
consumer units and any other items of electrical equipment you'd need in
a house are equally widely available.

--
Andy

John Rumm wrote:
The Medway Handyman wrote:

How do you go about fitting heatshrink to each wire? Each wire
still has its own insulation apart from the bit inside the crimp. Or do
you mean heatshrink just over the crimp? Or would you pull
the heatshrink back, make the crimp & then allow it to spring back?

I do see the point about staggering the crimps - good tip.

Perhaps I'm having a blond moment :-)

Well it does depend on whether your crimps are insulated ones or not
;-)

It was a blond moment John, or possibly a grey one. I didn't know they made
uninsulated crimps! I've only ever seen insulated ones.

Doh!


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

On Sat, 18 Nov 2006 19:48:43 GMT, "Stephen Dawson"
wrote:


My original point regarding Dave's post was that I have and do such repairs,
using crimps and heatshrink, but some time the crimp does not hold or I
missed for some reason.

Invariably the cause of this is the use of incorrect crimps and/or
tooling. The standard Partpee electrician carries a cheap (rusty)
non pressure regulated pressed metal squeeze crimp pliers tool and a
box red blue and yellow (RBY) crimps of unknown (other than they were
the cheapest) provenance.

A crimp joint done with the correct ratchet tool and using RBY crimps
meant for solid core cable (most are not) will always hold.

Any way with out testing it correctly how are you to
know whether or not the repair is safe??

The correct test for a crimp joint is to exert the correct pull out
force on it and check it holds. No electrical test can test a crimp
joint for any fault other than ones so gross they should be visible
to the naked eye.

The point was to get Dave to think about the consequences of a failed
repair, and what he would do to defend himself, if someone was injured. No
scarey bits intend, just to open your eyes to what may occur.

If all you could show was you had used the wrong tool, the wrong
component and the wrong test I'm not sure this would be much of a
defence, certificates or not.

A way of demonstrating that you have carried this out correctly is to issue
test certs,

No it isn't, that simply proves you have issued a certificate. If it
is based upon an inappropriate test for the work done it is
meaningless. I can consistently crimp you many joints with the toy
pliers so beloved of electricians which would pass all your tests and
fail within weeks. The way to do the work correctly is to use the
right tools and components in the first place. To do this you need
to know what the right tool and components are - something most
electricians (in this case) don't.

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

In article ,
The Medway Handyman wrote:

It was a blond moment John, or possibly a grey one. I didn't
know they made uninsulated crimps! I've only ever seen
insulated ones.

I have always been doubtful about insulated crimps
for solid wire. ISTM that a crimp for solid wire
should be thick-walled, uninsulated, with visible
corrugated lines inside. With the correct tool
those corrugated lines should pierce the solid
wire and form a gas-tight joint.

--
Tony Williams.

In article ,
Peter Parry wrote:
The way to do the work correctly is to use the
right tools and components in the first place. To do this you need
to know what the right tool and components are - something most
electricians (in this case) don't.

This is the tool I use:-
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/DVDHCR15.html

And these crimps:-
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Ind...ols/index.html

Are you saying neither is really up to the job? If so, could you give some
recommendations?

--
*Where do forest rangers go to "get away from it all?"

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

The Medway Handyman wrote:

Well it does depend on whether your crimps are insulated ones or not
;-)


It was a blond moment John, or possibly a grey one. I didn't know they made
uninsulated crimps! I've only ever seen insulated ones.

My fault for not explaining all the assumptions in the first place...

(I only buy the insulated ones myself as well)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/