WHen I wwas talking about truss bracing, there were a few suggestions that
even the type of nail to use was part of the spec.

So, when it comes to nailing in wooden herringbones (or steel ones for that
matter), or nailing truss clips to the wall plates, are there special nails
to use, or would 50mm round wire nails suffice?

Thanks

Chris


======
Waiting for a topic to come up that I know all about, so I can do some
answering for a change!

Given how cheap good quality screws are
(http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...31374&ts=64000) I'd
be tempted to use them everywhere in structural timber.

wrote in message
ups.com...
Given how cheap good quality screws are
(http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...31374&ts=64000) I'd
be tempted to use them everywhere in structural timber.

OKay, that makes sense... probably easier to wield a recharageble scredriver
than a hammer... I'll also get away with working later in the evening ;-)

OKay, so i'll want 40 or 45mm long, but what about the thickness? i suspect
the sizes 3, 3.5, 4, 4.5 are mm thickness of the core of the scre (not the
thread)? i.e. a different numbering system to No.4, No.6, No. 8 and so on.
Close enough to be confusing.

If thats the case case 4 x 40mm would seem about right?

Cheers,
Chris

Given how cheap good quality screws are
(http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...31374&ts=64000) I'd
be tempted to use them everywhere in structural timber.

Yes, I almost never use nails.

Christian.

OKay, so i'll want 40 or 45mm long, but what about the thickness? i
suspect the sizes 3, 3.5, 4, 4.5 are mm thickness of the core of the scre
(not the thread)? i.e. a different numbering system to No.4, No.6, No. 8
and so on. Close enough to be confusing.

Metric screws are generally measured on their clearance drill size, not the
pilot.

I think I would use 5x50mm for this application. I would predrill the
struts, too. I might pilot drill the joists, depending on how hard it was to
get the first couple in. Having multiple drills available helps!

Even though quicker, I wouldn't use nails. Hammering sideways into the joist
is likely to disturb and crack the ceiling.

Christian.

Chris Styles wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
Given how cheap good quality screws are
(http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...31374&ts=64000) I'd
be tempted to use them everywhere in structural timber.

OKay, that makes sense... probably easier to wield a recharageble scredriver
than a hammer... I'll also get away with working later in the evening ;-)

It also results in less stress on the existing structure, Popped clouts
in plasterboard are the bane of my existence.

OKay, so i'll want 40 or 45mm long, but what about the thickness? i suspect
the sizes 3, 3.5, 4, 4.5 are mm thickness of the core of the scre (not the
thread)? i.e. a different numbering system to No.4, No.6, No. 8 and so on.
Close enough to be confusing.

If thats the case case 4 x 40mm would seem about right?

Cheers,
Chris

Having multiple drills available helps!

By an odd sequence of events I have 3 cordless drills... which i've noticed
helps enourmously for clearancedrill + screwdriver.

I've also found those all-in-one clearace + counter bore + countersink bits
pretty useful last time i boarded my loft (before I moved)


Even though quicker, I wouldn't use nails. Hammering sideways into the
joist is likely to disturb and crack the ceiling.

Ah, exactly the reason I am doing all loft related work before decorating
bedrooms and bathroom. I'd also built in to my DIY plan, time to fill where
the plaster will pop off the screw heads... I'm sure that will happen, but
using screws might keep it to a minimum

Yes, I almost never use nails.

Christian.

Likewise. With an impact driver easily capable of driving 6x100mm
screws into undrilled softwood, it's quick and easy to stiffen up any
structure.

Christian McArdle wrote:

Given how cheap good quality screws are
(http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...31374&ts=64000) I'd
be tempted to use them everywhere in structural timber.

Yes, I almost never use nails.

Christian.

what do you think of screws rather than nails to put on slates?
I see many roofers still using the hammer but I use screws myself
whenever I repair a roof.

what do you think of screws rather than nails to put on slates?
I see many roofers still using the hammer but I use screws myself
whenever I repair a roof.

Are they using copper clouts? I guess nowadays a stainless steel screw
might be a durable alternative, although the head diameter might not be
ideal.

wrote:

what do you think of screws rather than nails to put on slates?
I see many roofers still using the hammer but I use screws myself
whenever I repair a roof.

Are they using copper clouts? I guess nowadays a stainless steel screw
might be a durable alternative, although the head diameter might not be
ideal.

most people I see are using standard galvanised slab nails to secure
the asbestos slates although the same people most often use the
anodised screws to put up the slabs.
what say the experts about screws on the slates?

wrote in message
oups.com...

wrote:

what do you think of screws rather than nails to put on slates?
I see many roofers still using the hammer but I use screws myself
whenever I repair a roof.

Are they using copper clouts? I guess nowadays a stainless steel screw
might be a durable alternative, although the head diameter might not be
ideal.

most people I see are using standard galvanised slab nails to secure
the asbestos slates although the same people most often use the
anodised screws to put up the slabs.
what say the experts about screws on the slates?

Any one who uses screws or galvanised nails for fixing slates, wants them
sticking where the sun don't shine.
Copper or Aluminium are the only nails used for fixing slates.
Its obverse that you have never tried to remove a slate from a roof fixed
with screws or galvanised nails.
Not only do the rust but are *******s to get out.

I see what you're getting at - the fact that a slaters nail ripper
can't be used when a single slate needs replacing - I see sense of
copper nails.

wrote:
I see what you're getting at - the fact that a slaters nail ripper
can't be used when a single slate needs replacing - I see sense of
copper nails.

A ripper would just as easily break a screw out of the lathe. In a
storm, screws would probably hold out better than nails but many
slaters use ordinary slab nails for slates and they are long gone and
forgotten about before any damage would arise. However in a severe
storm a roof slated with brass screws would probably give a better grip
but would they stand the test of time. Thats the real question.
Repairing a roof that is about two hundred and fifty years old recently
I find that a lot of the old iron slating nails are rusted nearly to
death probably from dampness and condensation. Its a pretty good record
for iron because they had no protective coatings then.
After a certain age iron starts to rust and knit into the lathes and I
guess it is almost like a screw then.
The cordless drill and screws is so handy and vibration free it is
definitely the best option for repairing a roof.

wrote:
wrote:
I see what you're getting at - the fact that a slaters nail ripper
can't be used when a single slate needs replacing - I see sense of
copper nails.

A ripper would just as easily break a screw out of the lathe.

We are talking rooves here, not engineering machines, aren't we?
In a
storm, screws would probably hold out better than nails but many
slaters use ordinary slab nails for slates and they are long gone and
forgotten about before any damage would arise. However in a severe
storm a roof slated with brass screws would probably give a better grip
but would they stand the test of time. Thats the real question.
Repairing a roof that is about two hundred and fifty years old recently
I find that a lot of the old iron slating nails are rusted nearly to
death probably from dampness and condensation. Its a pretty good record
for iron because they had no protective coatings then.
After a certain age iron starts to rust and knit into the lathes and I
guess it is almost like a screw then.
The cordless drill and screws is so handy and vibration free it is
definitely the best option for repairing a roof.

wrote in message
ups.com...
I see what you're getting at - the fact that a slaters nail ripper
can't be used when a single slate needs replacing - I see sense of
copper nails.

The use of a rip. For the cutting through and removal the copper, zinc or
alloy slate nails. If the slates have been fixed with iron, galanised or
any type of screw all that will happen is the lath will snap or a piece will
brack off. Yes any screw will hold but it not a professional way its done.
Any roofing contractor using any other fixing method other than copper or
alloy nail for fixing slates. would be class as a cowboy.

The rip can and is used for single and top half broken slate removal !!

Chris Styles wrote:
WHen I wwas talking about truss bracing, there were a few suggestions that
even the type of nail to use was part of the spec.

Yes, my unsderstanding is that is so. It has to be said that nailing
is far less fashionable than it once was. Perhaps that is due to ready
availability of decent screwdriving tools.


So, when it comes to nailing in wooden herringbones (or steel ones for that
matter), or nailing truss clips to the wall plates, are there special nails
to use, or would 50mm round wire nails suffice?

The last time I put in trusses it came with a booklet from the Trussed
Roof Association and IIRC 3mm x 75mm galvanized nails were specified
for nailing most it together. That nail size is excellent for fixing
herringbones though you might neeed to drill a pilot 2.5mm hole to
avoid splitting.

IMHO whatever you use should be galvanized (or perhaps in some cases
stainless steel or brass) for anything even remotely exposed to outdoor
conditions - & that includes attics.

The snag with nails is that rust eventually rots them away, usually
near the entry point into the wood. With screws it is wood drying out
and shrinking around the thread, leaving them loose. OTOH an old
risted screw firmly embedded in wood can be a devil to get out.

Someone somewhere must have studied or measured the comparative grip of
nails and screws, but the results have never crossed my path. My guess
is that a good nail with a rough shank exerts much more grip than an
equivalent wood screw.

I suppose you pays your money and sees what happens; if you're lucky it
won't be you, but the next-but-one-owner of your house.

HTH

jim wrote:
Chris Styles wrote:
WHen I wwas talking about truss bracing, there were a few suggestions that
even the type of nail to use was part of the spec.

Yes, my unsderstanding is that is so. It has to be said that nailing
is far less fashionable than it once was. Perhaps that is due to ready
availability of decent screwdriving tools.

So, when it comes to nailing in wooden herringbones (or steel ones for that
matter), or nailing truss clips to the wall plates, are there special nails
to use, or would 50mm round wire nails suffice?

The last time I put in trusses it came with a booklet from the Trussed
Roof Association and IIRC 3mm x 75mm galvanized nails were specified
for nailing most it together. That nail size is excellent for fixing
herringbones though you might neeed to drill a pilot 2.5mm hole to
avoid splitting.

IMHO whatever you use should be galvanized (or perhaps in some cases
stainless steel or brass) for anything even remotely exposed to outdoor
conditions - & that includes attics.

The snag with nails is that rust eventually rots them away, usually
near the entry point into the wood. With screws it is wood drying out
and shrinking around the thread, leaving them loose. OTOH an old
risted screw firmly embedded in wood can be a devil to get out.

Someone somewhere must have studied or measured the comparative grip of
nails and screws, but the results have never crossed my path. My guess
is that a good nail with a rough shank exerts much more grip than an
equivalent wood screw.

It does. Studies have been done...

I suppose you pays your money and sees what happens; if you're lucky it
won't be you, but the next-but-one-owner of your house.

HTH

keith_765 wrote:
Any roofing contractor using any other fixing method other than
copper or
alloy nail for fixing slates. would be class as a cowboy.


I wonder if anyone else would agree with this?

wrote in message
ups.com...
keith_765 wrote:
Any roofing contractor using any other fixing method other than
copper or
alloy nail for fixing slates. would be class as a cowboy.


I wonder if anyone else would agree with this?

Would you agree that 52 years as a slater & tiler counts for the comments I
made

keith_765 wrote:


Would you agree that 52 years as a slater & tiler counts for the comments I
made


well I dont want to say you are in any way wrong but 52 years using
nails perhaps speaks for itself and you may be so set in your ways that
you are not be able to change your ways.
I wonder if you still use the old tar felt that caused so many houses
to burn so rapidly. dont you think that was a stupid material to use on
a roof?

For example some people who used ordinary screws before they found the
phillips screws were reluctant to change and wouldnt even try one
because they were so big headed.

The same can be said about the pop rivet which are so bloody inferior
to a tech screw but some people still use them and swear by them for
every job they do.

Tools and materials are changing all the time and traditional workers
hate change so your opinion is noted but I would like to hear some more.

wrote in message
ups.com...

keith_765 wrote:


Would you agree that 52 years as a slater & tiler counts for the
comments I
made


well I dont want to say you are in any way wrong but 52 years using
nails perhaps speaks for itself and you may be so set in your ways that
you are not be able to change your ways.

No Im not fixed in my ways.We have to use the nails fixings that are
stipulated by the recommendation by the BS code of practis


I wonder if you still use the old tar felt that caused so many houses
to burn so rapidly. don't you think that was a stupid material to use on
a roof?

Absouluty, Ive oftern wonder why the wasnt more fires. In the roofing trade
the use of bitumin type 1F felt is now praticaly not used. It heavy and
tears easy.
It never did cause the fire but help spread the flames by melting and
dripping. Tar paper was the worst. Best thing out is the new spun polyester
type. Mind you have you seen what happens to that when heat is applied, BIG
HOLES.

For example some people who used ordinary screws before they found the
phillips screws were reluctant to change and wouldnt even try one
because they were so big headed.

I find Phillip head screws brilliant, especaily with cordess drivers

The same can be said about the pop rivet which are so bloody inferior
to a tech screw but some people still use them and swear by them for
every job they do.

Sorry cant coment on theses as I dont use them

Tools and materials are changing all the time and traditional workers
hate change so your opinion is noted but I would like to hear some more.

Not in the construction trade, anything that makes work quicker and easyier.
Cordless tools, Paslode nailers, power planers, throw away saws and what a
differance diamond blades made.

wrote in message
ups.com...

The same can be said about the pop rivet which are so bloody inferior
to a tech screw but some people still use them and swear by them for
every job they do.

Wossat then? I use pop rivets occasionally for things like mudguards on
bikes. I'm not convinced a screw would be any better..

cheers,
clive

Clive George wrote:

Wossat then? I use pop rivets occasionally for things like mudguards
on
bikes. I'm not convinced a screw would be any better..

the tech screw has a hex head and is made like a screw with a drill
bit at its head.
You drive it with a tech screw holder in the drill costs two or three
quid.
Best invention since sliced bread but perhaps not for mudguards on
bikes as the head would show but for most jobs fixing metals. I use
them to drill holes in steel because they are quicker to drill steel
than an ordinary drill bit.
They are brilliant for fixing loose slates on a roof if you drill the
hole first with a steel boring screw and then put a wood boring tech
screw into the slate. Saves ripping out the slate and using strips of
lead like they used to do.