I have an extension lead (from a 13 amp plug) running out of a window from
the house, over the lawn to the shed , to power a light / fridge in the
garage and want to improve this (very unsatisfactory) arrangement. I am not
"part P", don't really want to pay a fortune, and have the following
queries.

Is this technically not actually illegal ? Could I run the outside bit in
buried SWA, but still have it "plugged in" via a 13 amp plug in the house,
so its unpluggable ? Can I leave as is ? What should I do to comply with
all the current regs ( which I am unaware of at the moment) ?

Thanks,

Nick

Nick wrote:
I have an extension lead (from a 13 amp plug) running out of a window from
the house, over the lawn to the shed , to power a light / fridge in the
garage and want to improve this (very unsatisfactory) arrangement. I am not
"part P", don't really want to pay a fortune, and have the following
queries.

Is this technically not actually illegal ? Could I run the outside bit in
buried SWA, but still have it "plugged in" via a 13 amp plug in the house,
so its unpluggable ? Can I leave as is ? What should I do to comply with
all the current regs ( which I am unaware of at the moment) ?

Thanks,

Nick


Unless the BCO is calling or you intend to sell the house, who gives a damn?

If the socket is RCD protected and fused at 13A I would say you are
entirely legal.

IF you can be bothered I'd spur of a buried armoured cable from an MCB
appropriate to the gauge of buried cable, and stick a little RCD
protected consumer unit in the shed..and make a single 13A ring* and 5A
lighting circuit from that.

* or less if the main MCB for the shed is less and the cable underground
is less.

Nick wrote:

I have an extension lead (from a 13 amp plug) running out of a window from
the house, over the lawn to the shed , to power a light / fridge in the
garage and want to improve this (very unsatisfactory) arrangement. I am not
"part P", don't really want to pay a fortune, and have the following
queries.

Is this technically not actually illegal ? Could I run the outside bit in
buried SWA, but still have it "plugged in" via a 13 amp plug in the house,
so its unpluggable ? Can I leave as is ? What should I do to comply with
all the current regs ( which I am unaware of at the moment) ?

Well given that you are asking this question, could I politely suggest
that you call in an electrician and get it done properly.

You cannot avoid the requirements of "Part P" by just plugging in the
circuit or appliance.

John
--
John White,
Electrical Contractor

Nick wrote:
I have an extension lead (from a 13 amp plug) running out of a
window from the house, over the lawn to the shed , to power a light /
fridge in the garage and want to improve this (very unsatisfactory)
arrangement. I am not "part P", don't really want to pay a fortune,
and have the following queries.

Is this technically not actually illegal ? Could I run the outside
bit in buried SWA, but still have it "plugged in" via a 13 amp plug
in the house, so its unpluggable ? Can I leave as is ? What should
I do to comply with all the current regs ( which I am unaware of at
the moment) ?
Thanks,

Nick

Interesting question and this was put to a BCO by me only a few weeks ago
WRT a garage I built, his answer was that you can have armoured cable, T&E,
sleeved or unsleeved or anything you want - as long as it's plugged in it
remains an 'extension lead' - only once it's wired directly into the mains
is it of any interest to BC or anyone else.

Obviously for your own safety you want it below ground, preferably armoured,
but if you use T&E, put it into alkathene (blue plastic water main) it's
unlikely to come to any harm, especially if you place bricks along any
lengths that are likely to be dug into.

Official document he

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/eng...000001253.html

Current situation is, I believe, legal. This is because no part of it
is "fixed wiring". However it's undesirable because of its
vulnerability to damage.

Generally anything that goes outside you house should be RCD protected
(although that conflicts a bit with the possibility of the freezer
tripping out).

Best solution is buried SWA (check the rules on how it should be
buried) to a spare MCB in your consumer unit and RCD unit in the
garage. This would require you to submit a building notice to your
council's building control dept, if you wish to do the work yourself.


Nick wrote:
I have an extension lead (from a 13 amp plug) running out of a window from
the house, over the lawn to the shed , to power a light / fridge in the
garage and want to improve this (very unsatisfactory) arrangement. I am not
"part P", don't really want to pay a fortune, and have the following
queries.

Is this technically not actually illegal ? Could I run the outside bit in
buried SWA, but still have it "plugged in" via a 13 amp plug in the house,
so its unpluggable ? Can I leave as is ? What should I do to comply with
all the current regs ( which I am unaware of at the moment) ?

Thanks,

Nick

John White wrote:
Nick wrote:

I have an extension lead (from a 13 amp plug) running out of a
window from the house, over the lawn to the shed , to power a light
/ fridge in the garage and want to improve this (very
unsatisfactory) arrangement. I am not "part P", don't really want to
pay a fortune, and have the following queries.

Is this technically not actually illegal ? Could I run the
outside bit in buried SWA, but still have it "plugged in" via a 13
amp plug in the house, so its unpluggable ? Can I leave as is ?
What should I do to comply with all the current regs ( which I am
unaware of at the moment) ?

Well given that you are asking this question, could I politely suggest
that you call in an electrician and get it done properly.


This group is called uk.d-i-y, and the last time I checked it wasn't illegal
to carry out wiring or rewiring, whether you are certified or not.

You cannot avoid the requirements of "Part P" by just plugging in the
circuit or appliance.


How do I comply with part P each time I want to mow the lawn then?

Thanks for all the replies

Nick

Phil L wrote:

John White wrote:
Nick wrote:

I have an extension lead (from a 13 amp plug) running out of a
window from the house, over the lawn to the shed , to power a light
/ fridge in the garage and want to improve this (very
unsatisfactory) arrangement. I am not "part P", don't really want to
pay a fortune, and have the following queries.

Is this technically not actually illegal ? Could I run the
outside bit in buried SWA, but still have it "plugged in" via a 13
amp plug in the house, so its unpluggable ? Can I leave as is ?
What should I do to comply with all the current regs ( which I am
unaware of at the moment) ?

Well given that you are asking this question, could I politely suggest
that you call in an electrician and get it done properly.

This group is called uk.d-i-y,

And your point is?

and the last time I checked it wasn't illegal
to carry out wiring or rewiring, whether you are certified or not.

Correct, but it can carry the death penalty if you don't do it
properly. Given the OP's stated level of knowledge regarding the regs
etc. then I politely suggested that he might consider using a
professional electrician to do this.

If he wishes to d-i-y it then good luck to him.

You cannot avoid the requirements of "Part P" by just plugging in the
circuit or appliance.

How do I comply with part P each time I want to mow the lawn then?

You do not have to comply with part P to mow the lawn unless you plan
to install a new fixed circuit each time you do so.

Let me explain my point with an example:

If you install a new central heating boiler then, in England and
Wales, the associated electrical installation always comes under Part
P of the Building regulations.

[See Building Regs Part P, page 9, section n]

Normally you would wire the boiler and its control circuits into a
FCU. Putting a plug on the boiler and plugging it into a convenient
socket does not change the fact that Part P applies.

[See Building Regs Part P, page 9, section h]

Individual BCOs may choose to interpret the regulations differently,
but that's the local version.

John
--
John White,
Electrical Contractor

The message
from "Phil L" contains these words:

This group is called uk.d-i-y,

It won't be long before some interfering nanny type passes a regulation
insisting it be called "uk.you'd better get a little man in to do that
for you".

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

John White wrote:
Phil L wrote:

John White wrote:
Nick wrote:

I have an extension lead (from a 13 amp plug) running out of a
window from the house, over the lawn to the shed , to power a light
/ fridge in the garage and want to improve this (very
unsatisfactory) arrangement. I am not "part P", don't really want
to pay a fortune, and have the following queries.

Is this technically not actually illegal ? Could I run the
outside bit in buried SWA, but still have it "plugged in" via a 13
amp plug in the house, so its unpluggable ? Can I leave as is ?
What should I do to comply with all the current regs ( which I am
unaware of at the moment) ?

Well given that you are asking this question, could I politely
suggest that you call in an electrician and get it done properly.

This group is called uk.d-i-y,

And your point is?

and the last time I checked it wasn't illegal
to carry out wiring or rewiring, whether you are certified or not.

Correct, but it can carry the death penalty if you don't do it
properly. Given the OP's stated level of knowledge regarding the regs
etc. then I politely suggested that he might consider using a
professional electrician to do this.

If he wishes to d-i-y it then good luck to him.

You cannot avoid the requirements of "Part P" by just plugging in
the circuit or appliance.

How do I comply with part P each time I want to mow the lawn then?

You do not have to comply with part P to mow the lawn unless you plan
to install a new fixed circuit each time you do so.

It's an extension lead, plugged into a (protected) socket, the fact that it
stays there for a long time does not mean it's a fixed circuit.


Let me explain my point with an example:

If you install a new central heating boiler then, in England and
Wales, the associated electrical installation always comes under Part
P of the Building regulations.

[See Building Regs Part P, page 9, section n]

Normally you would wire the boiler and its control circuits into a
FCU. Putting a plug on the boiler and plugging it into a convenient
socket does not change the fact that Part P applies.

[See Building Regs Part P, page 9, section h]

Individual BCOs may choose to interpret the regulations differently,
but that's the local version.


I know, but it's a load of ******** isn't it? - your governing body (neciec
or similar) has 'done a corgi' and now fensa have done the same, they are
all based on 'safety' but you know as well as everyone else in this group
that it's got feck all to do with safety and everything to do with
money...I'm not blaming you for trying to protect your interests, nor for
going along with it and making a wad along the way, you'd be an idiot to
turn it down, but please don't try to tell me that a boiler wired directly
into the mains is any safer than one with it's own 13amp fuse and plugged
into a socket.

In message , John White
writes
Phil L wrote:

John White wrote:
Nick wrote:

I have an extension lead (from a 13 amp plug) running out of a
window from the house, over the lawn to the shed , to power a light
/ fridge in the garage and want to improve this (very
unsatisfactory) arrangement. I am not "part P", don't really want to
pay a fortune, and have the following queries.

Is this technically not actually illegal ? Could I run the
outside bit in buried SWA, but still have it "plugged in" via a 13
amp plug in the house, so its unpluggable ? Can I leave as is ?
What should I do to comply with all the current regs ( which I am
unaware of at the moment) ?

Well given that you are asking this question, could I politely suggest
that you call in an electrician and get it done properly.

This group is called uk.d-i-y,

And your point is?

and the last time I checked it wasn't illegal
to carry out wiring or rewiring, whether you are certified or not.

Correct, but it can carry the death penalty if you don't do it
properly.

Which is perhaps why he asked here before doing what is, in reality, a
fairly trivial procedure

There are those of us here for whom "getting a man in" is not going to
happen, and are quite happy to help anyone else who feels the same way

--
geoff

John White wrote:

You cannot avoid the requirements of "Part P" by just plugging in the
circuit or appliance.

In reality you can. Buried swa + CU + fixed feed = part p applies,
whereas
plugin extension lead = part p doesnt apply.

So long as this is used by the householder in their own home, plugging
in an extension lead, and far worse things, are all quite legal. There
is no requirement for any rcd. A permanent installation would be a
different matter.

Best practice is also a different thing again.


NT

but if you use T&E, put it into alkathene (blue plastic water main) it's
unlikely to come to any harm, especially if you place bricks along any
lengths that are likely to be dug into.

The colours of underground services are an important safety indication and
should be followed. Blue MDPE water pipe is not acceptable as a duct for LV
electrical cabling. Quite frankly using anything other than SWA cable for
this application would be silly.

Some of the colours, I'm sure there are more I've forgotten:

Blue = Water
Yellow = Gas
Red = High Tension Electric
Black = Low Tension Electric
Grey = Telecomms
Green = Fibre Optic
Orange = Railway Signalling
Purple = Motorway Signalling + Power

Christian.

Grey = Telecomms
Green = Fibre Optic

Grey is BT

Green is other telecom providers.

Both fibre and copper are in both. I suspect BT aren't following the
standard
of green for telecoms.

Ah. Confusion on my part. Probably because (legacy) BT normally uses copper
and others (more recently installed) normally use fibre!

Christian.

John White wrote:

This group is called uk.d-i-y,

And your point is?


That we all need to start somewhere. telling someone to get an
electrician in, to do something they may be perfectly capable of
learning how to do appropriately, serves no purpose other than to keep
the "jobs for the boys".

The poster wants to learn how to comply with regulations he is
currently unfamiliar with. At the very least suggest some good reading
materials.

MBQ

wrote in message
oups.com...

John White wrote:

This group is called uk.d-i-y,

And your point is?


That we all need to start somewhere. telling someone to get an
electrician in, to do something they may be perfectly capable of
learning how to do appropriately, serves no purpose other than to keep
the "jobs for the boys".

The poster wants to learn how to comply with regulations he is
currently unfamiliar with. At the very least suggest some good reading
materials.

MBQ

Thank you MBQ ! - I am an electronics engineer and very familiar with things
electrical - and as you quite rightly say, just unfamiliar with
prat P and the regs this week - I am totally capable of putting together a
safe system, have calculated voltage drops for the max current required and
the length involved, but admit to not knowing what the regs are this week
and whether the council inspect every installation and wiring modification
weekly, monthly, annually or never.... and I have NO intention of
feathering some "electricians" purse who may well have spent much time
learning the regs, but as a capable person the job will be done by myself,
if at all, after receiving guidance from those that are willing and able to
provide constructive comments and answers to my questions.

Just because this is a "D-I-Y" group, it does not mean we are ALL stupid,
ignorant and beneath (some of) those that have possibly got a few
questionable letters after their name (virtuous as that may be) - we just
have skills in other areas... If I don't know, I ask, then decide if the
job is for me.

Thanks again,

Nick

Phil L wrote:

but please don't try to tell me that a boiler wired directly
into the mains is any safer than one with it's own 13amp fuse and plugged
into a socket.


A 3 amp fuse might be a more sensible option.

:¬)

--
http://gymratz.co.uk - Best Gym Equipment & Bodybuilding Supplements UK.
http://trade-price-supplements.co.uk - TRADE PRICED SUPPLEMENTS for ALL!
http://fitness-equipment-uk.com - UK's No.1 Fitness Equipment Suppliers.
http://Water-Rower.co.uk - Worlds best prices on the Worlds best Rower.

Phil L wrote:

John White wrote:

[About Part P]

Individual BCOs may choose to interpret the regulations differently,
but that's the local version.

I know, but it's a load of ******** isn't it? - your governing body (neciec
or similar) has 'done a corgi' and now fensa have done the same, they are
all based on 'safety' but you know as well as everyone else in this group
that it's got feck all to do with safety and everything to do with
money...I'm not blaming you for trying to protect your interests, nor for
going along with it and making a wad along the way, you'd be an idiot to
turn it down,

While I basically agree with what you say, especially about Part P,
safety and money, I would just like to correct one or two
misunderstandings...

I don't belong to NICEIC or any other trade body for that matter. In
fact you'll find that most sole traders don't - despite what these
bodies like to suggest.

Usually it is the "firm" that is registered and not necessarily the
individual carrying out the work. Most registered firms are good,
conscientious businesses, but you do get ones where the certificates
get signed by somebody that has never seen the installation.

I'm also not registered to self-certify for Part P - hence my
knowledge of how the local BCO's implement it. Most of my work is
outside the scope of "Part P" and there's usually a BCO involved
already when it does apply.

Frankly I have better things to do with my money (or "wad" if you
prefer) than to pay the annual fees involved. I would also have to
pass on the costs to my customers.

BTW I don't have any problem with people carrying out d-i-y electrics.
In fact most d-i-y enthusiasts will make a much better job of it than
some so-called professionals. Don't forget there's money in sorting
out the odd d-i-y disaster as well. :-)

but please don't try to tell me that a boiler wired directly
into the mains is any safer than one with it's own 13amp fuse and plugged
into a socket.

Well there we must agree to differ. :-)

John
--
John White,
Electrical Contractor

but please don't try to tell me that a boiler wired directly
into the mains is any safer than one with it's own 13amp fuse and plugged
into a socket.

Well there we must agree to differ. :-)

John

I would be interested to hear your explanation....

Nick

Nick wrote:
John White wrote:
Phil L wrote:
but please don't try to tell me that a boiler wired directly
into the mains is any safer than one with it's own 13amp fuse and plugged
into a socket.

Well there we must agree to differ. :-)

I would be interested to hear your explanation....

It's probably a bit esoteric but my concerns are about what else gets
plugged into the socket.

I was asked to PIR a large Edwardian villa that had been converted
into eight flats. In each case the flat's combi boiler had been
located in a bathroom cupboard.

This should not have been a problem as all the controls had been
positioned elsewhere. Unfortunately the installer had used a plug and
socket to connect the boiler rather than a FCU, with the result that
the tenants had used the "handy" socket to plug in other appliances.

To add to the fun the boiler was on its own 16A MCB which was
(correctly) fed from the non-RCD section of the consumer unit.

This does not just affect boilers by the way, I have seen immersion
heaters where a plug and socket arrangement was abused in the same
way.

When I was an apprentice some thirty-mumble years ago we were taught
that a fixed appliance should always be hard-wired and never plugged
in.

Perhaps I'm getting old. :-)

John
--
John White,
Electrical Contractor

but please don't try to tell me that a boiler wired directly
into the mains is any safer than one with it's own 13amp fuse and
plugged
into a socket.

Well there we must agree to differ. :-)

I would be interested to hear your explanation....

It's probably a bit esoteric but my concerns are about what else gets
plugged into the socket.

I was asked to PIR a large Edwardian villa that had been converted
into eight flats. In each case the flat's combi boiler had been
located in a bathroom cupboard.

This should not have been a problem as all the controls had been
positioned elsewhere. Unfortunately the installer had used a plug and
socket to connect the boiler rather than a FCU, with the result that
the tenants had used the "handy" socket to plug in other appliances.

To add to the fun the boiler was on its own 16A MCB which was
(correctly) fed from the non-RCD section of the consumer unit.

This does not just affect boilers by the way, I have seen immersion
heaters where a plug and socket arrangement was abused in the same
way.

When I was an apprentice some thirty-mumble years ago we were taught
that a fixed appliance should always be hard-wired and never plugged
in.

Perhaps I'm getting old. :-)

John
--
John White,
Electrical Contractor

I think I can see the point that you are possibly making... that is that
the socket
(assumed to be a double or have a multiway adaptor plugged in) may be
"overloaded".

A boiler will take perhaps 250 watts - say 1 amp and the heater may take
another
12 amps or so - that's not more than 16A, and certainly not more than a ring
with a
32A CCT breaker protecting it. The possible likely event is that the breaker
might trip
but that is not "dangerous" (is it ?) The same can happen at every other
double
socket in the house !
I suppose the boiler would not function if the circuit was tripped out so it
might be cold.

I really can't see why this is "dangerous" !

Nick

[About fixed appliances being plugged in]

John White wrote:

I was asked to PIR a large Edwardian villa that had been converted
into eight flats. In each case the flat's combi boiler had been
located in a bathroom cupboard.

This should not have been a problem as all the controls had been
positioned elsewhere. Unfortunately the installer had used a plug and
socket to connect the boiler rather than a FCU, with the result that
the tenants had used the "handy" socket to plug in other appliances.

Nick wrote:

I think I can see the point that you are possibly making... that is that
the socket
(assumed to be a double or have a multiway adaptor plugged in) may be
"overloaded".

[...]

I really can't see why this is "dangerous" !

No, sorry, you're missing the point.

I'm not concerned about the socket being overloaded. The MCB would
protect the cable assuming it had been specified correctly at the
design stage. Like fuses, MCBs protect the cable and not the
appliance.

What I am concerned about is there being (in the example I gave) a
socket installed in a bathroom. This is definitely a bad idea - as
well as being prohibited by the regs. In this case there was not even
a RCD as a backup safety device.

One flat had a hairdryer plugged into the socket and lying on the
glass shelf over the basin. Sooner or later somebody will knock it
into the basin, and then reach into the water to pull it out...

If the boiler was wired into a FCU then the socket would not have been
available to be abused in the first place.

On a PIR I would (and did) flag up such an installation as being
unsafe and requiring immediate attention.

John
--
John White,
Electrical Contractor

Oh, absolutely - you naturally see many more installations than I do, and I
can understand and completely agree that
such an installation should be (is) definitely not permitted, nor should it
be done by any D-I-Yer for just that very reason.

One day the house will be sold and almost certainly to someone who doesn't
appreciate the danger quite apart from the
fact that the installation should not give the opportunity for the danger to
arise in the first place.

Thanks for the example

Nick

After considering all replies, I think I will arrange for there to be a SWA
cable laid underground from the CU in the house, to a small CU in the
garage, with an RCD within, and the lights / power fed from this.

The house system is TN-S ..... would it be correct for the earth to be
exported, or kept separate and derived from a local spike, just bringing
out live and neutral. ?

Thanks,

Nick