Right now this is a bit of rhetorical question, but...

....how do you stop compression fittings from leaking? I
plumbed in some new stuff at the weekend, but lots of the
joints are now leaking. I resisted using PTFE tape on
every single joint, but is that the answer? PTFE wrapped
around every olive..?

G.

"G.W. Walker" wrote in message
...


Right now this is a bit of rhetorical question, but...

...how do you stop compression fittings from leaking? I
plumbed in some new stuff at the weekend, but lots of the
joints are now leaking. I resisted using PTFE tape on
every single joint, but is that the answer? PTFE wrapped
around every olive..?

Don'k know about anyone else, but when I've done it the tape goes on the
thread - not on the olive. Need to make sure that the pipe is smooth and
cleanly cut and that the pipe stays well inside the joint through tightening
so that the olive can be properly compressed onto it.

The message
from (G.W. Walker) contains these words:

....how do you stop compression fittings from leaking? I
plumbed in some new stuff at the weekend, but lots of the
joints are now leaking. I resisted using PTFE tape on
every single joint, but is that the answer? PTFE wrapped
around every olive..?

The seal is made by the metal to metal contact between the olive and the
pipe, and the olive and the tapered seat in the fitting. Both mating
areas have to be very clean and smooth, the pipe has to be lined up well
enough and the fitting has to be done up tight. PTFE tape can serve no
purpose in a compression fitting whatsoever apart from to confuse the
issue and make a balls up.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

G.W. Walker wrote:
Right now this is a bit of rhetorical question, but...

...how do you stop compression fittings from leaking? I
plumbed in some new stuff at the weekend, but lots of the
joints are now leaking. I resisted using PTFE tape on
every single joint, but is that the answer? PTFE wrapped
around every olive..?

G.

Why did you 'resist' using PTFE?
Would you resist using a blowtorch if you were using solder joints?
This is what PTFE is for, very rarely can a watertight seal be achieved
without it....they just don't tighten up properly.

In message , Phil L
writes
G.W. Walker wrote:
Right now this is a bit of rhetorical question, but...

...how do you stop compression fittings from leaking? I
plumbed in some new stuff at the weekend, but lots of the
joints are now leaking. I resisted using PTFE tape on
every single joint, but is that the answer? PTFE wrapped
around every olive..?

G.

Why did you 'resist' using PTFE?
Would you resist using a blowtorch if you were using solder joints?
This is what PTFE is for, very rarely can a watertight seal be achieved
without it....they just don't tighten up properly.

What ********, I've never had to use PTFE tape on a compression joint to
seal it
--
Chris French

"Phil L" wrote in message
k...
Would you resist using a blowtorch if you were using solder joints?

This is what PTFE is for,

********!!

very rarely can a watertight seal be achieved without it....they just don't
tighten up properly.

A compression fitting is DESIGNED to give a watertight (and gas tight - with
the correct fiiting) with only itself and the olive. PTFE tape is not a
'"must include" extra for every fitting. If done correctly a compression
fitting WILL be leak free without PTFE.

HTH

John

PTFE is not made for use on compression fittings. It never has been and
never will be.

However, as with most diy offerings a resourceful person will read that
it can be "used" on compression fittings but it is primarily
geared(IMHO) for making a watertight seal on a thread/nut combination
i.e where water can squeeze around the threads due to the space between
nut and thread - otherwise you wouldn't be able to screw the nut on!!!
The watertight seal in a compression fitting is made by the olive
(brass ring) compressing slightly onto the pipe whilst at the same time
being squeezed up tightly into the neck of the fitting. The subsequent
mating of surfaces is watertight. Just try to pull an olive off a brass
pipe once a joint has been 'done up' properly. In most cases you have
to cut the pipe again.

My old man made them for 30 years and before speedfit/pushfit plumbing
came along they were the godsend for DIY plumbers who didn't want to
solder fittings. Yes they are a bit more wieldy and do take a bit more
time but they give you the opportunity to break the joints and remake
where a solder joint is usually well fixed for life!

Compression fittings do leak - ONLY WHEN you haven't followed the
correct procedures or you have a faulty olive or fitting.

Some of the more common issues -

Don't reuse olives - they cost a few pence and if you have already
squeezed them onto one pipe whilst doing up a joint, chances are the
next pipe you stick it onto will be a slightly different shape.

Make sure the copper pipe enters the fitting in a straight line. If it
goes in squint then you will have to tighten the fitting more and more
until you get to waterfastness. If you tighten it too much you will
start to compress the pipe and leaks will develop. A good rule is to
get it to a tightness that feels comfortable ( 10 inch spanner ) then
roughly three quarter turn from then. If you get leaks, then notch it
up a quarter turn each time until the leak stops.

Make sure no swarf ( little bits of brass from cutting the pipe) get
into the joint, either under the olive, or into the compression fitting
itself i.e clean the pipe before you make the joint.

Don't use pipes covered in paint or other crap as they will affect the
waterfastness. Either sandpaper off the paint etc where the joint is to
be made or use a new piece of copper.

If you use plastic pipes then make sure you use a small pipe insert at
the compression fitting. Yes you can make the joint watertight without
it but given you are compressing plastic pipe then it doesn't take much
to screw it up. The internal inserts costs a few pence and give the
pipe some rigidity at the olive point.

Simplest way is to make all your joints as tight as you thing they
should be( and you can make them reasonably tight) then turn on the
water...Dry all joints with some tissue paper and wait a couple of
minutes..Then go back over with a tissue and see if it gets wet. If no
visible drips but paper is a little wet then that joint needs a
tweak...If you have water p*ssing out of the joint then you've either
not made it tight enough or you are missing an olive!! Yes it has
happened now and again....

Good luck...

John wrote:
"Phil L" wrote in message
k...
Would you resist using a blowtorch if you were using solder joints?

This is what PTFE is for,

********!!

very rarely can a watertight seal be achieved without it....they just
don't tighten up properly.

A compression fitting is DESIGNED to give a watertight (and gas tight
- with the correct fiiting) with only itself and the olive. PTFE
tape is not a '"must include" extra for every fitting. If done
correctly a compression fitting WILL be leak free without PTFE.

HTH

John

I have to agree with him Phillip PTFE was primarily a temporary fix
solution in the early days of it appearing on the market until a
satisfactory job was known to be good.

As the man said...
"If done correctly a compression fitting WILL be leak free without PTFE".

--
Sir Benjamin Middlethwaite

G.W. Walker wrote:



Right now this is a bit of rhetorical question, but...

...how do you stop compression fittings from leaking? I
plumbed in some new stuff at the weekend, but lots of the
joints are now leaking. I resisted using PTFE tape on
every single joint, but is that the answer? PTFE wrapped
around every olive..?

G.

As everyone else said, PTFE is a bodge.

It's supposed to be a metal-metal joint with the olive deforming to make a
seal. Metal-metal seals are superior to almost anything else in their
league if done correctly.

Common mistakes:

a) not preparing the parts - swarf etc;

b) Over tightening. Do the nut finger tight, then about one turn with a
spanner. It's better to err of being undertight, because you can tighten
more. Over-tight and the olive is bent. Turn the water on and look for
weeping joints, tighten gently until they don't. Eventutally you get a
knack of how tight to do them in the first place.

If you do get a weepy joint or if you are having trouble with re-assembling
an old joint, a slight smear of Boss Green on the olive should fix it and
is less of a nasty hack than PTFE.

Cheers

Tim

Common mistakes:

a) not preparing the parts - swarf etc;



I agree - gritty dirty parts are the enemy.

John

G.W. Walker wrote:
...how do you stop compression fittings from leaking? I
plumbed in some new stuff at the weekend, but lots of the
joints are now leaking.

You may not have tightened them enough, undo one and look
at the olive. It should have squeezed into the pipe by a
small amount, enough so that it's tight on the tube but
not excessively sunk into it, or deformed. If you have not
done them up enough, do them up a little more until they
don't leak! If you've over-tightened them, they're scrap.


I resisted using PTFE tape on
every single joint, but is that the answer? PTFE wrapped
around every olive..?

You should not use PTFE tape or anything else on these
joints.

In article ,
G.W. Walker wrote:
...how do you stop compression fittings from leaking? I
plumbed in some new stuff at the weekend, but lots of the
joints are now leaking. I resisted using PTFE tape on
every single joint, but is that the answer? PTFE wrapped
around every olive..?

Either you've not tightened them properly, you've had a poor quality batch
(unlikely), or your preparation was poor.

The pipe must be undamaged and cut square with a proper cutter. Then
cleaned till it gleams with either wire wool or a suitable abrasive
material.

Examine the mating surfaces of the olive and fitting for signs of damage
or swarf etc. And it should be spotlessly clean - same as the pipe.

If all this proves OK a properly tightened compression fitting won't leak.

--
*Avoid clichés like the plague. (They're old hat.) *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Tim S wrote:
If you do get a weepy joint or if you are having trouble with
re-assembling an old joint, a slight smear of Boss Green on the olive
should fix it and is less of a nasty hack than PTFE.

Fernox LX is a better bet these days.

--
*Would a fly without wings be called a walk?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Tim S wrote:

b) Over tightening. Do the nut finger tight, then about one turn with a
spanner. It's better to err of being undertight, because you can tighten
more. Over-tight and the olive is bent. Turn the water on and look for
weeping joints, tighten gently until they don't. Eventutally you get a
knack of how tight to do them in the first place.

Ta for all the replies. I couldn't see how PTFE would
help either. The pipes are new, spotlessly clean, cut
absolutely square, and the joints aligned well.

I'd not appreciated that it was possible to over-tighten
them -- looks like that might be where I've gone wrong
with some of them. Time to dis-assemble and try being
less enthusiastic with the spanner this time!

Thanks again.

G.

The message
from "Phil L" contains these words:

This is what PTFE is for, very rarely can a watertight seal be achieved
without it....they just don't tighten up properly.

PTFE tape is for joints which use the thread to seal - which compression
joints don't.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

In article ,
G.W. Walker wrote:
I'd not appreciated that it was possible to over-tighten
them -- looks like that might be where I've gone wrong
with some of them. Time to dis-assemble and try being
less enthusiastic with the spanner this time!

IMHO it's near impossible to overtighten them with normal spanners -
although you obviously could with large Stilsons etc.

With a properly made compression joint it isn't possible to remove the
olive without splitting it - it should be sort of cold welded on, without
noticeably distorting the pipe diameter.

If you can pull off the olive or turn it it wasn't tight enough.

--
*Cover me. I'm changing lanes.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

With a properly made compression joint it isn't possible to remove the
olive without splitting it - it should be sort of cold welded on, without
noticeably distorting the pipe diameter.

If you can pull off the olive or turn it it wasn't tight enough.

Olives are always well compressed on to the pipe when
I've dis-assmbled joints in the past. Never seen a
loose one.

Serves me right for not soldering them all I guess!

G.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
With a properly made compression joint it isn't possible to remove the
olive without splitting it - it should be sort of cold welded on, without
noticeably distorting the pipe diameter.

Nothing's "welded", the olive indents the tube a fraction. It
doesn't need much.


If you can pull off the olive or turn it it wasn't tight enough.

Absolutely.

In article ,
Chris Bacon wrote:
With a properly made compression joint it isn't possible to remove the
olive without splitting it - it should be sort of cold welded on,
without noticeably distorting the pipe diameter.

Nothing's "welded", the olive indents the tube a fraction. It
doesn't need much.

That's why I said 'sort of' meaning it can't be moved.


If you can pull off the olive or turn it it wasn't tight enough.

Absolutely.

--
*TEAMWORK...means never having to take all the blame yourself *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 2 May 2006 22:15:08 GMT, (G.W. Walker) wrote:



Right now this is a bit of rhetorical question, but...

...how do you stop compression fittings from leaking? I
plumbed in some new stuff at the weekend, but lots of the
joints are now leaking. I resisted using PTFE tape on
every single joint, but is that the answer? PTFE wrapped
around every olive..?

G.

Even when visibly defect free and cleaned with fine wire wool some
compression joint components will leak. They usually don't but it does
happen. So, I have 2 different approaches to these joints.

Sometimes the joint is going to be in a location where it's not
possible to put it to the test until a floorboard or other type of
covering has been put in place so that the rest of the job can be
assembled. These joints I always smear with Boss or wrap the
positioned olive with a couple of turns of PTFE tape. It's a sin but I
like it. I then do the standard finger tight 3/4 turn with a
spanner, plus a big pinch for luck.
Where possible with these hidden before being tested joints I leave
the loosely draped end of a long strip of cotton fabric like a strip
of old T-shirt around the joint and trail the other end out of the
confined area to a handy spot where, after turning the water back on
and giving it a little time, I can pull the strip of fabric out and
check it for dryness.

Most other compression joints that are visible and accessible I
usually leave tape or paste free and err slightly on the side of
slackness when tightening the joint. Then when the water's turned on
any that are weeping can be given an anti-depressent tweak.
--
Regards,
Mike Halmarack

Drop the (EGG) to email me.

On 3 May 2006 08:26:32 GMT, (G.W. Walker) wrote:

I'd not appreciated that it was possible to over-tighten
them -- looks like that might be where I've gone wrong
with some of them. Time to dis-assemble and try being
less enthusiastic with the spanner this time!

Hi,

Try practising with a short stub of copper, makes it possible to see
inside the pipe and gauge how tight it is when the olive 'prints'
through on the inside of the pipe.

IMO the way to a reliable compression joint is use a copper olive,
don't let the pipe bottom out in the fitting but pull it out a
fraction, and don't overtighten.

cheers,
Pete.

"The3rd Earl Of Derby" wrote in message
. uk...
John wrote:
"Phil L" wrote in message
k...
Would you resist using a blowtorch if you were using solder joints?

This is what PTFE is for,

********!!

very rarely can a watertight seal be achieved without it....they just
don't tighten up properly.

A compression fitting is DESIGNED to give a watertight (and gas tight
- with the correct fiiting) with only itself and the olive. PTFE
tape is not a '"must include" extra for every fitting. If done
correctly a compression fitting WILL be leak free without PTFE.

HTH

John

I have to agree with him Phillip PTFE was primarily a temporary fix
solution in the early days of it appearing on the market until a
satisfactory job was known to be good.

As the man said...
"If done correctly a compression fitting WILL be leak free without PTFE".

The _continuing_ problem in this country, is the lack of standardisation. If
only we just had the metric system here, we wouldn't have these problems.
A memory from the motor trade: At one time, there were three different
thread types used on a BSA Bantam m/cycle swinging rear fork spindle: BSF,
UNF fine, and Cycle.
Another memory: The early Morris Minor cars (split windscreen, sidevalve
engine) had mostly BSF threads, but the gearbox had Metric fine threaded
bolts. I could go on!!!

I think that the problem with compression joints is the possible mix of
English (1/2 inch, 3/4 inch) and Metric (15 m/m,
22 m/m) sizes.
I only have a small amount of DIY experience, by the way.

P.S. I've just changed the partition beads, and the two inner cords on a
small sash window. I wonder how much I would have been charged for this by a
professional person?

Sylvain.

--
Sir Benjamin Middlethwaite

Sylvain VAN DER WALDE wrote:
P.S. I've just changed the partition beads, and the two inner cords on a
small sash window. I wonder how much I would have been charged for this by a
professional person?

Partition beads... parting bead? Anyway, well done - this is the sort
of thing that many people would have DIY'd a while ago. Now I hear
that sometimes people change the whole window 'cos a cord has broken!

On Tue, 09 May 2006 21:45:03 GMT, "Sylvain VAN DER WALDE"
had this to say:


"The3rd Earl Of Derby" wrote in message
.uk...
John wrote:
"Phil L" wrote in message
k...
Would you resist using a blowtorch if you were using solder joints?

This is what PTFE is for,

********!!

very rarely can a watertight seal be achieved without it....they just
don't tighten up properly.

A compression fitting is DESIGNED to give a watertight (and gas tight
- with the correct fiiting) with only itself and the olive. PTFE
tape is not a '"must include" extra for every fitting. If done
correctly a compression fitting WILL be leak free without PTFE.

HTH

John

I have to agree with him Phillip PTFE was primarily a temporary fix
solution in the early days of it appearing on the market until a
satisfactory job was known to be good.

As the man said...
"If done correctly a compression fitting WILL be leak free without PTFE".

The _continuing_ problem in this country, is the lack of standardisation. If
only we just had the metric system here, we wouldn't have these problems.
A memory from the motor trade: At one time, there were three different
thread types used on a BSA Bantam m/cycle swinging rear fork spindle: BSF,
UNF fine, and Cycle.

Surely adding the metric system simply adds MORE non-standardisation?
All these BSF, BSW etc predated ISO metric!
Even the metric system has its own variations as well!

--
Frank Erskine
Eschew zrgevp

In article ,
Sylvain VAN DER WALDE wrote:
Another memory: The early Morris Minor cars (split windscreen, sidevalve
engine) had mostly BSF threads, but the gearbox had Metric fine threaded
bolts. I could go on!!!

Nuffield group used oddities for some things - cycle threads with BSF
hexes. Could be those threads are close to metric fine. First really
noticed them as big end bolts on an MG XPAG engine.

--
*Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Sylvain VAN DER WALDE wrote:
Another memory: The early Morris Minor cars (split windscreen, sidevalve
engine) had mostly BSF threads, but the gearbox had Metric fine threaded
bolts. I could go on!!!

Nuffield group used oddities for some things - cycle threads with BSF
hexes. Could be those threads are close to metric fine. First really
noticed them as big end bolts on an MG XPAG engine.

I wasn't completely sure about this. You probably are correct (the clue
being in the English spanner sizes). The threads were certainly very fine.
Now BSF isn't a particularly fine thread, so using a Cycle thread may not
have been such an odd thing to do, after all

Sylvain.


--
*Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Sylvain VAN DER WALDE wrote:
Nuffield group used oddities for some things - cycle threads with BSF
hexes. Could be those threads are close to metric fine. First really
noticed them as big end bolts on an MG XPAG engine.

I wasn't completely sure about this. You probably are correct (the clue
being in the English spanner sizes). The threads were certainly very
fine. Now BSF isn't a particularly fine thread, so using a Cycle thread
may not have been such an odd thing to do, after all

The story I was told by my father was that Morris originally made cycles.
And at that time many such engineering shops made bolts and nuts in house.
When they started making cars, they carried on with the same threads to
avoid the capital cost of buying all new stocks and dies, etc. But changed
the hex to BSF sizes so the local blacksmith had tools that fitted.

Could all be an urban myth, though. But he did serve an engineering
apprenticeship at about the time Morris started making cars.

--


Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Phil L wrote:
G.W. Walker wrote:
Right now this is a bit of rhetorical question, but...

...how do you stop compression fittings from leaking? I
plumbed in some new stuff at the weekend, but lots of the
joints are now leaking. I resisted using PTFE tape on
every single joint, but is that the answer? PTFE wrapped
around every olive..?

This is what PTFE is for, very rarely can a watertight seal be achieved
[on compression joints]
without it....they just don't tighten up properly.

That's absolute rubbish.

I only have ptfe on taper or parallel thread fittings. None at all on
compression, it just isn't required.

Cheers

Paul.