Hi All

My daughter got a parking ticket from the local council and wrote to
complain that she had bought a ticket, but it had obviously fallen off the
dashboard.

They wrote back to her basically saying bugger off.

She went on holiday, so wasn't able to reply.

Thing is, the car was in the wife's name. Next thing we get is a Notice to
Owner/Keeper saying that unless the wife pays, the fine will double to £90
and although she wasn't driving at the time, she is still legally liable.

So, presumably if I lend you my shotgun and you kill someone, I'm liable?
Not the best example I know. How about if I lent you a chainsaw and you cut
your neighbours head off, then did a runner. I would be liable for murder?

What is going on here?

Dave

"David Lang" wrote in message
.uk...
Hi All

My daughter got a parking ticket from the local council and wrote to
complain that she had bought a ticket, but it had obviously fallen off the
dashboard.

They wrote back to her basically saying bugger off.

She went on holiday, so wasn't able to reply.

Thing is, the car was in the wife's name. Next thing we get is a Notice
to Owner/Keeper saying that unless the wife pays, the fine will double to
£90 and although she wasn't driving at the time, she is still legally
liable.

So, presumably if I lend you my shotgun and you kill someone, I'm liable?
Not the best example I know. How about if I lent you a chainsaw and you
cut your neighbours head off, then did a runner. I would be liable for
murder?

What is going on here?

Dave

Just produce the ticket to the authorities

Best check in alt.uk.law

--
Regards

SantaUK
"David Lang" wrote in message
.uk...
Hi All

My daughter got a parking ticket from the local council and wrote to
complain that she had bought a ticket, but it had obviously fallen off the
dashboard.

They wrote back to her basically saying bugger off.

She went on holiday, so wasn't able to reply.

Thing is, the car was in the wife's name. Next thing we get is a Notice
to Owner/Keeper saying that unless the wife pays, the fine will double to
£90 and although she wasn't driving at the time, she is still legally
liable.

So, presumably if I lend you my shotgun and you kill someone, I'm liable?
Not the best example I know. How about if I lent you a chainsaw and you
cut your neighbours head off, then did a runner. I would be liable for
murder?

What is going on here?

Dave

And if you haven't seen them already - the baliff programs that keep
appearing every week will tell you that you'd be best paying a £45 fine
before it escalates to atleast 10x its value!!

--
Regards

SantaUK
"David Lang" wrote in message
.uk...
Hi All

My daughter got a parking ticket from the local council and wrote to
complain that she had bought a ticket, but it had obviously fallen off the
dashboard.

They wrote back to her basically saying bugger off.

She went on holiday, so wasn't able to reply.

Thing is, the car was in the wife's name. Next thing we get is a Notice
to Owner/Keeper saying that unless the wife pays, the fine will double to
£90 and although she wasn't driving at the time, she is still legally
liable.

So, presumably if I lend you my shotgun and you kill someone, I'm liable?
Not the best example I know. How about if I lent you a chainsaw and you
cut your neighbours head off, then did a runner. I would be liable for
murder?

What is going on here?

Dave

My daughter got a parking ticket from the local council and wrote to
complain that she had bought a ticket, but it had obviously fallen off the
dashboard.
They wrote back to her basically saying bugger off.

uk.legal might be a good place for this one :-}

--
Please add "[newsgroup]" in the subject of any personal replies via email
--- My new email address has "ngspamtrap" & @btinternet.com in it ;-) ---

"David Lang" wrote in message
.uk...
Hi All

My daughter got a parking ticket from the local council and wrote to
complain that she had bought a ticket, but it had obviously fallen off the
dashboard.

They wrote back to her basically saying bugger off.

The offence is usually not displaying a valid ticket. If it falls off the
dashboard it is not being displayed.

She went on holiday, so wasn't able to reply.

Thing is, the car was in the wife's name. Next thing we get is a Notice
to Owner/Keeper saying that unless the wife pays, the fine will double to
£90 and although she wasn't driving at the time, she is still legally
liable....

Correct. It is always possible to trace the keeper of the vehicle.
Therefore, for offences where it may not be possible to identify the driver,
the keeper is held responsible. The simplest answer is to pay the fine and
hand the bill to your daughter when she returns from holiday. You will save
her £45 that way.

Colin Bignell

On Mon, 23 May 2005 22:25:59 GMT, "David Lang"
babbled like a waterfall and said:

Hi All

My daughter got a parking ticket from the local council and wrote to
complain that she had bought a ticket, but it had obviously fallen off the
dashboard.

They wrote back to her basically saying bugger off.

She went on holiday, so wasn't able to reply.

Thing is, the car was in the wife's name. Next thing we get is a Notice to
Owner/Keeper saying that unless the wife pays, the fine will double to £90
and although she wasn't driving at the time, she is still legally liable.

So, presumably if I lend you my shotgun and you kill someone, I'm liable?
Not the best example I know. How about if I lent you a chainsaw and you cut
your neighbours head off, then did a runner. I would be liable for murder?

What is going on here?

Dave

Wasn't this sort of thing kicked into touch ages ago as one of those
against your human rights things? Punishing someone for anothers
breach?

"Rupert" wrote in message
...

Just produce the ticket to the authorities


The ticket could be from another car and won't be accepted. They'll claim
you didn't display one so you'll never win (imagine a very large, very thick
brick wall ... then have a chat with it!).




a

Won't wash, the offence is failing to display a valid ticket. They
probably have photographs to prove that a valid ticket was not
displayed.

Although in some circumstances people have got around it - if the ticket
was not sticky enough to stay in place, or the ticket was printed on a
photosensitive paper that turns black in sunlight it could be argued that
the ticket was not of merchantable quality.

--
Please add "[newsgroup]" in the subject of any personal replies via email
--- My new email address has "ngspamtrap" & @btinternet.com in it ;-) ---

I had a colleague some years ago, who regularly parked in a pay and display
car park without buying a ticket.
If he got a ticket, he would approach someone leaving and beg a valid ticket
for the period.
He would then write to the authority enclosing the ticket, claiming that it
had fallen from the screen, and get off the fine!
Not sure how many times or car parks, but it suggests that, if the ticket is
available, it may be worth a try!

Phil

TheScullster wrote:
I had a colleague some years ago, who regularly parked in a pay and
display car park without buying a ticket. If he got a ticket, he would
approach someone leaving and beg a valid ticket for the period. He would
then write to the authority enclosing the ticket, claiming that it had
fallen from the screen, and get off the fine! Not sure how many times or
car parks, but it suggests that, if the ticket is available, it may be
worth a try!


And therein lies the reaason why even genuine cases get short shrift from
councils these days.

Rob

"EricP" wrote in message
...
snip

Wasn't this sort of thing kicked into touch ages ago as one of those
against your human rights things? Punishing someone for anothers
breach?


No it wasn't, ask yourself who get the speeding ticket from a camera,
the registered KEEPER - Doh....

"David Lang" wrote in message
.uk...
Hi All

My daughter got a parking ticket from the local council and wrote to
complain that she had bought a ticket, but it had obviously fallen
off the
dashboard.

They wrote back to her basically saying bugger off.

She went on holiday, so wasn't able to reply.

Thing is, the car was in the wife's name. Next thing we get is a
Notice to
Owner/Keeper saying that unless the wife pays, the fine will double
to £90
and although she wasn't driving at the time, she is still legally
liable.

So, presumably if I lend you my shotgun and you kill someone, I'm
liable?
Not the best example I know. How about if I lent you a chainsaw and
you cut
your neighbours head off, then did a runner. I would be liable for
murder?

What is going on here?


She didn't DISPLAY the ticket, did she, just pay up.

Long gone are the days when you had to do something wrong to get punished.

David Lang wrote:

Hi All

My daughter got a parking ticket from the local council and wrote to
complain that she had bought a ticket, but it had obviously fallen off the
dashboard.


Look carefull at waht the summons says.

I had a similart thig in london.
The first summons said 'failure to pay'

I pointed out that I had paid.
The second said 'failure to display'

I pointed out that I had displayed.

The third one said 'failure to display correctly'

I got off on appeal (we were up to 180 quid by this time, but I was
furious) because 'the subsequent offence was not that as on the original
parking ticket'

I.e. they are not allowed to change the offence if the first one doesn't
work.

SO if you have a ticket that says 'failure to pay' rather than 'failure
to display' you are home and dry.


They wrote back to her basically saying bugger off.

They do. The wardens have their quotas to fill. I hope you have
photocopied the ticket.


She went on holiday, so wasn't able to reply.

Thing is, the car was in the wife's name. Next thing we get is a Notice to
Owner/Keeper saying that unless the wife pays, the fine will double to £90
and although she wasn't driving at the time, she is still legally liable.


This is in fact true, a shameless fact that my unscruplous relative who
shall remain nbameless used to his advatnage when he returned his long
term contract hire car complete with about 50 parking tickets and
congestion charge fines unpaid. They are still arguing that one.

The whole thing is designed so they can legally bully anyone into giving
them money.


So, presumably if I lend you my shotgun and you kill someone, I'm liable?

yes..i think in some weays you are.. actually. Aiding and
abetting...accessory before the fact..?

Not the best example I know. How about if I lent you a chainsaw and you cut
your neighbours head off, then did a runner. I would be liable for murder?

What is going on here?


Stealth taxes and jobs for the boys.

Dave

"Simon" wrote in message
...


Long gone are the days when you had to do something wrong to get
punished.


Long gone are the days when you needed at least half a clue to post to
Usenet....

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
.. .
Rupert wrote:

My daughter got a parking ticket from the local council and wrote to
complain that she had bought a ticket, but it had obviously fallen off
the
dashboard.
[snip]

Just produce the ticket to the authorities

Won't wash, the offence is failing to display a valid ticket. They
probably have photographs to prove that a valid ticket was not
displayed.

Pay the fine, tell the daughter to pay you, and tell her to be more
careful in future.

Sensible advice.

Mary

"TheScullster" wrote in message
...
I had a colleague some years ago, who regularly parked in a pay and display
car park without buying a ticket.
If he got a ticket, he would approach someone leaving and beg a valid
ticket for the period.
He would then write to the authority enclosing the ticket, claiming that
it had fallen from the screen, and get off the fine!
Not sure how many times or car parks, but it suggests that, if the ticket
is available, it may be worth a try!

Does he pay for his petrol? Did he pay for the car? Does he pay for his
clothes, his food ... if he uses a service knowing that there's a charge he
should pay.

Mary

Phil

On Tue, 24 May 2005 07:48:09 UTC, "TheScullster"
wrote:

I had a colleague some years ago, who regularly parked in a pay and display
car park without buying a ticket.
If he got a ticket, he would approach someone leaving and beg a valid ticket
for the period.
He would then write to the authority enclosing the ticket, claiming that it
had fallen from the screen, and get off the fine!
Not sure how many times or car parks, but it suggests that, if the ticket is
available, it may be worth a try!

Round here, you have to put the numeric part of the reg no onto the
ticket by pushing buttons on the machine.

Mind, that worked a lot better a few years ago..there are lots of '53'
cars around!

--
Bob Eager
begin a new life...take up Extreme Ironing!

Long gone are the days when you needed at least half a clue to post to
Usenet....

No, you use google instead !!!!

Dave

In article ,
David Lang wrote:
My daughter got a parking ticket from the local council and wrote to
complain that she had bought a ticket, but it had obviously fallen off
the dashboard.

They wrote back to her basically saying bugger off.

She went on holiday, so wasn't able to reply.

Thing is, the car was in the wife's name. Next thing we get is a Notice
to Owner/Keeper saying that unless the wife pays, the fine will double
to £90 and although she wasn't driving at the time, she is still
legally liable.

So, presumably if I lend you my shotgun and you kill someone, I'm
liable? Not the best example I know. How about if I lent you a
chainsaw and you cut your neighbours head off, then did a runner. I
would be liable for murder?

What is going on here?

You've obviously put the car in the name of not the main user to get
cheaper insurance, etc. Then concoct a plausible story - to you - about
tickets falling off the dashboard - blah blah. But if she'd kept that paid
for ticket - as you would, after seeing the penalty notice on the
windscreen, and sent it off with a covering letter you'd get off with it.
Because then it becomes failure to display a valid parking permit. So a
whole new ball game. Not fantasy.

--
*Red meat is not bad for you. Fuzzy green meat is bad for you.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Simon wrote:
Long gone are the days when you had to do something wrong to get
punished.

And long gone are the days when a 'criminal' said 'you've got me banged to
rights, guv'

'They' invent all sorts of reasons why they didn't do it - but those
dealing with that side of it have heard them all many, many, times before.

--
*Taxation WITH representation ain't much fun, either.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

nightjar nightjar@ wrote:
My daughter got a parking ticket from the local council and wrote to
complain that she had bought a ticket, but it had obviously fallen off the
dashboard.
They wrote back to her basically saying bugger off.
The offence is usually not displaying a valid ticket. If it falls off the
dashboard it is not being displayed.

Perhaps the parking fine should be paid, and then legal action commenced
against the council to recover the cost as the parking ticket issued by
the machine was obviously insufficiently self-adhesive (I assume it's
the sort where the ticket somes with a self-adhesive backing sticker)
and therefore not of satisfactory quality under relevant consumer
protection legislation?

Owain

Hi Dave
But if she'd kept that paid
for ticket - as you would, after seeing the penalty notice on the
windscreen, and sent it off with a covering letter you'd get off with it.

She did!

Dave

"David Lang" wrote in message
. uk...
Hi Dave
But if she'd kept that paid
for ticket - as you would, after seeing the penalty notice on the
windscreen, and sent it off with a covering letter you'd get off with it.

She did!

Dave

And she will still get fined and won't get off at the appeal either.
The reason for this is it would be so easy for people who get a penalty
notice to get a 'valid' ticket for that time ie wait for someone else to
return to there car and then get there old ticket.

Machines are now starting to appear where you have to type in your licence
plate when you get the ticket , your number is then printed on the ticket,
which is then displayed as per normal.

This has the advantage that if your ticket 'falls on the floor' and you get
a penalty you can appeal and have a very good chance that you will get off,
it also stops the practice of reusing other peoples tickets which may just
make the local council a few more quid !!

"Owain" wrote in message
. ..
snip

Perhaps the parking fine should be paid, and then legal action
commenced
against the council to recover the cost as the parking ticket issued
by
the machine was obviously insufficiently self-adhesive (I assume
it's
the sort where the ticket somes with a self-adhesive backing
sticker)
and therefore not of satisfactory quality under relevant consumer
protection legislation?


Or perhaps the said window just needs a clean.....

On Wed, 25 May 2005 14:45:06 UTC, "Graeme" wrote:

Machines are now starting to appear where you have to type in your licence
plate when you get the ticket , your number is then printed on the ticket,
which is then displayed as per normal.

But due to the cost of 'full' keypads, they usually only want the
numeric part. This was fine until a few years ago, but a whole six
months' worth of new cars now have the same number...

it also stops the practice of reusing other peoples tickets which may just
make the local council a few more quid !!

I make a point of looking for someone who can use my part used
tickets...

"Owain" wrote in message
. ..
nightjar nightjar@ wrote:
My daughter got a parking ticket from the local council and wrote to
complain that she had bought a ticket, but it had obviously fallen off
the dashboard.
They wrote back to her basically saying bugger off.
The offence is usually not displaying a valid ticket. If it falls off the
dashboard it is not being displayed.

Perhaps the parking fine should be paid, and then legal action commenced
against the council to recover the cost as the parking ticket issued by
the machine was obviously insufficiently self-adhesive (I assume it's the
sort where the ticket somes with a self-adhesive backing sticker) ...

The fact that the OP says it fell off the dashboard suggests that either it
was not adhesive, or, if it was, that was not the way it was used.

Colin Bignell

[big snip]

Watching a traffic warden walk along a pavement checking for parking
tickets in car windscreens, I noted that the person paused for a few
seconds
per car and then walk on.

I then wondered what would the overall effect be if the warden took
much
longer per car - productivity would go down?

So, buy one of those sun screen concertina things (made of cardboard or
similar) and stick your parking sticker there on day one. Stick it
upside
down as well. Then on day two, put that ticket beside the other one.
By the end of a couple of months, and by random placement, you will
have a
windscreen of tickets and a much more time-consuming job for the
checker.

You are not breaking the law, since you are displaying a valid ticket.
It
doesn't instruct you not to remove other tickets...

Any local authority systems to thwart this, anyone?

Mungo :-)

wrote in message
ups.com...
So, buy one of those sun screen concertina things (made of cardboard or
similar) and stick your parking sticker there on day one. Stick it
upside
down as well. Then on day two, put that ticket beside the other one.
By the end of a couple of months, and by random placement, you will
have a
windscreen of tickets and a much more time-consuming job for the
checker.

You are not breaking the law, since you are displaying a valid ticket.
It
doesn't instruct you not to remove other tickets...

Any local authority systems to thwart this, anyone?

Actually, I'm pretty sure you are .. with the first bit at least. I think
I've seen a program on TV state that they can fine you if the ticket is not
the correct way up. Rings a bell as it was done un-intentionally and the
person receiving the fine, was obviously quite upset.

But then it was quite clear from the program that parking wardens are one of
the lowest form of vermin on the planet and should all have been drowned at
birth. Sad, sad losers with no sense of common respect or decency (the list
of shocking - and often illegal - actions carried out by them made me sick
to the stomach).

One day this idiotic government will realise that privatising any industry
that serves the public will mean they value profit over *anything* else.
There was a day when police could do a fair job with things like this and
rail companies didn't try to kill us off by neglecting safety.

Now where's a handy place to store this milk box till next time ...




a

"al" wrote in message
k...
wrote in message
ups.com...
So, buy one of those sun screen concertina things (made of
cardboard or
similar) and stick your parking sticker there on day one. Stick it
upside
down as well. Then on day two, put that ticket beside the other
one.
By the end of a couple of months, and by random placement, you
will
have a
windscreen of tickets and a much more time-consuming job for the
checker.

You are not breaking the law, since you are displaying a valid
ticket.
It
doesn't instruct you not to remove other tickets...

Any local authority systems to thwart this, anyone?

Actually, I'm pretty sure you are .. with the first bit at least. I
think
I've seen a program on TV state that they can fine you if the ticket
is not
the correct way up. Rings a bell as it was done un-intentionally
and the
person receiving the fine, was obviously quite upset.

Yes, and seeing that most tickets are mean to be affixed to the
*screen* (or other appropriate vehicle glass) they could probably also
fine the driver on incorrect display.


But then it was quite clear from the program that parking wardens
are one of
the lowest form of vermin on the planet

But illegal, selfish, drivers who expect to park where, when and how
they like, not to mention at no cost to themselves, are the lowest...

I object to having to enter the numeric part of my reg, if minimum time is
an hour and i've only been 5 mins why shouldn't someone else use the space
that i've paid for ?
+ minimum charge is now 90p and the machine does not give change !

Regards Jeff

"al" wrote in message
k...

But then it was quite clear from the program that parking wardens are one
of the lowest form of vermin on the planet and should all have been
drowned at birth. Sad, sad losers with no sense of common respect or
decency (the list of shocking - and often illegal - actions carried out by
them made me sick to the stomach).

Takes one to know one.

Mary

In article , Al
wrote:
One day this idiotic government will realise that privatising any
industry that serves the public will mean they value profit over
*anything* else.

Why blame *this* idiotic government. Privatising parking enforcement
(and hospital cleaning, school dinners etc) is true blue stuff.
We've got a Conservative council and wardens who ticket any and
everything (except illegally parked cars outside schools at 3.30
apparently - too much grief from parents). Park in the Tesco car
park Teddington at 6.25p.m. on a Saturday and you'll find out how
keen they are.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm
[Latest version QSEDBUK 1.10 released 4 April 2005]

In article ,
Tony Bryer wrote:

Why blame *this* idiotic government. Privatising parking
enforcement (and hospital cleaning, school dinners etc) is true
blue stuff. We've got a Conservative council and wardens who
ticket any and everything (except illegally parked cars outside
schools at 3.30 apparently - too much grief from parents). Park
in the Tesco car park Teddington at 6.25p.m. on a Saturday and
you'll find out how keen they are.

There's a car illegally parked every day, in our
local Somerfield's. It never gets booked. That's
because it belongs to one of the jobsworth private
parking attendants who now infests our town.

AFAIR it was in Bristol that the jobsworths were doing
the same trick, parking anywhere they liked, safe
because of the little identity slips on the dashboard.
Except that it got onto tv and the police went through
them like a dose of salts.

--
Tony Williams.

Hi Jeff
+ minimum charge is now 90p and the machine does not give change !

Same around here, machine unable to issue change despite this being the year
2005 and every other machine on the planet being able to give it.

And have you noticed that if you over pay you don't get any extra time?

Of course, its not a fund raising exercise, it's done for some other
reason.......

Dave

In article , David Lang
wrote:
+ minimum charge is now 90p and the machine does not give change !

Same around here, machine unable to issue change despite this being
the year 2005 and every other machine on the planet being able to
give it.

Why does they have to have a minimum charge apart from a desire to
make an extra quick buck? Why not 10p for each (say) 10 minutes, pay
for what you want.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm
[Latest version QSEDBUK 1.10 released 4 April 2005]

"Jeff" wrote in message
.. .
I object to having to enter the numeric part of my reg, if minimum
time is
an hour and i've only been 5 mins why shouldn't someone else use the
space
that i've paid for ?

Because the cortract is with you and not 9 or 10 others as well....

+ minimum charge is now 90p and the machine does not give change !


Well, put the correct money in!

"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
In article , David
Lang
wrote:
+ minimum charge is now 90p and the machine does not give change
!

Same around here, machine unable to issue change despite this
being
the year 2005 and every other machine on the planet being able to
give it.

Why does they have to have a minimum charge apart from a desire to
make an extra quick buck? Why not 10p for each (say) 10 minutes, pay
for what you want.


Because if it worked like that the car park would need to be staffed
full time, the warden would have to check on new arrivals every 7
minutes, this would treble the cost of parking way above the minimum
charge - even for just 10 minutes I suspect...

"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
Why blame *this* idiotic government. Privatising parking enforcement
(and hospital cleaning, school dinners etc) is true blue stuff.
We've got a Conservative council and wardens who ticket any and
everything (except illegally parked cars outside schools at 3.30
apparently - too much grief from parents). Park in the Tesco car
park Teddington at 6.25p.m. on a Saturday and you'll find out how
keen they are.

Fair enough. Most governments are pretty good at being as needlessly inept
as possible!




a