"Peter Parry" wrote in message
...

Indeed, as a suspicious character. A crime happens near your home -
a child vanishes. You have a record of having been stopped a number
of times so the police pop around for a chat. The neighbours see a
marked car outside your door - does you no harm does it?

There's often a police car outside our house. I don't think it's done us any
harm. The neighbours still think we're nutters but not criminals - not that
we give a tinker's what they think about us. While they're talking about us
they're leaving someone else alone :-) Any police record we have might well
have been stored but it doesn't affect us.

There is nowhere else in the world where such a draconian system as
being proposed for the UK is in use or even contemplated.

Evidence?

Mary

Mary Fisher wrote:

"Kieran Mansley" wrote in message

My point is that there are many other things that we could spend that
money on that would be much more likely to result in a benefit. Why risk
such a large amount of money on something when there are so many other
better uses for the cash?


Such as?

We - the population - won't feel it.

You are joking I take it...?

They are talking 3bn now - that is before they start the most ambitious
IT project the govt has ever tackled. They have already sowed the seeds
of its failure because the can not define what its requirements are, and
more importantly, even establish what it is intended to achieve.

Given their track record on complex IT systems we can say with a good
level of confidece that it a) won't work to start with, b) will cost
several times more than projected to get it to a stage where it limps along.

then the risk might be worth it, but there is no potential very large
reward that I'm aware of, so on balance I don't think the risk is worth
it.


We're not all money minded ...

Does that mean you are prepared to pay *any* price for something you want?

You also say that as if there is some higher moral or ethical reason for
needing an id database. What is it?

--
Cheers,

John.

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Mary Fisher wrote:

So do a lot of people. They'll still charge you for it though.


For the ID card? Yes I know. As I indicated, I'm not happy about that. But
it's not a sensible unhappiness, if we weren't charged directly we'd pay in
tax so what's the difference?

It is probably a testament to the success of the government spin that
everyone still talks about ID "cards", when any "card" is almost an
irrelevant part of the whole project. It is just a nice bit of diversion
away from the real issue of the national id register.

Yes there will be a "card" you can/must have (projected cost 40 to 80
quid at the moment - needs renewing every 5 to 10 years), but you will
still need to have all the other forms of ID you currently have as well.
What is more, some of those will also gain linkage to the ID database
and hence need to be paid for at a similar premium. So your passport and
drivers license will also cost extra, and need to be renewed more
frequently. However this is not an either or situation - yes you will
need to pay for the tangible aspects of the system with your hard cash,
but you will also pay for the "back end" infrastructure out of your
taxes as well.

--
Cheers,

John.

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"Sue Begg" wrote in message
...
In message , Mary Fisher
writes

We live in Yorkshire Ripper country, we knew some of the victims and
worked
at the place where the first was found. But we weren't questioned.

However, we were often stopped for road checks - and didn't mind at all.
We
were pleasedthat the police were being vigilant.

We were stopped on one occasion at the slip road to the M62 when the
ripper hunt was on - had to explain to the police that we were taking the
baby for a drive on the motorway in order to get her to sleep :-)) They
did believe us I think it was so feeble an excuse it had to be real

Well, many policemen are parents and do understand about babies and sleep. I
don't think they'd regard it as a feeble excuse.

Once, when stopped, I was asked if I were in the police because I was
wearing one of their blue shirts. I'd bought it at a charity shop, it didn't
take much convincing that a little fat woman wasn't really suitable material
for the West Yorkshire Constabulary.

Mary

MM wrote:

Could I receive Sky through my helmet? I have an old one with a spike
on top.

Just a little too much personal information there thanks.... ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

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"John Rumm" wrote in message
...

My point is that there are many other things that we could spend that
money on that would be much more likely to result in a benefit. Why risk
such a large amount of money on something when there are so many other
better uses for the cash?


Such as?

We - the population - won't feel it.

You are joking I take it...?

No, I really don't think that you'll notice the cost over the rest of your
life - or even over a few weeks. Most people seem happy to pay £80 for a
night's entertainment - it's not difficult.


We're not all money minded ...

Does that mean you are prepared to pay *any* price for something you want?

I only want something I need and then, yes, I'm prepared to pay any price.

You also say that as if there is some higher moral or ethical reason for
needing an id database. What is it?

That's your understanding, it wasn't my intent.

Look, it's going to happen at some time, it might not be in our lifetimes.
It's the way the whole world is going, I believe, whether we like it or not.
There's no point in tilting at windmills..

Mary

--
Cheers,

John.

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In message , Mary
Fisher writes

"Sue Begg" wrote in message
...
In message , Mary Fisher
writes

We live in Yorkshire Ripper country, we knew some of the victims and
worked
at the place where the first was found. But we weren't questioned.

However, we were often stopped for road checks - and didn't mind at all.
We
were pleasedthat the police were being vigilant.

We were stopped on one occasion at the slip road to the M62 when the
ripper hunt was on - had to explain to the police that we were taking the
baby for a drive on the motorway in order to get her to sleep :-)) They
did believe us I think it was so feeble an excuse it had to be real

Well, many policemen are parents and do understand about babies and sleep. I
don't think they'd regard it as a feeble excuse.

Once, when stopped, I was asked if I were in the police because I was
wearing one of their blue shirts. I'd bought it at a charity shop, it didn't
take much convincing that a little fat woman wasn't really suitable material
for the West Yorkshire Constabulary.

Mary


We used to have lots of those shirts because my father in law was in the
fire brigade there and they were issued with new shirts faster than he
could wear them out.
Not much use to me because although I am fat I was nowhere near his 20
stone 6ft frame. But they made great painting overalls :-)
--
Sue Begg
Remove my clothes to reply

Do not mess in the affairs of dragons - for
you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , Doctor Evil
writes

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , Peter Parry
writes

so what's the objections?.,

You don't mind being forced to carry an RFID card which can track
where you go even though it never comes out of your pocket? You
don't mind the police tracking you because you are going out with a
policemans daughter and the father doesn't think much of it? You
don't mind your local politician asking for an eye to be kept on you
because you criticised (or just failed to support) some pet project
of theirs? You don't mind a quite word being dropped to your
employer that "surveillance evidence" puts you in some pretty
disreputable places and maybe you shouldn't be working there any
more? (Never mind whether the evidence exists - the employer knows it
may - and if they are doing government work...?). If you are a
teacher you don't mind a policeman coming around (told you not to go
out with his daughter didn't I) and asking the headmaster why you
were tracked staying in Mothercare for 3 hours each Saturday and
sitting in a playground all Sunday? It won't affect you at all will
it, after all, what have you got to hide?

Nicely put Peter

Maxie, I think the likes of these on this ng should be tracked for their
own
good.

Do **** off dIMM

...Maxie's had nice good swear
...the sort of language we don't like to hear.
...a courteous man? Maxie ain't
...he causes old ladies to drop and faint

...walk around Watford if you dare
...you will hear expletives through the air
...it is Maxie shouting out very loud
...the sort of language of which he's proud
...with effs and C's and B's and T's
...directing words at old ladies

...the Plod viewed Maxie so adverse
...as he shouted out a curse
...they took this foul mouthed fatty man
...and slapped him right inside the can

...through the keyhole Maxie directed
...foul mouthed words towards the detective
...the Plod had enough of this fat slob
...and rammed a gag inside his gob


_________________________________________
Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server
More than 120,000 groups
Unlimited download
http://www.usenetzone.com to open account

Mary Fisher wrote:


There may be financial benefits. You don't know until it's tried.

Mary


There may, but the proposed scheme is a massive centralisation. History
suggests that massive centralised databases will be compromised. If
this ones does wouldn't indentity froud become easy?

Some of the alternative proposals were more distributed. In one case
the database containing only an index number and an authentication
result. The authentication result only being calculable from the card
data and a biometric.

Of course there are even beter systems than that if you use a smart card.

Lets do it properly, not in a rush and get it wrong. That means public
education, scrutinisation and buy in.

Mike

Mary Fisher wrote:

You are joking I take it...?


No, I really don't think that you'll notice the cost over the rest of your
life - or even over a few weeks. Most people seem happy to pay ï½£80 for a
night's entertainment - it's not difficult.

The 80 pound is not so much the issue (although in reality it will work
out at bout 30 pounds per year I would guess (id card, passport, drivers
license at 300 quid for the lot every 10 years say)), but the say 10bn
it costs to implement will represent the equivalent of a few p on the
basic rate of tax. Whether it actually turns into a few p on the basic
rate of tax, or more likely, gets hidden in some stealth tax is another
matter. However I fully expect I will notice!

I only want something I need and then, yes, I'm prepared to pay any price.

There is an important question regarding value here though. If you need
a bag of potatoes, and have the choice of two vendors offering product
of equal quality and one costs ten times the price of the other, I would
expect (all other factors being equal) you would opt for the cheaper one.

So the same logic needs to apply to ID databases. Firstly what are
your[1] needs? There may be many solutions that can meet that need; so
you need to ask:

1) does an ID database and card meet the need
2) are there ways of meeting the need equally well, that would cost
significantly less.

[1] for broader definitions of "your" to include needs of society in
general.

Look, it's going to happen at some time, it might not be in our lifetimes.
It's the way the whole world is going, I believe, whether we like it or not.
There's no point in tilting at windmills..

I am not aware of any other country that is contemplating such an
ambitious scheme as the UK proposals at the moment. It would also seem
sensible that even if you anticipate that some system of ID is
inevitable, that we delay the process enough to let someone else do the
expensive and error prone groundwork first to establish what works and
what does not.

--
Cheers,

John.

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On Fri, 20 May 2005 12:23:15 +0100, Mary Fisher wrote:


"Kieran Mansley" wrote in message


My point is that there are many other things that we could spend that
money on that would be much more likely to result in a benefit. Why
risk such a large amount of money on something when there are so many
other better uses for the cash?

Such as?

We - the population - won't feel it.

3bn could make a huge difference to many people's lives, but instead you'd
rather waste it on ID cards? Can you really not think of a single public
organisation, charity, or government department that couldn't make better
use of the cash? Pensions? Schools? NHS? Power generation? Transport?
Poverty? All of these, we are constantly told, are chronically under
funded.

If you had 3bn at your disposal to be spent for the public good, I very
much doubt you'd go out and buy the country a national ID card scheme:
you'd be much more likely to do something that would actually benefit the
world in some way.

If there were a potential very large reward,

For what?

To the world for us having ID cards, whether financial or otherwise.

then the risk might be worth it, but there is no potential very large
reward that I'm aware of, so on balance I don't think the risk is worth
it.

We're not all money minded ...

Of course not, but none of us want to see it wasted either, especially
when such a lot of it is at stake, and when there are so many other better
uses for that money.

Kieran

mike wrote:

Lets do it properly, not in a rush and get it wrong. That means public
education, scrutinisation and buy in.

Well said that man! If you must do it at all, then that has to be a
better way.


--
Cheers,

John.

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MM wrote:
It's getting so that I am loathe to type the words "child rape in
Essex" into Google for fear that some monitoring busybody somewhere
might immediately jump to attention.

You probably shouldn't type them into a newsgroup posting either :-)

Owain

bomb explosive terrorism gleneagles al quaida detonator missile nuclear
G8 torpedo summit

BigWallop wrote:
"Brian G" wrote in message
...
BigWallop wrote:
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
.. .
In article ,
raden writes:

For those who have switched off from VE day Warplanes ...

http://www.pledgebank.com/no2id

I read the pledge the first couple of times as
"I will refuse to register for an ID card but only if 3,000,000
people will sign up [for an ID card]."

Also, I think there might be a problem scaling the page to
3,000,000 signatories...

Andrew Gabriel


I'm all for Photo and Finger Print ID Cards. It should be made
mandatory to carried your ID at all times, and detention or a spot
fine imposed if you're found without one.

What happens if you forget your wallet? Or just feel like wandering
around the beach on a nice hot hot day in just your bathers (nowhere
to slip your ID into) , and a rather officious PC plod decides to
ask for your ID and won't allow you to go beck to where your clothes
are? It will happen, and according to your statement, you're going
to spend a little time in a cell and probably end up with a criminal
record just for 'forgetting'.

Won't happen? Can't happen, you bet it will!


Stop taking these points to the extreme. Of course there will be
times when carrying a card are impossible, but don't keep saying "it
will come to the point that" all the time. As I did state, if you
can't produce a valid card within a certain time frame, like you have
to for documents for a vehicle now, then you have commited an
offence. No cop is going to stop you from going and getting your
card from a few metres away, or going to the house up the road for
it. You're just being silly now.

Sorry BW, but I honestly believe that this is just the thin end of the
wedge. Let's take a step backwards to 'recent' introductions by the
previous Home Secretary:

1 Arrest and imprisonment of non-British nationals without charge or
trial.

2 When eventually the courts got their hands on the cases and the Home
Secretary was told to charge or release these people - what did he do?
Push legislation to say that ALL people within these fair Islands could be
held under 'House Arrest and tagged' again without charge - now that is NOT
an extreme statement but fact and where will it all end -- a police state I
believe?

Just think of the implications if someone is arrested after breaking
in to a house. If they don't have an ID card on them, then it is
automatically an arrestible offence, and if they can't produce a
qualified ID card within a certain time frame, then another offence
is added to the original crime. If they produce a forged ID, then
the offence is automatically doubled or tripled.

What are the chances of someone being detected? My wife and I were
asleep when the b*****ds did us over - nobody detected them or even
caught 'em.


That happens, and is an extremely harrowing experience for the
victims, but if the thugs had been caught, and couldn't positively
identify themselves, then their sentence would have been
automatically set to a whole lot longer time in a jail. But this
crime still hasn't been solved, and the culprits still haven't been
brought to justice, but it isn't the only crime that still sits
unsolved.

Ah! But would they have had a higher chance of being caught if the were
carrying ID cards? I doubt it.

What a different society we'd all see, I think.

Yes, an Orwellian society where it is possible that a little
jumped-up prat can sit at a computer terminal and wipe all your
records clean - leaving you out on a limb trying to prove who you
are.


Bull****!!! In the extreme again. I also stated that picture and
finger print cards are the only sure way of complete identification.
How is wiping records of you going to stop your card from proving who
you really are. Your picture and finger print would be on it.

Not really extreme is it if an ID card is to be the ONLY official means of
identity. At the moment, records are held on a number of 'scattered
databases' and it is possible that if they are 'wiped' off one, another
could prove your identity.

Imagine a FUTURE scenario whereby all records are held on a one and only
official central database, then what is the difficulty in changing your
photo and fingerprints on this central record. These changes can be done
now with passports, driving licences etc by the criminal fraternity - it
will be even easier to do so by the corrupt official in control of the
keyboard - irrespective of the bleatings that this will be impossible
security is paramount. It is done on a smaller scale with the credit/debit
cards, as fast as the banks come up with new security devices, the criminal
element is getting around them fairly easily.


Won't happen? Can't happen, you bet it will!

Snipped

Won't happen? Can't happen, you bet it will -- especially if you
are a committed anti-war or or other type of protestor - just read
how they recently tried to swing an ASBO on a lady who has been
legally protesting against an American base in this country. If
they can try and abuse that for their own ends, it will be even
easier with an ID card - no judges to fight against.

Paranoid about this? You bet I am as I know all-to-well how easy
it is for someone to sit at a computer terminal and deliberately
delete details - and once that is done, try proving who you are or
that the details were even there in the first place!

Weird. It all sounds like paranoia to me, I'm afraid. Or you really
have something to hide.

No BW, after fifty six years, I have nothing to hide. I just value the
freedom that I have to do whatever I want within the law and travel wherever
I want without having to prove my identity to all and sundry every few
miles - and yes you could say that it is paranoia because I have seen how
easy it is to take those freedoms away a little piece at a time, without the
masses realising it until its too late - and once you realise this, then
its already too late.

A question for you:

Did the introduction of ID cards stop illegal immigration, terrorist attacks
and crime in those countries who have introduced them?

Brian G

In article , Mary
Fisher wrote:
We live in Yorkshire Ripper country, we knew some of the victims
and worked at the place where the first was found. But we weren't
questioned.

One the evening of the Amelie Delagrange murder on Twickenham Green a
friend and I were working on alterations to the church central
heating: the church overlooks Twickenham Green. We left about
9.00p.m., the murder was AIUI about 9.30. AFAIK no one from the
police made any enquiries as to whether anyone had been on the church
premises that evening and if so when they left. A couple of nights
later, when the Green was still cordoned off and police were
everywhere I dropped something off at the church very late: none of
the police took the slightest notice - I might have expected to have
been stopped and asked whether I had been there on the Thursday
evening. As it happened I was stopped and my details taken in the
roadblock a week later, but that was really by chance, and if I had
had something to hide I would obviously taken care not to be there.
It doesn't inspire total confidence in me, sad to say.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm
[Latest version QSEDBUK 1.10 released 4 April 2005]

Mary Fisher wrote:
"Brian G" wrote in message
...


Brian G

Why don't you use your name? Are you trying to hide something?

Mary,

Brian G is my name, all I have done is withheld the last three letters of my
surname -as is my right at the moment to use any name that I want - how do I
know that YOUR name IS Mary Fisher?

As far as I am concerned, you could be a big hairy bloke using the keyboard
using a feminine name.

Brian G

Gizmo wrote:
"Brian G" wrote in message
...
BTW, if you have a mobile phone, you can be tracked by GPS to within
a few metres - even with it turned off.

Incorrect.
We can track a mobile, but not that accurately ... and it has to be
switched on.

That's not the information that I have read, but I stand to be corrected.
As far as I have found out, even when switched off, a mobile phone emits a
carrier wave that can be detected.

Brian G

MM wrote:
On Thu, 19 May 2005 23:36:19 +0100, "Brian G"
wrote:

Mary Fisher wrote:
"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...
Grumps wrote:
The only people who might object to id cards are those who are
either illegal in this country or those who have something to
hide!!!!

I am neither, and I resent your offensive insinuations. I simply
wish to enjoy my traditional British birthright of privacy,

er-birthright?

The only birthright any person has is that of being breast fed.

er - British?

What do you think your birthright would have been before the union?

without being tracked, tagged and surveilled by an unaccountable
army of public and commercial 'security services'.

Oh come on!

Mary, you are tracked now, you cannot go onto a major motorway or
road without being 'logged' by cameras that can read your number
plate AND take a very good photo of the driver and front seat
passenger. And when they ultimately fit the 'little black box' into
your car under the guise of 'paying for the road you use' then they
will be able to track you on every journey right down to the time
that you got into the car and then got out again.

BTW, if you have a mobile phone, you can be tracked by GPS to within
a few metres - even with it turned off.

I propose to install cctv in your home, grumps. I'm going to wire
it to every room, so that we can watch you night and day. You will
only object to this if you are either illegal in this country or
have something to hide...

It wouldn't bother me. You'd get bored out of you paranoid mind
watching it. Can you imagine the result of your fears? Half the
population watching the other half 24/7?

That is exactly what will happen - you will be constantly looking
over your shoulder to see who is watching or following you.

Who watches the watchers? Not Blunkett.

There will be no need, a climate of fear will have been instilled
and the population will watch each other whilst the likes of
Blunkett and Clark can sleep safely in their beds surrounded by all
the trappings of the pampered.

The pampering has already begun. They've just given themselves a total
of 80 days hols in the summer. Nice job if you can get it!

MM


Ooooooh that was below the belt :-)

Brian G

Mary Fisher wrote:
"Brian G" wrote in message
...

I am neither, and I resent your offensive insinuations. I simply
wish to enjoy my traditional British birthright of privacy,

er-birthright?

The only birthright any person has is that of being breast fed.

er - British?

What do you think your birthright would have been before the union?

without being tracked, tagged and surveilled by an unaccountable
army of public and commercial 'security services'.

Oh come on!

Mary, you are tracked now, you cannot go onto a major motorway or
road without being 'logged' by cameras that can read your number
plate AND take a
very good photo of the driver and front seat passenger.

I know. That's why I always smile :-)

Nice one.

And when they
ultimately fit the 'little black box' into your car under the guise
of 'paying for the road you use' then they will be able to track you
on every journey right down to the time that you got into the car
and then got out again.

We log our own journeys so that's nothing new. Except that we also
log the reason for our journeys.

You do that for your own purposes either to claim expenses or just as a
historical record - it would be a little different if a 'civil servant' is
sat at a desk in the wilds of Scotland watching your every move in your car
and then sending the local plod around later to ask why you went there in
the first place.

BTW, if you have a mobile phone, you can be tracked by GPS to within
a few metres - even with it turned off.

Yes ... and your point is? That could be an advantage.

My point is that if it was wanted, you can be tracked wherever you go to -
and I am sure that there are some places you don't want all-and-sundry
knowing that you have been there?

I propose to install cctv in your home, grumps. I'm going to wire
it to every room, so that we can watch you night and day. You will
only object to this if you are either illegal in this country or
have something to hide...

It wouldn't bother me. You'd get bored out of you paranoid mind
watching it. Can you imagine the result of your fears? Half the
population watching the other half 24/7?

That is exactly what will happen - you will be constantly looking
over your
shoulder to see who is watching or following you.

Not me.

Easy to say that now, but I wonder if the attitude will be the same in a few
years time?

I understand that people compete to be on Big Brother.

True, but wait until the Though Police come to take you to room 101 :-)
Who watches the watchers? Not Blunkett.

There will be no need, a climate of fear will have been instilled
and the population will watch each other whilst the likes of
Blunkett and Clark can
sleep safely in their beds surrounded by all the trappings of the
pampered.

Since, according to you and MM and others - we're already being
watched, why isn't there already a climate of fear among the majority
of people - i.e. those with nothing to be guilty about?


Mary, EVERYBODY has something to be guilty about and it's that guilt,
perceived or fact, that can be worked on to instill a climate of fear out of
all proportion to that guilt without you even realising about it.

Have you ever promised something and then reneged on that promise and felt
guilty after?

Brian G

PJ wrote:
Brian G wrote:
Grumps wrote:

The only people who might object to id cards are those who are
either illegal in this country or those who have something to
hide!!!! In one way or another we carry id cards now! either a
driving licence or credit/debit card so what's the objections?.,
Grumps


carrying driving licences and credit cards with you is NOT mandatory.
If you leave them at home and then stopped and asked for ID you are
NOT commiting an offence by not having them on your person.

Introduce a mandatory scheme, and then if you don't show the card
when asked by ANYONE who has been granted the necessary authority
(not just the local plod, but literally the butcher, the baker and
the candle-stick maker if they have been given the authority to do
so) , you can/will be arrested.

Big brother is coming - a little late, but he is coming!

Brian G

As I understand it, as I walk around my town surveillance cameras can
monitor my movements.

I do not have any store cards but my action within that store could be
followed using the security cameras.

Police have cameras which identify car number plates so my location
and travels can be monitored.

I have to wear a photo security badge at work.

Do I worry about being monitored? My only fear would be that I might
be liable for the eventual psychiatric medical expenses of the person
doing the monitoring.

Nice one PJ - ROTFLMAO

Brian G

John Rumm wrote:
Brian G wrote:

Introduce a mandatory scheme, and then if you don't show the card
when asked by ANYONE who has been granted the necessary authority
(not just the local plod, but literally the butcher, the baker and
the candle-stick maker if they have been given the authority to do
so) , you can/will be arrested.

In some respects you will not be able to leave the card at home - even
if you do...

Remember the real "card" here is a sodding great big database (with
over 200 separate bits of information *so far* (or "just your name and
address" in polotico speak)) linked to your biometric data.

Unless you plan to leave your eyes/fingerprints etc at home you can
still be linked to any one of the matching database records (yes there
really ought to be only one, but then the same is true of NI numbers)



" In some respects you will not be able to leave the card at home - even
if you do..."

That's only initially, it will become compulsory to have to carry the card
and you will be subject to criminal proceedings if you don't.

Brian G

Mary Fisher wrote:
"Brian G" wrote in message
...
Grumps wrote:
The only people who might object to id cards are those who are
either illegal in this country or those who have something to
hide!!!!
In one way or another we carry id cards now! either a driving
licence or credit/debit card so what's the objections?.,
Grumps



carrying driving licences and credit cards with you is NOT
mandatory. If you leave them at home and then stopped and asked for
ID you are NOT commiting an offence by not having them on your
person.

Introduce a mandatory scheme, and then if you don't show the card
when asked
by ANYONE who has been granted the necessary authority (not just the
local plod, but literally the butcher, the baker and the
candle-stick maker if they have been given the authority to do so) ,
you can/will be arrested.

Big brother is coming - a little late, but he is coming!

Well, you'll be in IoM so you'll be OK.

Bye ...

Mary

Brian G

Who's to say that you'll be safe there Mary?

Enjoy yourself.


Brian G

Mary Fisher wrote:
"raden" wrote in message
news

Together with other recent pieces of legislation, we will end up wit
a significant proportion of people just living outside the law

So what's new?

Mary

So, will the introduction of ID cards and the erosion of civil liberties
stop that then? I doubt it - it will probably increase the numbers.

Brian G

BigWallop wrote:
"raden" wrote in message
...
In message ws.net,
":::Jerry::::" writes

"raden" wrote in message
...

For those who have switched off from VE day Warplanes ...

http://www.snipped

If people are serious about objecting to ID cards, rather than
signing up to a meaningless web page, may I suggest that you write
directly to the Home Office (stating valid and reasoned arguments
as to why you consider ID cards unworkable etc.) with a CC to your
own MP.

The above approach can and *has* forced ministers to modify or
rethink policy / Bills before Parliament.

Well at least it got a decent discussion going

With the current administration, one has to ask whether listening
Tony actually gives a toss

geoff


He's an elected politician mate, so he doesn't, and never will, give
a toss. :-)

BW,

WE AGREE on something outside buildings at last LMAO


Brian G

In article ,
"Brian G" writes:
Gizmo wrote:
"Brian G" wrote in message
...
BTW, if you have a mobile phone, you can be tracked by GPS to within
a few metres - even with it turned off.

Incorrect.
We can track a mobile, but not that accurately ... and it has to be
switched on.

That's not the information that I have read, but I stand to be corrected.
As far as I have found out, even when switched off, a mobile phone emits a
carrier wave that can be detected.

If it's on but idle, it can be `tracked' by the timing-advance method, but
this a) has nothing to do with GPS (GPS involves signals sent _from_
satellites, _to_ special-purpose receivers, that's all) and b) can be wildly
inaccurate in less-than-perfect circumstances. GPS isn't a tracking system.

There are websites you can sign up to to look at this stuff. I tried it out
once, and was promptly told that the phone dangling from my belt was actually
in a back street 14 miles distant, and I promptly decided that I wasn't going
to take that on as a service.

If your phone is switched off, it isn't trackable by any means I'm aware of.
--
SAm.

BigWallop wrote:
"Brian G" wrote in message
...
BigWallop wrote:
"raden" wrote in message
...

For those who have switched off from VE day Warplanes ...

http://www.pledgebank.com/no2id


geoff


If everyone of an innocent nature was carrying an ID card, then you
wouldn't be worried at all about being stopped in the street by the
police and asked to show your ID. I think you'd only fly off the
handle and object if you knew you had something to hide, or had just
done something that is against the rules of society, normally called
the moral code.

What about the freedom just to walk about without having to explain
yourself to all and sundry. Remember, it just won't be PC plod who
will have the power to stop you.

With you moral code, what is 'moral' to you is 'immoral' to someone
else, even though what you are doing is perfectly legal!


Moral code is allowing others the freedom to live their lives, as
well as you living yours. No one wants to be frightened just walking
to the shops, and thugs who interfere with that action and bring
about that fear are breaking the moral code.

I'm not talking about people walking around doing their own thing,
where is that illegal? I'm talking about the people who are only
there to make your life a misery. That's illegal, and breaks moral
code.

Unfortunately BW, there are some completely moral actions by others that
makes somebodies life a misery somewhere.

Who in their right minds would think that, in a population of
millions of people, that they, and they alone, would be picked out
and scrutinised by the big brother state? Answers on a post-card
to: :-)

Ask that question to those people who have been stopped and searched
under the 'Suss law' - even though they have been going about their
lawful business. You, like me are old enough to remember that one,
with people being stopped just because they had long hair - I last
saw that law being used a few years ago when driving through a major
city and four plods had just stopped a young lad for no apparent
reason in the 'club-land' area and were searching him.


And did the lad have any outstanding behavoural problems? Was he
known to carry or supply drugs, weapons or things? Yes, I remember
well the SUSS laws, and I still thought they were a good thing. Even
after being stopped and asked who and what I was on numerous
occasions. But an ID card would have help in those situations.
Showing a valid card would have allowed the police to ID me in a
couple of minutes, rather than having to check for my identity over
half the country before letting me go with a "sorry sir" ringing in
my ears.

From what I saw at the time, the lad was merely walking up the street, the
same as a few hundred others were doing at the time. Suss laws cause more
ill-will than the good they do.

Only them with a paranoid disposition are going to think they're
being watched from on high. Time to bring out the aluminium foil
hats folks.

They will watch and you don't need to be of a paranoid disposition
to work that out. BW, you are being 'watched' now. Just jump into
your mode of transport and drive on any major road and you will be
photographed at some stage and your vehicle number checked - could
be a bit awkward if you were 'playin away' in the wrong area of town
and there was a purge on.

Brian G



All I'm hearing here is extreme cases of "what ifs", when all that
will really happen is a card will drop through the doors of the
people who register for them. If you're on the list, then you'll get
in. If you're not, then you'll get hassled.

That is the initial intentention, but after a period, these cards WILL
become compulsory to carry around with with you and when that happens, the
"extreme cases of "what ifs"" will happen - not now, not in ten years time,
but they will happen.

Playing away, as you put it, with a hooker was only made criminal by
the health and safety laws. It was known that men and women who
partook in the pleasures, were nearly a thousand times more likely to
catch sexually transmitted diseases than those who stayed at home, so
to speak. So solicitation was made an offence, and so to was the act
of persuasion (kerb crawling) to a lady of the night. But these laws
were only passed because of the increased health risks to the general
population. Or, put another way, another offence against moral codes.

You missed the point BW, being able to legally track you was the point and
NOT just stop you in the act - not the law on soliciting

If the majority of people lived by allowing others to live, then all
these "silly" and "extreme" laws would be put out to pasture. But,
as long as people out there are only out there to make other peoples
lives a misery, then these "silly" and "extreme" laws will need to be
upheld.

Not the introduction of ID cards, these WILL NOT stop those people doing as
you say - perhaps more effective, old style policing by the local plod on
the beat rather than in cars may do that?

All this is actually being used now in certain places, so why not
extend it to encompass all of us. Maybe then it will be put to good
use.

How? All it does is give the 'illusion of safety/doing something' when all
it really does is cut down the numbers of plods on the beat - the real
criminal catchers. No it used just to 'spy on the masses'.

Brian G

Mary Fisher wrote:
"Brian G" wrote in message
...


If everyone of an innocent nature was carrying an ID card, then you
wouldn't be worried at all about being stopped in the street by the
police and asked to show your ID. I think you'd only fly off the
handle and object if you knew you had something to hide, or had just
done something that is against the rules of society, normally called
the moral code.

What about the freedom just to walk about without having to explain
yourself
to all and sundry. Remember, it just won't be PC plod who will have
the power to stop you.

For some it might be nice to be talked to :-)

Being asked for an ID card is not 'being talked to' is it?

Who in their right minds would think that, in a population of
millions of people, that they, and they alone, would be picked out
and scrutinised by the big brother state? Answers on a post-card
to: :-)

Ask that question to those people who have been stopped and searched
under the 'Suss law' - even though they have been going about their
lawful business. You, like me are old enough to remember that one,
with people being stopped just because they had long hair - I last
saw that law being used a few years ago when driving through a major
city and four plods had just stopped a young lad for no apparent
reason in the 'club-land' area and
were searching him.

"apparent" is the key word.

What I saw, was a perfectly innocent lad being stopped bt four bores coppers
standing on the street - and he was let go rather quickly when a little
fraca started just up the road - as I said, four bored plods!

Only them with a paranoid disposition are going to think they're
being watched from on high. Time to bring out the aluminium foil
hats folks.

They will watch and you don't need to be of a paranoid disposition
to work that out. BW, you are being 'watched' now. Just jump into
your mode of transport and drive on any major road and you will be
photographed at some stage and your vehicle number checked - could
be a bit awkward if you were 'playin away' in the wrong area of town
and there was a purge on.

Why are you playing away? No need to answer that, I'm not interested,
but it's something to examine your own conscience about.


Wife was with me at the time Mary, and after nearly forty years of marriage,
I think that's the last thing I want to do (keeping one female happy take
all the time that I have, as you will understand) but 'playing away' has
more than one connotation in my book, and it was being used as an example -
anyway, howcome you are so familiar with the term?


Brian G

wrote:
Brian G wrote:
BigWallop wrote:
"raden" wrote in message
...

For those who have switched off from VE day Warplanes ...

http://www.pledgebank.com/no2id


geoff


If everyone of an innocent nature was carrying an ID card, then you
wouldn't be worried at all about being stopped in the street by the
police and asked to show your ID. I think you'd only fly off the
handle and object if you knew you had something to hide, or had just
done something that is against the rules of society, normally called
the moral code.

What about the freedom just to walk about without having to explain
yourself to all and sundry. Remember, it just won't be PC plod who
will have the power to stop you.

With you moral code, what is 'moral' to you is 'immoral' to someone
else, even though what you are doing is perfectly legal!

Who in their right minds would think that, in a population of
millions of people, that they, and they alone, would be picked out
and scrutinised by the big brother state? Answers on a post-card
to: :-)

Ask that question to those people who have been stopped and searched
under the 'Suss law' - even though they have been going about their
lawful business. You, like me are old enough to remember that one,
with people being stopped just because they had long hair - I last
saw that law being used a few years ago when driving through a major
city and four plods had

Err,

just stopped a young lad for no apparent reason in the 'club-land'
area and were searching him.

In other words, you don't have a f**king clue why they stopped him, so
how does that help the argument?

MBQ

Read my response to Mary above - quite right, but I do have a pair of eyes
and a brain that tells me that 2 + 2 is 4 (not 5) and with a response like t
hat, I must have hit a nerve somewhere along the line.

Brian G

Mary Fisher wrote:
"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...

The only people who'll be screwed by this will be the law-abiding UK
nationals.

That sounds like one of the many arguments I hear against speed
cameras. My heart bleeds for the 'law-abiding' ...

Mary

Mary,

I actually agree with the CORRECT use of speed cameras - and as you infer,
if you break the speed limit and get caught - then tough and don't whinge
about it...


Brian G

You
don't mind the police tracking you because you are going out with a
policemans daughter and the father doesn't think much of it?

But we nearly there already (by stealth)

Police arrest you for anything (i.e you dont have to have done anything, say
just on suspision of assult, and then release you again)

Because you have been arrested you will have to consent to having your
photo, fingerprints and DNA sample take to be included on the DNA database.
If you dont "consent" then the Police will use FORCE to take the samples.

The information is then RETAINED FOR AT LEAST LIFE - despite you haveing
commited no crime, and had no charges made against you, and there is nothing
you can do about it.

Every day, your information will be compared to see if you can be linked to
a crime. Thus every day you are a potential suspect.

Because of this policy the police now have DNA records for 2.7 million
people - about 4.5% of the population - the most extensive database in the
World.

The ID card is just another step towards total tracking and a police state -
but we are getting there in other ways already!

On Fri, 20 May 2005 09:17:16 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:

I haven't looked at that but Americans have to have ID. So do very many
countries' citizens.

The merits of other country's different ID schemes are not a defence of
the failures of this scheme.

There is no other country in the world which has (or is planning) an ID
scheme as pervasive as the UK scheme, backed up by so much
cross-referenced tracking of all other aspects. I don't favour the card
itself, but my particular concern is for the database, more than the ID
card.


--
Cats have nine lives, which is why they rarely post to Usenet.

On Thu, 19 May 2005 22:36:44 +0100, Peter Parry
wrote:

On Thu, 19 May 2005 21:38:29 +0100, "Grumps"
wrote:

The only people who might object to id cards are those who are either
illegal in this country or those who have something to hide!!!!

I am neither, but I have some experience of what politicians and
police in this country have done to check people who have neither
committed nor are suspected of having committed any crime. I
therefore object most strongly to this authoritarian claptrap.


I agree.

Another valid argument against ID cards is that they will be an utter
waste of money. All government IT projects go massively over budget.
I predict that it will never work and eventually be abandoned after
costing the Tax Payer billions of pounds. I'd rather see that money
spend elsewhere.

A recent trial of ID cards failed see
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/4459493.stm

Mark

Sam Nelson wrote:

There are websites you can sign up to to look at this stuff. I tried it out
once, and was promptly told that the phone dangling from my belt was actually
in a back street 14 miles distant, and I promptly decided that I wasn't going
to take that on as a service.

If your phone is switched off, it isn't trackable by any means I'm aware of.

The "tracking" of a standard GSM mobile can only be done by
triangulation based on signal levels received at the cell base stations.
In a densely populated area (i.e. lots of base stations) that can be
accurate to a few hundred meters under best conditions. Further out in
the sticks it gets far less accurate.

There is a new breed of phones that does include a GPS receiver. The two
technologies can be used together to report far more accurate positional
information. The phone can work out where it is from GPS. It can then
report this information via the GPRS or GSM data networks if required.
Its main selling point is the ability to provide very local information
via SMS.

These are different facilities again from the eves dropping/bugging
capabilities that can be enabled by using bespoke comms equipment to
generate low level GSM stack primitives for control of audio circuits
etc. I believe that if the phone is off (as opposed to standby) then
these are defeated also. However remove the battery if you are paranoid!

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
news:428ddeb3$0$93768$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-

No, I really don't think that you'll notice the cost over the rest of
your life - or even over a few weeks. Most people seem happy to pay ?80
for a night's entertainment - it's not difficult.

The 80 pound is not so much the issue

It's been mentionedquite a lot :-)

(although in reality it will work out at bout 30 pounds per year I would
guess (id card, passport, drivers license at 300 quid for the lot every 10
years say)), but the say 10bn it costs to implement will represent the
equivalent of a few p on the basic rate of tax. Whether it actually turns
into a few p on the basic rate of tax, or more likely, gets hidden in some
stealth tax is another matter. However I fully expect I will notice!

I'm sure you will. But how many others will? How many others really know
what they're paying in taxes - all included? How do most people know the
price of most things they buy - things like bread, milk, meat, stuff which
is considered essential?

I only want something I need and then, yes, I'm prepared to pay any
price.

There is an important question regarding value here though. If you need a
bag of potatoes, and have the choice of two vendors offering product of
equal quality and one costs ten times the price of the other, I would
expect (all other factors being equal) you would opt for the cheaper one.

We grow our own, mostly. Otherwise we buy according to variety and the ones
we like aren't available at many places. I can honestly say that I've never
come across all other factors being equal when it comes to the potatoes we
buy.

So the same logic needs to apply to ID databases. Firstly what are your[1]
needs? There may be many solutions that can meet that need; so you need to
ask:

1) does an ID database and card meet the need

2) are there ways of meeting the need equally well, that would cost
significantly less.

[1] for broader definitions of "your" to include needs of society in
general.

Since there isn't a correlation between the potatoes we use and the ID
device it's irrelevant :-)

Look, it's going to happen at some time, it might not be in our
lifetimes. It's the way the whole world is going, I believe, whether we
like it or not. There's no point in tilting at windmills..

I am not aware of any other country that is contemplating such an
ambitious scheme as the UK proposals at the moment.

I'm not aware of anything either, at the moment. Or am likely to be.

It would also seem sensible that even if you anticipate that some system
of ID is inevitable, that we delay the process enough to let someone else
do the expensive and error prone groundwork first to establish what works
and what does not.

Oh, you mean let other people suffer first? That is, if they DO suffer.
That's not a charitable outlook.

Mary

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Kieran Mansley" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 20 May 2005 12:23:15 +0100, Mary Fisher wrote:


"Kieran Mansley" wrote in message


My point is that there are many other things that we could spend that
money on that would be much more likely to result in a benefit. Why
risk such a large amount of money on something when there are so many
other better uses for the cash?

Such as?

We - the population - won't feel it.

3bn could make a huge difference to many people's lives, but instead you'd
rather waste it on ID cards? Can you really not think of a single public
organisation, charity, or government department that couldn't make better
use of the cash? Pensions? Schools? NHS? Power generation? Transport?
Poverty? All of these, we are constantly told, are chronically under
funded.

Yes, and I can think of a lot of other spending which I'd rather hadn't been
undertaken.

If you had 3bn at your disposal to be spent for the public good, I very
much doubt you'd go out and buy the country a national ID card scheme:
you'd be much more likely to do something that would actually benefit the
world in some way.

I'd like to think so - but it's never going to happen and I'm not an
armchair - or any other kind of - expert.

If there were a potential very large reward,

For what?

To the world for us having ID cards, whether financial or otherwise.

then the risk might be worth it, but there is no potential very large
reward that I'm aware of, so on balance I don't think the risk is worth
it.

We're not all money minded ...

Of course not, but none of us want to see it wasted either, especially
when such a lot of it is at stake, and when there are so many other better
uses for that money.

I honestly don't think that's the reason most people here object to it:-)

Mary

Kieran

"Brian G" wrote in message
...
Mary Fisher wrote:
"Brian G" wrote in message
...


Brian G

Why don't you use your name? Are you trying to hide something?

Mary,

Brian G is my name, all I have done is withheld the last three letters of
my
surname -as is my right at the moment to use any name that I want - how do
I
know that YOUR name IS Mary Fisher?

As far as I am concerned, you could be a big hairy bloke using the
keyboard
using a feminine name.

Oh bugger, cover blown :-(

Mary

Brian G

MM wrote:

How big is this clip? I've been waiting for at least 2 minutes! I only
have dial-up (no BB out here in the sticks!)

MM

It's only 332k

I just felt it made the argument against "function creep", better than I
could

Lee
--
Email address is valid, but is unlikely to be read.

On Fri, 20 May 2005 13:28:03 +0100, mike wrote:

Mary Fisher wrote:


There may be financial benefits. You don't know until it's tried.

Mary


There may, but the proposed scheme is a massive centralisation. History
suggests that massive centralised databases will be compromised. If
this ones does wouldn't indentity froud become easy?

There is another horrific scenario: Let's assume for the moment that
the ID card is a done deal, it's here, it's supposedly foolproof, the
entire population is so equipped. (Okay, bit of a tall order to
stretch the imagination this far - think of it like giving birth).

Now, numerous organisations, banks, for example, will say, why do we
need to provide our own costly means of verifying a person's bona
fides if the government card represents the best method there is? Some
hrrumphing in smoke-filled rooms, and the solution's simple. The ID
card will henceforth be the only accepted form of identification for
any financial transaction, including mortgages, credit cards, debit
cards, cash from ATMs, whatever.

Meanwhile, in other areas of life the ID card is replacing other forms
of ID, again on the basis that it is wasteful to duplicate stuff
unnecessarily - and also a potential threat to security. After a while
we could end up with - just - one ID card for EVERYthing, from the
cradle to the grave (or concentration camp).

And then the terrorists strike. Or a glitch occurs in the main
computing centre. The entire verification process grinds to a halt. No
one can process anything. The country is paralysed maybe only for
minutes, but maybe for hours or even days. Remember the Auckland, New
Zealand power outage in 1998 after a main cable was severed? It lasted
for several weeks.

The government here would have to bring in emergency measures so that
the public could function somehow (get money, visit hospitals, obtain
medication, use public transport, fill up their cars, and so on).
Moreover, such a valuable piece of identification would be like gold
dust to any would-be thief. Think mugging might stop? Try: mugging
increased by 10,000 per cent!

However, I don't want to put the wind up anyone. It might never
happen. It might just work like the Shangri-la imagined by those
steeped in apathetic complacency.

MM

"Brian G" wrote in message
...

....

And when they
ultimately fit the 'little black box' into your car under the guise
of 'paying for the road you use' then they will be able to track you
on every journey right down to the time that you got into the car
and then got out again.

We log our own journeys so that's nothing new. Except that we also
log the reason for our journeys.

You do that for your own purposes either to claim expenses or just as a
historical record -

We've no idea why we do it, it began many vehicles ago and has become a
habit. Can be interesting though.

it would be a little different if a 'civil servant' is
sat at a desk in the wilds of Scotland watching your every move in your
car
and then sending the local plod around later to ask why you went there in
the first place.

I'd tell him/her, we've nothing to hide. If we were in the wilds of Scotland
there would be others to provide authoritative reasons for our presence.

BTW, if you have a mobile phone, you can be tracked by GPS to within
a few metres - even with it turned off.

Yes ... and your point is? That could be an advantage.

My point is that if it was wanted, you can be tracked wherever you go to -
and I am sure that there are some places you don't want all-and-sundry
knowing that you have been there?

I can think of none.

I propose to install cctv in your home, grumps. I'm going to wire
it to every room, so that we can watch you night and day. You will
only object to this if you are either illegal in this country or
have something to hide...

It wouldn't bother me. You'd get bored out of you paranoid mind
watching it. Can you imagine the result of your fears? Half the
population watching the other half 24/7?

That is exactly what will happen - you will be constantly looking
over your
shoulder to see who is watching or following you.

Not me.

Easy to say that now, but I wonder if the attitude will be the same in a
few
years time?

Well, attitudes do change - by the same token so might yours :-)

I understand that people compete to be on Big Brother.

True, but wait until the Though Police come to take you to room 101 :-)

You've been reading a book again! It was fiction, by the way.

Who watches the watchers? Not Blunkett.

There will be no need, a climate of fear will have been instilled
and the population will watch each other whilst the likes of
Blunkett and Clark can
sleep safely in their beds surrounded by all the trappings of the
pampered.

Since, according to you and MM and others - we're already being
watched, why isn't there already a climate of fear among the majority
of people - i.e. those with nothing to be guilty about?


Mary, EVERYBODY has something to be guilty about

I don't know how you can know that.

I haven't anything to be guilty about. The things I've done wrong are
already known and/or admitted to. I've committed two crimes, one was
speeding without realising. My smile was recorded, I paid the fine with no
plea because I approve of speed cameras. The other, driving without a
licence 36 years ago, was dismissed because the beak, quite rightly,
realised that it was because of an oversight.

and it's that guilt,
perceived or fact, that can be worked on to instill a climate of fear out
of
all proportion to that guilt without you even realising about it.

Have you ever promised something and then reneged on that promise and felt
guilty after?

I haven't deliberately renaged on any promise, if I commit myself to
anything it's done no matter what the cost. When I've forgotten a promise
I've apologised, deeply and sincerely.

We're known for our reliability.

All that sounds priggish, we're not perfect but we have nothing at all to
hide. All our faults are very well known.

Mary

Brian G

On Fri, 20 May 2005 12:50:26 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

MM wrote:

Could I receive Sky through my helmet? I have an old one with a spike
on top.

Just a little too much personal information there thanks.... ;-)

I just thought I'd lighten the mood a bit. Oh, no! I've been struck by
lightning! (This is how the goose step was invented.)

MM