Hey, howdy, rcm.

I want to work with Gorilla Glue, lots of it. No more spray cans of
air-hardening cyano foam for me; That crap cures in the spary tube,
Yeah, I know all about the acetone trick. Schmoopie hates the smell
and it gets mighty cold outside, so it's a no-win.

Let's say I keep a pint or a quart of Gorilla Glue in the home
refrigerator where it's cold and dry, and I let it stand on the
counter overnight before any day I want to use it, so the temperature
is repeatable. Let's say I can measure volumes to 10 ml or weights to
1 gm, whichever is more appropriate the task. Let's say I scale my
projects to use up as much glue foam as I can make with one precious
drop of water.

So I am wondering how to find out:

To how much Gorilla Glue, by volume or weight, do I add *one drop* of
tap water with stirring for 1 minute by hand, for application within
the next 5 minutes, to get a foam that will end up in 24 hours, "not
completely unlike", that is, a reasonable match (in acoustic impedance
or machinability or density or stiffness per volume, pick one and say
why) for:

Styrene Foam?

Balsa?

Pine?

Oak?

Acetal?

Acrylic?

Magnesium?

Aluminum?

Mild Steel?

It's all about the damn futon. Friend gave it to us. I cut panels to
fit the rack-of-torture frame. I want to foam glue them. I want them
to stay. I don't want spray foam on the rug, or anywhere else. I want
some control. Yeah, caulk would work.

But then I got thinking...I used Gorilla Glue on the patio bricks and
they stayed put. You just have to keep it very dry, and never touch
the nozzle to anything. I know how to do that.

Here's a tougher question:

How would you dispense 1/10 drop of water?


Douglas (Dana) Goncz, CPS
Replikon Research
Seven Corners, VA 22044-0394

On Sep 13, 4:39*pm, The Dougster
wrote:
Hey, howdy, rcm.

I want to work with Gorilla Glue, lots of it. No more spray cans of
air-hardening cyano foam for me; That crap cures in the spary tube,
Yeah, I know all about the acetone trick. Schmoopie hates the smell
and it gets mighty cold outside, so it's a no-win.

Let's say I keep a pint or a quart of Gorilla Glue in the home
refrigerator where it's cold and dry, and I let it stand on the
counter overnight before any day I want to use it, so the temperature
is repeatable. Let's say I can measure volumes to 10 ml or weights to
1 gm, whichever is more appropriate the task. *Let's say I scale my
projects to use up as much glue foam as I can make with one precious
drop of water.

So I am wondering how to find out:

To how much Gorilla Glue, by volume or weight, do I add *one drop* of
tap water with stirring for 1 minute by hand, for application within
the next 5 minutes, to get a foam that will end up in 24 hours, "not
completely unlike", that is, a reasonable match (in acoustic impedance
or machinability or density or stiffness per volume, pick one and say
why) for:

Styrene Foam?

Balsa?

Pine?

Oak?

Acetal?

Acrylic?

Magnesium?

Aluminum?

Mild Steel?

It's all about the damn futon. Friend gave it to us. I cut panels to
fit the rack-of-torture frame. I want to foam glue them. I want them
to stay. I don't want spray foam on the rug, or anywhere else. I want
some control. Yeah, caulk would work.

But then I got thinking...I used Gorilla Glue on the patio bricks and
they stayed put. You just have to keep it very dry, and never touch
the nozzle to anything. I know how to do that.

Here's a tougher question:

How would you dispense 1/10 drop of water?

Douglas (Dana) Goncz, CPS
Replikon Research
Seven Corners, VA 22044-0394

micropipette
Karl

The Dougster wrote:

Here's a tougher question:

How would you dispense 1/10 drop of water?

Syringe and treat the water with a surfactant?

Wes

On Sep 13, 10:39*pm, The Dougster
wrote:
Hey, howdy, rcm.

I want to work with Gorilla Glue, lots of it. No more spray cans of
air-hardening cyano foam for me; That crap cures in the spary tube,
Yeah, I know all about the acetone trick. Schmoopie hates the smell
and it gets mighty cold outside, so it's a no-win.

Let's say I keep a pint or a quart of Gorilla Glue in the home
refrigerator where it's cold and dry, and I let it stand on the
counter overnight before any day I want to use it, so the temperature
is repeatable. Let's say I can measure volumes to 10 ml or weights to
1 gm, whichever is more appropriate the task. *Let's say I scale my
projects to use up as much glue foam as I can make with one precious
drop of water.

So I am wondering how to find out:

To how much Gorilla Glue, by volume or weight, do I add *one drop* of
tap water with stirring for 1 minute by hand, for application within
the next 5 minutes, to get a foam that will end up in 24 hours, "not
completely unlike", that is, a reasonable match (in acoustic impedance
or machinability or density or stiffness per volume, pick one and say
why) for:

Styrene Foam?

Balsa?

Pine?

Oak?

Acetal?

Acrylic?

Magnesium?

Aluminum?

Mild Steel?

It's all about the damn futon. Friend gave it to us. I cut panels to
fit the rack-of-torture frame. I want to foam glue them. I want them
to stay. I don't want spray foam on the rug, or anywhere else. I want
some control. Yeah, caulk would work.

But then I got thinking...I used Gorilla Glue on the patio bricks and
they stayed put. You just have to keep it very dry, and never touch
the nozzle to anything. I know how to do that.

Here's a tougher question:

How would you dispense 1/10 drop of water?

Douglas (Dana) Goncz, CPS
Replikon Research
Seven Corners, VA 22044-0394

For U100 syringes used by diabetics, each unit is 10 microliters. A
drop of water is 50 microliters. To dispense 1/10th of a drop of
water use a 1/2 unit on a diabetic syringe.

"Denis G." wrote in message
...
On Sep 13, 10:39 pm, The Dougster
wrote:
Hey, howdy, rcm.

I want to work with Gorilla Glue, lots of it. No more spray cans of
air-hardening cyano foam for me; That crap cures in the spary tube,
Yeah, I know all about the acetone trick. Schmoopie hates the smell
and it gets mighty cold outside, so it's a no-win.

Let's say I keep a pint or a quart of Gorilla Glue in the home
refrigerator where it's cold and dry, and I let it stand on the
counter overnight before any day I want to use it, so the temperature
is repeatable. Let's say I can measure volumes to 10 ml or weights to
1 gm, whichever is more appropriate the task. Let's say I scale my
projects to use up as much glue foam as I can make with one precious
drop of water.

So I am wondering how to find out:

To how much Gorilla Glue, by volume or weight, do I add *one drop* of
tap water with stirring for 1 minute by hand, for application within
the next 5 minutes, to get a foam that will end up in 24 hours, "not
completely unlike", that is, a reasonable match (in acoustic impedance
or machinability or density or stiffness per volume, pick one and say
why) for:

Styrene Foam?

Balsa?

Pine?

Oak?

Acetal?

Acrylic?

Magnesium?

Aluminum?

Mild Steel?

It's all about the damn futon. Friend gave it to us. I cut panels to
fit the rack-of-torture frame. I want to foam glue them. I want them
to stay. I don't want spray foam on the rug, or anywhere else. I want
some control. Yeah, caulk would work.

But then I got thinking...I used Gorilla Glue on the patio bricks and
they stayed put. You just have to keep it very dry, and never touch
the nozzle to anything. I know how to do that.

Here's a tougher question:

How would you dispense 1/10 drop of water?

Douglas (Dana) Goncz, CPS
Replikon Research
Seven Corners, VA 22044-0394

For U100 syringes used by diabetics, each unit is 10 microliters. A
drop of water is 50 microliters. To dispense 1/10th of a drop of
water use a 1/2 unit on a diabetic syringe.

Easier said than done. If the accuracy required is +/- half of that value --
in other words, +/- 1/20th -- you can do it with a 30-unit syringe if you
have a steady hand and if you use a new syringe. Otherwise, the spacings for
one unit on a 50-unit B-D "low-dose" syringe, for example, which is still a
small syringe, are 1 mm each. That's extremely difficult to control.

I like the micropipette idea better, even though I've used around 38,000
syringes in my lifetime. I also could recommend an insulin pump, which is
programmable in 1/10-unit doses, but they run around $6,000 +. g

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Denis G." wrote in message
...
On Sep 13, 10:39 pm, The Dougster
wrote:
Hey, howdy, rcm.

I want to work with Gorilla Glue, lots of it. No more spray cans of
air-hardening cyano foam for me; That crap cures in the spary tube,
Yeah, I know all about the acetone trick. Schmoopie hates the smell
and it gets mighty cold outside, so it's a no-win.

Let's say I keep a pint or a quart of Gorilla Glue in the home
refrigerator where it's cold and dry, and I let it stand on the
counter overnight before any day I want to use it, so the temperature
is repeatable. Let's say I can measure volumes to 10 ml or weights to
1 gm, whichever is more appropriate the task. Let's say I scale my
projects to use up as much glue foam as I can make with one precious
drop of water.

So I am wondering how to find out:

To how much Gorilla Glue, by volume or weight, do I add *one drop* of
tap water with stirring for 1 minute by hand, for application within
the next 5 minutes, to get a foam that will end up in 24 hours, "not
completely unlike", that is, a reasonable match (in acoustic impedance
or machinability or density or stiffness per volume, pick one and say
why) for:

Styrene Foam?

Balsa?

Pine?

Oak?

Acetal?

Acrylic?

Magnesium?

Aluminum?

Mild Steel?

It's all about the damn futon. Friend gave it to us. I cut panels to
fit the rack-of-torture frame. I want to foam glue them. I want them
to stay. I don't want spray foam on the rug, or anywhere else. I want
some control. Yeah, caulk would work.

But then I got thinking...I used Gorilla Glue on the patio bricks and
they stayed put. You just have to keep it very dry, and never touch
the nozzle to anything. I know how to do that.

Here's a tougher question:

How would you dispense 1/10 drop of water?

Douglas (Dana) Goncz, CPS
Replikon Research
Seven Corners, VA 22044-0394

For U100 syringes used by diabetics, each unit is 10 microliters. A
drop of water is 50 microliters. To dispense 1/10th of a drop of
water use a 1/2 unit on a diabetic syringe.

Hey, here's something curious. I just tried this, and got funny little
drops, much smaller than I would get with an eyedropper, for example.

I took a 30-unit syringe, filled it with water, and counted the drops in 5
units. I got 11 drops -- close enough to 10 -- but they were really teeny.
These were drops that would detach themselves and free-fall as I held the
syringe point-down; just ordinary drops.

That's exactly 1/10 the size you're describing -- one drop from this syringe
is 5 microliters. I see from some references online that this is the same
size as a drop of water dispensed from a Pasteur micropipette.

So is the size of the drop that dependent on the opening from which they're
dispensed? This was a 30-guage needle. I'd have to mike it to see the size,
but it's *really* thin.

--
Ed Huntress

On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 09:35:10 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:



Hey, here's something curious. I just tried this, and got funny little
drops, much smaller than I would get with an eyedropper, for example.

I took a 30-unit syringe, filled it with water, and counted the drops in 5
units. I got 11 drops -- close enough to 10 -- but they were really teeny.
These were drops that would detach themselves and free-fall as I held the
syringe point-down; just ordinary drops.

That's exactly 1/10 the size you're describing -- one drop from this syringe
is 5 microliters. I see from some references online that this is the same
size as a drop of water dispensed from a Pasteur micropipette.

So is the size of the drop that dependent on the opening from which they're
dispensed? This was a 30-guage needle. I'd have to mike it to see the size,
but it's *really* thin.

Might get smaller if you ground and lapped the end square. Or not...


PS Are you throwing the things away after only one use? I get a couple of
weeks out of mine.


Mark Rand
RTFM

"Mark Rand" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 09:35:10 -0400, "Ed Huntress"

wrote:



Hey, here's something curious. I just tried this, and got funny little
drops, much smaller than I would get with an eyedropper, for example.

I took a 30-unit syringe, filled it with water, and counted the drops in 5
units. I got 11 drops -- close enough to 10 -- but they were really teeny.
These were drops that would detach themselves and free-fall as I held the
syringe point-down; just ordinary drops.

That's exactly 1/10 the size you're describing -- one drop from this
syringe
is 5 microliters. I see from some references online that this is the same
size as a drop of water dispensed from a Pasteur micropipette.

So is the size of the drop that dependent on the opening from which
they're
dispensed? This was a 30-guage needle. I'd have to mike it to see the
size,
but it's *really* thin.

Might get smaller if you ground and lapped the end square. Or not...

I'll bet it would get bigger. I'll try it, but not now.



PS Are you throwing the things away after only one use? I get a couple of
weeks out of mine.

I don't use them at all anymore. I have a pump. But I typically used them
three times. The old 28-guage ones lasted longer. 29-guage is my favorite.
With the callouses I have, the 30-guage sometimes bends right over at a 90
degree angle when I try to push it in.

I used to use them until you had to screw them in. d8-)

I have sharpened a few, when I was in a pinch, on a black hard Arkansas
stone. It works pretty well.

--
Ed Huntress



Mark Rand
RTFM

On Sep 14, 9:35*am, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message

...







"Denis G." wrote in message
....
On Sep 13, 10:39 pm, The Dougster
wrote:
Hey, howdy, rcm.

I want to work with Gorilla Glue, lots of it. No more spray cans of
air-hardening cyano foam for me; That crap cures in the spary tube,
Yeah, I know all about the acetone trick. Schmoopie hates the smell
and it gets mighty cold outside, so it's a no-win.

Let's say I keep a pint or a quart of Gorilla Glue in the home
refrigerator where it's cold and dry, and I let it stand on the
counter overnight before any day I want to use it, so the temperature
is repeatable. Let's say I can measure volumes to 10 ml or weights to
1 gm, whichever is more appropriate the task. Let's say I scale my
projects to use up as much glue foam as I can make with one precious
drop of water.

So I am wondering how to find out:

To how much Gorilla Glue, by volume or weight, do I add *one drop* of
tap water with stirring for 1 minute by hand, for application within
the next 5 minutes, to get a foam that will end up in 24 hours, "not
completely unlike", that is, a reasonable match (in acoustic impedance
or machinability or density or stiffness per volume, pick one and say
why) for:

Styrene Foam?

Balsa?

Pine?

Oak?

Acetal?

Acrylic?

Magnesium?

Aluminum?

Mild Steel?

It's all about the damn futon. Friend gave it to us. I cut panels to
fit the rack-of-torture frame. I want to foam glue them. I want them
to stay. I don't want spray foam on the rug, or anywhere else. I want
some control. Yeah, caulk would work.

But then I got thinking...I used Gorilla Glue on the patio bricks and
they stayed put. You just have to keep it very dry, and never touch
the nozzle to anything. I know how to do that.

Here's a tougher question:

How would you dispense 1/10 drop of water?

Douglas (Dana) Goncz, CPS
Replikon Research
Seven Corners, VA 22044-0394

For U100 syringes used by diabetics, each unit is 10 microliters. *A
drop of water is 50 microliters. *To dispense 1/10th of a drop of
water use a 1/2 unit on a diabetic syringe.

Hey, here's something curious. I just tried this, and got funny little
drops, much smaller than I would get with an eyedropper, for example.

I took a 30-unit syringe, filled it with water, and counted the drops in 5
units. I got 11 drops -- close enough to 10 -- but they were really teeny..
These were drops that would detach themselves and free-fall as I held the
syringe point-down; just ordinary drops.

That's exactly 1/10 the size you're describing -- one drop from this syringe
is 5 microliters. I see from some references online that this is the same
size as a drop of water dispensed from a Pasteur micropipette.

So is the size of the drop that dependent on the opening from which they're
dispensed? This was a 30-guage needle. I'd have to mike it to see the size,
but it's *really* thin.

--
Ed Huntress- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You're probably right on the difficulty of dispensing it accurately.
It was only a ballpark method with commonly available tools if you
didn't want the expense of buying a micropipetter. I suppose you
might be able to make your own micropipetter by attaching a dial
caliper to a syringe. To get real accuracy you probably need to
develop the art of dispensing small volumes or just get the right
tools.

On 2009-09-14, Denis G. wrote:
On Sep 14, 9:35*am, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message

...







"Denis G." wrote in message
...
On Sep 13, 10:39 pm, The Dougster
wrote:

[ ... ]

Let's say I keep a pint or a quart of Gorilla Glue in the home
refrigerator where it's cold and dry, and I let it stand on the
counter overnight before any day I want to use it, so the temperature
is repeatable. Let's say I can measure volumes to 10 ml or weights to
1 gm, whichever is more appropriate the task. Let's say I scale my
projects to use up as much glue foam as I can make with one precious
drop of water.

[ ... ]

Here's a tougher question:

How would you dispense 1/10 drop of water?

[ ... ]

For U100 syringes used by diabetics, each unit is 10 microliters. *A
drop of water is 50 microliters. *To dispense 1/10th of a drop of
water use a 1/2 unit on a diabetic syringe.

Hey, here's something curious. I just tried this, and got funny little
drops, much smaller than I would get with an eyedropper, for example.

I took a 30-unit syringe, filled it with water, and counted the drops in 5
units. I got 11 drops -- close enough to 10 -- but they were really teeny.
These were drops that would detach themselves and free-fall as I held the
syringe point-down; just ordinary drops.

That's exactly 1/10 the size you're describing -- one drop from this syringe
is 5 microliters. I see from some references online that this is the same
size as a drop of water dispensed from a Pasteur micropipette.

So is the size of the drop that dependent on the opening from which they're
dispensed? This was a 30-guage needle. I'd have to mike it to see the size,
but it's *really* thin.

[ ... ]

You're probably right on the difficulty of dispensing it accurately.
It was only a ballpark method with commonly available tools if you
didn't want the expense of buying a micropipetter. I suppose you
might be able to make your own micropipetter by attaching a dial
caliper to a syringe.

Instead of the dial caliper, set up a frame to hold the syringe,
and use a micrometer thimble assembly to advance the plunger.

To get real accuracy you probably need to
develop the art of dispensing small volumes or just get the right
tools.

Or make the tools.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Sep 14, 4:22*pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"Mark Rand" wrote in message

...







On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 09:35:10 -0400, "Ed Huntress"

wrote:

Hey, here's something curious. I just tried this, and got funny little
drops, much smaller than I would get with an eyedropper, for example.

I took a 30-unit syringe, filled it with water, and counted the drops in 5
units. I got 11 drops -- close enough to 10 -- but they were really teeny.
These were drops that would detach themselves and free-fall as I held the
syringe point-down; just ordinary drops.

That's exactly 1/10 the size you're describing -- one drop from this
syringe
is 5 microliters. I see from some references online that this is the same
size as a drop of water dispensed from a Pasteur micropipette.

So is the size of the drop that dependent on the opening from which
they're
dispensed? This was a 30-guage needle. I'd have to mike it to see the
size,
but it's *really* thin.

Might get smaller if you ground and lapped the end square. Or not...

I'll bet it would get bigger. I'll try it, but not now.



PS Are you throwing the things away after only one use? *I get a couple of
weeks out of mine.

I don't use them at all anymore. I have a pump. But I typically used them
three times. The old 28-guage ones lasted longer. 29-guage is my favorite..
With the callouses I have, the 30-guage sometimes bends right over at a 90
degree angle when I try to push it in.

I used to use them until you had to screw them in. d8-)

I have sharpened a few, when I was in a pinch, on a black hard Arkansas
stone. It works pretty well.

--
Ed Huntress



Mark Rand
RTFM

Geeze, how many people here have diabetes? Show of hands?

I don't but my brother does (and my mother did as well). Last time I
checked (a couple of months ago), my blood glucose was 85 an hour
after a large-ish meal so for the time being, I appear to have dodged
that bullet.

But back to the matter at hand. How about making a screw-activated
plunger pusher? You'd have some stiction problems in the syringe, but
maybe not too bad. Also, Ed, are the cartridges in the pump
refillable? They're usually operated by a stepper motor driving a
screw, and can deliver pretty small increments. It should be pretty
straightforward to concoct a device with a fine-thread screw, maybe
with a 10:1 vernier dial drive for good measure.

The old glass syringes were very slippery, but I don't know if they
make them in very narrow bores.

If it's too hard to control the movement of a syringe plunger, you
could use a diaphragm instead, which would have pretty close to zero
friction.

Just some random thoughts from a tired former designer of anesthesia
equipment.

On Sep 14, 9:09*pm, "Steve W." wrote:
Ed Huntress wrote:
"Mark Rand" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 09:35:10 -0400, "Ed Huntress"

wrote:

Hey, here's something curious. I just tried this, and got funny little
drops, much smaller than I would get with an eyedropper, for example.

I took a 30-unit syringe, filled it with water, and counted the drops in 5
units. I got 11 drops -- close enough to 10 -- but they were really teeny.
These were drops that would detach themselves and free-fall as I held the
syringe point-down; just ordinary drops.

That's exactly 1/10 the size you're describing -- one drop from this
syringe
is 5 microliters. I see from some references online that this is the same
size as a drop of water dispensed from a Pasteur micropipette.

So is the size of the drop that dependent on the opening from which
they're
dispensed? This was a 30-guage needle. I'd have to mike it to see the
size,
but it's *really* thin.
Might get smaller if you ground and lapped the end square. Or not...

I'll bet it would get bigger. I'll try it, but not now.

PS Are you throwing the things away after only one use? *I get a couple of
weeks out of mine.

I don't use them at all anymore. I have a pump. But I typically used them
three times. The old 28-guage ones lasted longer. 29-guage is my favorite.
With the callouses I have, the 30-guage sometimes bends right over at a 90
degree angle when I try to push it in.

I used to use them until you had to screw them in. d8-)

I have sharpened a few, when I was in a pinch, on a black hard Arkansas
stone. It works pretty well.

--
Ed Huntress

30 gauge... Gee what a wimp. Get out a REAL needle 18 large bore...
First time I used one on a patient for a mainline IV push, I commented
to them about the knitting needles we used because we couldn't find a
brush to clean the smaller ones!

I have used a 30 on pediatrics. You don't even want to twitch with them.

--
Steve W.

My father, who was a doctor, used to threaten to give us our
vaccinations with the rusty, hooked needle. He was pretty warped at
times.

On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 21:20:43 -0700 (PDT), rangerssuck
wrote:

On Sep 14, 9:09*pm, "Steve W." wrote:
Ed Huntress wrote:
"Mark Rand" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 09:35:10 -0400, "Ed Huntress"

wrote:

Hey, here's something curious. I just tried this, and got funny little
drops, much smaller than I would get with an eyedropper, for example.

I took a 30-unit syringe, filled it with water, and counted the drops in 5
units. I got 11 drops -- close enough to 10 -- but they were really teeny.
These were drops that would detach themselves and free-fall as I held the
syringe point-down; just ordinary drops.

That's exactly 1/10 the size you're describing -- one drop from this
syringe
is 5 microliters. I see from some references online that this is the same
size as a drop of water dispensed from a Pasteur micropipette.

So is the size of the drop that dependent on the opening from which
they're
dispensed? This was a 30-guage needle. I'd have to mike it to see the
size,
but it's *really* thin.
Might get smaller if you ground and lapped the end square. Or not...

I'll bet it would get bigger. I'll try it, but not now.

PS Are you throwing the things away after only one use? *I get a couple of
weeks out of mine.

I don't use them at all anymore. I have a pump. But I typically used them
three times. The old 28-guage ones lasted longer. 29-guage is my favorite.
With the callouses I have, the 30-guage sometimes bends right over at a 90
degree angle when I try to push it in.

I used to use them until you had to screw them in. d8-)

I have sharpened a few, when I was in a pinch, on a black hard Arkansas
stone. It works pretty well.

--
Ed Huntress

30 gauge... Gee what a wimp. Get out a REAL needle 18 large bore...
First time I used one on a patient for a mainline IV push, I commented
to them about the knitting needles we used because we couldn't find a
brush to clean the smaller ones!

I have used a 30 on pediatrics. You don't even want to twitch with them.

--
Steve W.

My father, who was a doctor, used to threaten to give us our
vaccinations with the rusty, hooked needle. He was pretty warped at
times.
As a nurse in a somewhat isolated area, my mother kept a sharpening
stone readily at hand.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...
On Sep 14, 4:22 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"Mark Rand" wrote in message

...







On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 09:35:10 -0400, "Ed Huntress"

wrote:

Hey, here's something curious. I just tried this, and got funny little
drops, much smaller than I would get with an eyedropper, for example.

I took a 30-unit syringe, filled it with water, and counted the drops in
5
units. I got 11 drops -- close enough to 10 -- but they were really
teeny.
These were drops that would detach themselves and free-fall as I held
the
syringe point-down; just ordinary drops.

That's exactly 1/10 the size you're describing -- one drop from this
syringe
is 5 microliters. I see from some references online that this is the
same
size as a drop of water dispensed from a Pasteur micropipette.

So is the size of the drop that dependent on the opening from which
they're
dispensed? This was a 30-guage needle. I'd have to mike it to see the
size,
but it's *really* thin.

Might get smaller if you ground and lapped the end square. Or not...

I'll bet it would get bigger. I'll try it, but not now.



PS Are you throwing the things away after only one use? I get a couple
of
weeks out of mine.

I don't use them at all anymore. I have a pump. But I typically used them
three times. The old 28-guage ones lasted longer. 29-guage is my favorite.
With the callouses I have, the 30-guage sometimes bends right over at a 90
degree angle when I try to push it in.

I used to use them until you had to screw them in. d8-)

I have sharpened a few, when I was in a pinch, on a black hard Arkansas
stone. It works pretty well.

--
Ed Huntress



Mark Rand
RTFM

Geeze, how many people here have diabetes? Show of hands?

Mark and I are unusual in that we're both Type 1's -- juvenile diabetics.
Roughly 90% of diabetics are Type 2's. They're the adult-onset type that's
associated with age, obesity, etc. Type 1's are the ones that usually get it
in childhood and are totally insulin-dependent. The condition is an
autoimmune disease, rather than an endocrinal breakdown or overload that
leads to Type 2.

I don't but my brother does (and my mother did as well). Last time I
checked (a couple of months ago), my blood glucose was 85 an hour
after a large-ish meal so for the time being, I appear to have dodged
that bullet.

But back to the matter at hand. How about making a screw-activated
plunger pusher? You'd have some stiction problems in the syringe, but
maybe not too bad.

I don't think that much accuracy is required. Except in the
computer-controlled pumps, no one is trying to dispense fractions of a
unit -- except for babies, and the solution there is to dilute the insulin.
It's typically diluted 10:1 for babies, and it's done by professionals or by
very capable parents of those kids.

Also, Ed, are the cartridges in the pump
refillable?

No. Use once and toss. But they don't come pre-filled. You have to fill them
before using them, but the filling devices are pretty well wrecked from
one-time use.

They're usually operated by a stepper motor driving a
screw, and can deliver pretty small increments.

Right. The resolution on mine is 1/10 unit, and 100 units equal one mL (or
cc; same thing).

It should be pretty
straightforward to concoct a device with a fine-thread screw, maybe
with a 10:1 vernier dial drive for good measure.

Yeah, but it's not really needed. The insulin doses can't be matched to the
need that closely. There's some dithering around the ideal doseage because
there are so many variables involved in determining the insulin requirement
at any given time.

The old glass syringes were very slippery, but I don't know if they
make them in very narrow bores.

If it's too hard to control the movement of a syringe plunger, you
could use a diaphragm instead, which would have pretty close to zero
friction.

Just some random thoughts from a tired former designer of anesthesia
equipment.

Interesting thoughts, but they're a solution for a problem that really isn't
out there.

--
Ed Huntress

On Sep 15, 12:42*am, "DoN. Nichols" wrote:
On 2009-09-15, rangerssuck wrote:

On Sep 14, 4:22*pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"Mark Rand" wrote in message

. ..

* * * * [ ... ]

On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 09:35:10 -0400, "Ed Huntress"

wrote:

Hey, here's something curious. I just tried this, and got funny little
drops, much smaller than I would get with an eyedropper, for example..

I took a 30-unit syringe, filled it with water, and counted the drops in 5
units. I got 11 drops -- close enough to 10 -- but they were really teeny.
These were drops that would detach themselves and free-fall as I held the
syringe point-down; just ordinary drops.

* * * * [ ... ]

Geeze, how many people here have diabetes? Show of hands?

* * * * Well ... I have a mild form at present -- controlled by pills
instead of injections.

* * * * [ ... ]

The old glass syringes were very slippery, but I don't know if they
make them in very narrow bores.

If it's too hard to control the movement of a syringe plunger, you
could use a diaphragm instead, which would have pretty close to zero
friction.

* * * * A diaphragm has the problem of giving variable delivery for a
given motion, depending on whether it is positively curved, nearly flat,
or negatively curved at the moment.

All can be compensated for - what we used to call SMOP (simple matter
of programming).


* * * * Enjoy,
* * * * * * * * DoN.

--
*Email: * * | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
* * * * (too) near Washington D.C. |http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
* * * * * *--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Sep 15, 12:32*am, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"rangerssuck" wrote in message

...
On Sep 14, 4:22 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:



"Mark Rand" wrote in message

.. .

On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 09:35:10 -0400, "Ed Huntress"

wrote:

Hey, here's something curious. I just tried this, and got funny little
drops, much smaller than I would get with an eyedropper, for example.

I took a 30-unit syringe, filled it with water, and counted the drops in
5
units. I got 11 drops -- close enough to 10 -- but they were really
teeny.
These were drops that would detach themselves and free-fall as I held
the
syringe point-down; just ordinary drops.

That's exactly 1/10 the size you're describing -- one drop from this
syringe
is 5 microliters. I see from some references online that this is the
same
size as a drop of water dispensed from a Pasteur micropipette.

So is the size of the drop that dependent on the opening from which
they're
dispensed? This was a 30-guage needle. I'd have to mike it to see the
size,
but it's *really* thin.

Might get smaller if you ground and lapped the end square. Or not...

I'll bet it would get bigger. I'll try it, but not now.

PS Are you throwing the things away after only one use? I get a couple
of
weeks out of mine.

I don't use them at all anymore. I have a pump. But I typically used them
three times. The old 28-guage ones lasted longer. 29-guage is my favorite.
With the callouses I have, the 30-guage sometimes bends right over at a 90
degree angle when I try to push it in.

I used to use them until you had to screw them in. d8-)

I have sharpened a few, when I was in a pinch, on a black hard Arkansas
stone. It works pretty well.

--
Ed Huntress

Mark Rand
RTFM
Geeze, how many people here have diabetes? Show of hands?

Mark and I are unusual in that we're both Type 1's -- juvenile diabetics.
Roughly 90% of diabetics are Type 2's. They're the adult-onset type that's
associated with age, obesity, etc. Type 1's are the ones that usually get it
in childhood and are totally insulin-dependent. The condition is an
autoimmune disease, rather than an endocrinal breakdown or overload that
leads to Type 2.

I don't but my brother does (and my mother did as well). Last time I
checked (a couple of months ago), my blood glucose was 85 an hour
after a large-ish meal so for the time being, I appear to have dodged
that bullet.
But back to the matter at hand. How about making a screw-activated
plunger pusher? You'd have some stiction problems in the syringe, but
maybe not too bad.

I don't think that much accuracy is required. Except in the
computer-controlled pumps, no one is trying to dispense fractions of a
unit -- except for babies, and the solution there is to dilute the insulin.

"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...
On Sep 15, 12:32 am, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"rangerssuck" wrote in message

...
On Sep 14, 4:22 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:



"Mark Rand" wrote in message

.. .

On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 09:35:10 -0400, "Ed Huntress"

wrote:

Hey, here's something curious. I just tried this, and got funny little
drops, much smaller than I would get with an eyedropper, for example.

I took a 30-unit syringe, filled it with water, and counted the drops
in
5
units. I got 11 drops -- close enough to 10 -- but they were really
teeny.
These were drops that would detach themselves and free-fall as I held
the
syringe point-down; just ordinary drops.

That's exactly 1/10 the size you're describing -- one drop from this
syringe
is 5 microliters. I see from some references online that this is the
same
size as a drop of water dispensed from a Pasteur micropipette.

So is the size of the drop that dependent on the opening from which
they're
dispensed? This was a 30-guage needle. I'd have to mike it to see the
size,
but it's *really* thin.

Might get smaller if you ground and lapped the end square. Or not...

I'll bet it would get bigger. I'll try it, but not now.

PS Are you throwing the things away after only one use? I get a couple
of
weeks out of mine.

I don't use them at all anymore. I have a pump. But I typically used
them
three times. The old 28-guage ones lasted longer. 29-guage is my
favorite.
With the callouses I have, the 30-guage sometimes bends right over at a
90
degree angle when I try to push it in.

I used to use them until you had to screw them in. d8-)

I have sharpened a few, when I was in a pinch, on a black hard Arkansas
stone. It works pretty well.

--
Ed Huntress

Mark Rand
RTFM
Geeze, how many people here have diabetes? Show of hands?

Mark and I are unusual in that we're both Type 1's -- juvenile diabetics.
Roughly 90% of diabetics are Type 2's. They're the adult-onset type that's
associated with age, obesity, etc. Type 1's are the ones that usually get
it
in childhood and are totally insulin-dependent. The condition is an
autoimmune disease, rather than an endocrinal breakdown or overload that
leads to Type 2.

I don't but my brother does (and my mother did as well). Last time I
checked (a couple of months ago), my blood glucose was 85 an hour
after a large-ish meal so for the time being, I appear to have dodged
that bullet.
But back to the matter at hand. How about making a screw-activated
plunger pusher? You'd have some stiction problems in the syringe, but
maybe not too bad.

I don't think that much accuracy is required. Except in the
computer-controlled pumps, no one is trying to dispense fractions of a
unit -- except for babies, and the solution there is to dilute the
insulin.
It's typically diluted 10:1 for babies, and it's done by professionals or
by
very capable parents of those kids.

Also, Ed, are the cartridges in the pump
refillable?

No. Use once and toss. But they don't come pre-filled. You have to fill
them
before using them, but the filling devices are pretty well wrecked from
one-time use.

They're usually operated by a stepper motor driving a
screw, and can deliver pretty small increments.

Right. The resolution on mine is 1/10 unit, and 100 units equal one mL (or
cc; same thing).

It should be pretty
straightforward to concoct a device with a fine-thread screw, maybe
with a 10:1 vernier dial drive for good measure.

Yeah, but it's not really needed. The insulin doses can't be matched to
the
need that closely. There's some dithering around the ideal doseage because
there are so many variables involved in determining the insulin
requirement
at any given time.

The old glass syringes were very slippery, but I don't know if they
make them in very narrow bores.
If it's too hard to control the movement of a syringe plunger, you
could use a diaphragm instead, which would have pretty close to zero
friction.
Just some random thoughts from a tired former designer of anesthesia
equipment.

Interesting thoughts, but they're a solution for a problem that really
isn't
out there.

--
Ed Huntress

Yeah but... When you're upt to your neck in alligators, it's hard to
remember that you came here to drain the swamp.

We weren't talking about dispensing infinitesimal doses of insulin
(and wouldn't it be cool if there was continuous monitoring and
feedback that could take advantage of that precision?). The problem at
hand is dispensing infinitesimal doses of water, for the purpose of
mixing foaming Gorilla Glue.
From Doug's original post (at the top of this thread):

Here's a tougher question:
How would you dispense 1/10 drop of water?

So, in that context, would it be possible to refill an insulin
cartridge and construct a simple dispenser to hold it and apply screw
pressure to the plunger?

Oh, sorry, I didn't realize you were back to the water question. The answer
is, yes, you could refill those cartridges with water. They hold around 3
cc. You'd need to adapt the thingies that transfer insulin to the cartridge,
but that would be pretty easy. Those things are used once and tossed in the
original application but they probably would last for a while if you weren't
concerned about sanitation.

The pump contains a single AAA battery and a tiny stepper motor, which
drives a plastic screw that pushes on the end of a plunger, like a large
syringe plunger. That feeds a small-bore flexible plastic hose, 24" long,
typically, which can be cut off to make a "nozzle."

--
Ed Huntress

In article ,
The Dougster wrote:
:
:Here's a tougher question:
:
:How would you dispense 1/10 drop of water?

Hmmm, what have I got around here that makes really tiny droplets? I
thought I had something over on the back corner of this desk, but I
can't see back there right now 'cause there's this big Inkjet printer in
the way.

Hmmm, ... . No clue, sorry. ;-)

--
Bob Nichols AT comcast.net I am "RNichols42"

On Sep 15, 8:35*am, rangerssuck wrote:
On Sep 15, 12:32*am, "Ed Huntress" wrote:





"rangerssuck" wrote in message

....
On Sep 14, 4:22 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:

"Mark Rand" wrote in message

.. .

On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 09:35:10 -0400, "Ed Huntress"

wrote:

Hey, here's something curious. I just tried this, and got funny little
drops, much smaller than I would get with an eyedropper, for example.

I took a 30-unit syringe, filled it with water, and counted the drops in
5
units. I got 11 drops -- close enough to 10 -- but they were really
teeny.
These were drops that would detach themselves and free-fall as I held
the
syringe point-down; just ordinary drops.

That's exactly 1/10 the size you're describing -- one drop from this
syringe
is 5 microliters. I see from some references online that this is the
same
size as a drop of water dispensed from a Pasteur micropipette.

So is the size of the drop that dependent on the opening from which
they're
dispensed? This was a 30-guage needle. I'd have to mike it to see the
size,
but it's *really* thin.

Might get smaller if you ground and lapped the end square. Or not....

I'll bet it would get bigger. I'll try it, but not now.

PS Are you throwing the things away after only one use? I get a couple
of
weeks out of mine.

I don't use them at all anymore. I have a pump. But I typically used them
three times. The old 28-guage ones lasted longer. 29-guage is my favorite.
With the callouses I have, the 30-guage sometimes bends right over at a 90
degree angle when I try to push it in.

I used to use them until you had to screw them in. d8-)

I have sharpened a few, when I was in a pinch, on a black hard Arkansas
stone. It works pretty well.

--
Ed Huntress

Mark Rand
RTFM
Geeze, how many people here have diabetes? Show of hands?

Mark and I are unusual in that we're both Type 1's -- juvenile diabetics.
Roughly 90% of diabetics are Type 2's. They're the adult-onset type that's
associated with age, obesity, etc. Type 1's are the ones that usually get it
in childhood and are totally insulin-dependent. The condition is an
autoimmune disease, rather than an endocrinal breakdown or overload that
leads to Type 2.

I don't but my brother does (and my mother did as well). Last time I
checked (a couple of months ago), my blood glucose was 85 an hour
after a large-ish meal so for the time being, I appear to have dodged
that bullet.
But back to the matter at hand. How about making a screw-activated
plunger pusher? You'd have some stiction problems in the syringe, but
maybe not too bad.

I don't think that much accuracy is required. Except in the
computer-controlled pumps, no one is trying to dispense fractions of a
unit -- except for babies, and the solution there is to dilute the insulin.
It's typically diluted 10:1 for babies, and it's done by professionals or by
very capable parents of those kids.

Also, Ed, are the cartridges in the pump
refillable?

No. Use once and toss. But they don't come pre-filled. You have to fill them
before using them, but the filling devices are pretty well wrecked from
one-time use.

They're usually operated by a stepper motor driving a
screw, and can deliver pretty small increments.

Right. The resolution on mine is 1/10 unit, and 100 units equal one mL (or
cc; same thing).

It should be pretty
straightforward to concoct a device with a fine-thread screw, maybe
with a 10:1 vernier dial drive for good measure.

Yeah, but it's not really needed. The insulin doses can't be matched to the
need that closely. There's some dithering around the ideal doseage because
there are so many variables involved in determining the insulin requirement
at any given time.

The old glass syringes were very slippery, but I don't know if they
make them in very narrow bores.
If it's too hard to control the movement of a syringe plunger, you
could use a diaphragm instead, which would have pretty close to zero
friction.
Just some random thoughts from a tired former designer of anesthesia
equipment.

Interesting thoughts, but they're a solution for a problem that really isn't
out there.

--
Ed Huntress

Yeah but... When you're upt to your neck in alligators, it's hard to
remember that you came here to drain the swamp.

We weren't talking about dispensing infinitesimal doses of insulin
(and wouldn't it be cool if there was continuous monitoring and
feedback that could take advantage of that precision?). The problem at
hand is dispensing infinitesimal doses of water, for the purpose of
mixing foaming Gorilla Glue.
From Doug's original post (at the top of this thread):

Here's a tougher question:
How would you dispense 1/10 drop of water?

So, in that context, would it be possible to refill an insulin
cartridge and construct a simple dispenser to hold it and apply screw
pressure to the plunger?

RS- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

What about the dang foam? Forget microdrops, I threw that in just in.
Darn, I wish I hadn't. (laughs)

Assuming Gorilla Glue is cheap (but it isn't unless you buy a lot) and
time spent meauring water is not (but it is cheap when you're working
for yourself), how can I match Gorilla Glue to:

metal, wood, plastic, glass, paper, fabric, or stone?

My seven favorite materials. One per day of the week!

Or does Gorilla Glue become useless when mixed with any more water
than a moist surface delivers? In that case, what mixes with water to
make foam?

We could take another tack, also...

Put glue in plastic cup. Put in microwave on top of wet facecloth. Zap
for time x in seconds. Leave in there for time y seconds. Remove glue
perfectly dosed, with humidity this time, and wait time z minutes. x,
y, z, make foam to match the use!

Doug

Hey Doug,

You have not given us any clue as to what you are trying to do, but
have you considered "micro-balloons" available for West System
epoxies, available at many places, but for sure at any marine store.
They would do what is sounds like you want.

See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_microsphere and

http://www.westsystem.com/ss/

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.

ps...you might try asking for just a 1/2 cupful at any marine hull
repair place, just to try a bit.