Hi all,

In researching mills, I'm stuck between the possible need for a larger mill
and the convenience/size of a mini mill. I realize that I'll have to stay
within the limitations of a mini mill, but despite my searching the NG, I
can't find any post that quantifies the limitations. IOW, is it possible to
say that for a certain mini mill that one will only be able to work on a
piece so big or take cuts so deep? Or are the capabilities entirely
dependant on what you're trying to do to the specific piece and type of
metal?

Obviously, I'm new to this and have a bunch of books coming. I'm just
trying to decide if I can get by with a mini mill or if I need to buy an
RF-30 machine. I have a very small garage into which this stuff will have
to fit, along with the car du jour.

I'd like to make pieces for automotive and motorcycle projects (brackets,
pillow blocks, component mounts,etc..) mostly out of aluminum but some out
of steel. Most of these pieces would FIT on a mini mill table but I'm
getting the feeling that the mill might be out matched. Are there any
general rules of thumb that suggest the maximum size (% of table, % of X,Y,X
travel, HP x phase of the moon?) or capabilities of a mill?

Thanks,

Peter

I've been looking for a while too. One of the biggest boo-boos I've seen
with mini mills is that they usually have a round column. That coupled with
the short quill stroke makes it difficult to go from a spotting drill to a
jobber length drill. Look for one with the table dove-tailed into the column
or a square column so that the table can be raised or lowered without
turning. gl, John

"Peter Grey" wrote in message
nk.net...
Hi all,

In researching mills, I'm stuck between the possible need for a larger
mill
and the convenience/size of a mini mill. I realize that I'll have to stay
within the limitations of a mini mill, but despite my searching the NG, I
can't find any post that quantifies the limitations. IOW, is it possible
to
say that for a certain mini mill that one will only be able to work on a
piece so big or take cuts so deep? Or are the capabilities entirely
dependant on what you're trying to do to the specific piece and type of
metal?

Obviously, I'm new to this and have a bunch of books coming. I'm just
trying to decide if I can get by with a mini mill or if I need to buy an
RF-30 machine. I have a very small garage into which this stuff will have
to fit, along with the car du jour.

I'd like to make pieces for automotive and motorcycle projects (brackets,
pillow blocks, component mounts,etc..) mostly out of aluminum but some out
of steel. Most of these pieces would FIT on a mini mill table but I'm
getting the feeling that the mill might be out matched. Are there any
general rules of thumb that suggest the maximum size (% of table, % of
X,Y,X
travel, HP x phase of the moon?) or capabilities of a mill?

Thanks,

Peter

Peter Grey wrote:
Hi all,

In researching mills, I'm stuck between the possible need for a larger mill
and the convenience/size of a mini mill.

I've got a mini-mill, the one that sells for $499 or so. I use it
mostly for CNC demos. It has a 4" Y-axis travel. That is most
likely the biggest limitation. Other than that, it has plastic
gears in the head, and is awfully flexible for a machine tool.
Mechanical flex, I mean, and that is not good!

Jon

I'm in the same boat, made worse by just having sold my Van Norman #12
before moving. I don't have room for a full sized mill.

I've had a mill-drill and wouldn't do it again. The round column
(inability to change height without losing your position) and the lack
of rigidity are real problems. I'm also suspicious that the screws don't
wear well (mine was used and worn). I'm looking at a Clausing 8520 or a
Millrite (used).

You might try digging around in the Yahoo groups and see what they talk
about. Here's the one for Clausing:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/clausi...1?viscount=100
There is probably one for Millrite, I don't know about Rong Fu. Another
useful site:
http://www.lathes.co.uk/
has decent descriptions of many machines.

Steve Smith

Peter Grey wrote:

Hi all,

In researching mills, I'm stuck between the possible need for a larger mill
and the convenience/size of a mini mill. I realize that I'll have to stay
within the limitations of a mini mill, but despite my searching the NG, I
can't find any post that quantifies the limitations. IOW, is it possible to
say that for a certain mini mill that one will only be able to work on a
piece so big or take cuts so deep? Or are the capabilities entirely
dependant on what you're trying to do to the specific piece and type of
metal?

Obviously, I'm new to this and have a bunch of books coming. I'm just
trying to decide if I can get by with a mini mill or if I need to buy an
RF-30 machine. I have a very small garage into which this stuff will have
to fit, along with the car du jour.

I'd like to make pieces for automotive and motorcycle projects (brackets,
pillow blocks, component mounts,etc..) mostly out of aluminum but some out
of steel. Most of these pieces would FIT on a mini mill table but I'm
getting the feeling that the mill might be out matched. Are there any
general rules of thumb that suggest the maximum size (% of table, % of X,Y,X
travel, HP x phase of the moon?) or capabilities of a mill?

Thanks,

Peter

"Peter Grey" wrote in message
nk.net...
snip----
I'd like to make pieces for automotive and motorcycle projects (brackets,
pillow blocks, component mounts,etc..) mostly out of aluminum but some out
of steel. Most of these pieces would FIT on a mini mill table but I'm
getting the feeling that the mill might be out matched. Are there any
general rules of thumb that suggest the maximum size (% of table, % of
X,Y,X
travel, HP x phase of the moon?) or capabilities of a mill?

Thanks,

Peter

My personal opinion is to stay away from miniature machines for projects the
likes of yours. I'd also avoid, like the plague, mill drills, unless you
budget simply can't stand the cost of something better. It's RARE to find
someone that is satisfied with a mill drill if they're using it as a milling
machine, not a drill press.

There are small knee type mills available, which would be a far better
choice, based on your suggested usage. Gorton, for one, made some that
are small enough that you sit to run them, and Gorton is an outstanding
builder of drop spindle type mills. I'd recommend one of their machines
highly. There are others, too, of varying sizes, so I'd suggest you keep
your eyes open for a "deal"and buy something that is much better suited to
your needs. If space allows, though, I think a Bridgeport or Bridgeport
clone might be a fine choice due to the flexibility of the machine. For
the most part, no other type vertical mill offers all the features that they
do in one machine.
That's why Bridgeport was such a grand success, along with the cost, which
used to be very reasonable.

A friend of mind has a mini-mill, CNC controlled. He's very happy with it,
but he's machining wax to make patterns for investment casting. The
rigidity of his machine would fall short, VERY short, of enough for
satisfactory machining of most any metal. In machines tools, rigidity is
everything. That's why they weigh so much.

Harold

On Sat, 8 Nov 2003 11:51:49 -0800, "Harold & Susan Vordos"
wrote:

My personal opinion is to stay away from miniature machines for projects the
likes of yours. I'd also avoid, like the plague, mill drills, unless you
budget simply can't stand the cost of something better. It's RARE to find
someone that is satisfied with a mill drill if they're using it as a milling
machine, not a drill press.

(puts hand up -- me me ! :-)

I've had an RF30 for about four years now and it's served me well.

True, it's got limitations compared to a knee mill but I've done an
awful lot of work on it and it has done everything I have asked of it
(bearing in mind that I am aware of its limitations).

For me the choice was to buy an RF30 and have enough money left over
to get some decent tooling, (rotary table, vice, clamping set,
collets, flycutter, boring head, inserts, milling cutters, etc, etc)
-- or to buy a knee mill and just spend my days looking at it and
wishing I had all the accessories needed to use it.

One should always remember that unless you're planning to use your
mill for production work or your income depends on it -- *any* mill is
better than no mill :-)

You can always sell a mill-drill later and upgrade to a *real* mill if
you want/need/can-afford to -- and then all that tooling and other
bits you bought can still be used.

--
you can contact me via http://aardvark.co.nz/contact/

I agree. I could spend a year looking for the "right" mill and not be able
to do anything in the meantime. If I buy an RF30 or mini mill or whatever,
I'll have the opportunity to make some stuff, experiment, and then buy
something better if I determine it's what I need. In the meantime I will
have learned a lot about machining and about what I prefer and want.

I understand that drill/mills aren't perfect, but there seem to be too many
people on the web that are using the RF30 and its ilk successfully (while
keeping in mind its limitations) to buy into the "mill/drills are useless"
argument.

Thanks,

Peter
"Bruce Simpson" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 8 Nov 2003 11:51:49 -0800, "Harold & Susan Vordos"
wrote:

My personal opinion is to stay away from miniature machines for projects
the
likes of yours. I'd also avoid, like the plague, mill drills, unless
you
budget simply can't stand the cost of something better. It's RARE to
find
someone that is satisfied with a mill drill if they're using it as a
milling
machine, not a drill press.

(puts hand up -- me me ! :-)

I've had an RF30 for about four years now and it's served me well.

True, it's got limitations compared to a knee mill but I've done an
awful lot of work on it and it has done everything I have asked of it
(bearing in mind that I am aware of its limitations).

For me the choice was to buy an RF30 and have enough money left over
to get some decent tooling, (rotary table, vice, clamping set,
collets, flycutter, boring head, inserts, milling cutters, etc, etc)
-- or to buy a knee mill and just spend my days looking at it and
wishing I had all the accessories needed to use it.

One should always remember that unless you're planning to use your
mill for production work or your income depends on it -- *any* mill is
better than no mill :-)

You can always sell a mill-drill later and upgrade to a *real* mill if
you want/need/can-afford to -- and then all that tooling and other
bits you bought can still be used.

--
you can contact me via http://aardvark.co.nz/contact/

"Peter Grey" wrote in message
ink.net...
I agree. I could spend a year looking for the "right" mill and not be
able
to do anything in the meantime. If I buy an RF30 or mini mill or
whatever,
I'll have the opportunity to make some stuff, experiment, and then buy
something better if I determine it's what I need. In the meantime I will
have learned a lot about machining and about what I prefer and want.

I understand that drill/mills aren't perfect, but there seem to be too
many
people on the web that are using the RF30 and its ilk successfully (while
keeping in mind its limitations) to buy into the "mill/drills are useless"
argument.

Thanks,

Peter
"Bruce Simpson" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 8 Nov 2003 11:51:49 -0800, "Harold & Susan Vordos"
wrote:

My personal opinion is to stay away from miniature machines for
projects
the
likes of yours. I'd also avoid, like the plague, mill drills, unless
you
budget simply can't stand the cost of something better. It's RARE to
find
someone that is satisfied with a mill drill if they're using it as a
milling
machine, not a drill press.

(puts hand up -- me me ! :-)

I've had an RF30 for about four years now and it's served me well.

True, it's got limitations compared to a knee mill but I've done an
awful lot of work on it and it has done everything I have asked of it
(bearing in mind that I am aware of its limitations).

For me the choice was to buy an RF30 and have enough money left over
to get some decent tooling, (rotary table, vice, clamping set,
collets, flycutter, boring head, inserts, milling cutters, etc, etc)
-- or to buy a knee mill and just spend my days looking at it and
wishing I had all the accessories needed to use it.

One should always remember that unless you're planning to use your
mill for production work or your income depends on it -- *any* mill is
better than no mill :-)

You can always sell a mill-drill later and upgrade to a *real* mill if
you want/need/can-afford to -- and then all that tooling and other
bits you bought can still be used.

--
you can contact me via http://aardvark.co.nz/contact/

I agree in principle with each of you, but practical experience is a great
teacher. One of the hard lessons learned in life is buying something that
is ill suited to a job, then trying to liquidate it in order to replace it
with a tool that is better suited. The better investment would have been
the proper tool to do the job at the outset. Often times the money is gone
and the tool simply can't do the job at hand, and has poor resale value, if
it can be sold at all.

My point is that if a person buys a mini-mill, it is woefully underpowered
and, in general, not really equipped to make parts, regardless of the fact
that they can be placed on the machine table. For example, how about
drilling a ½" or larger hole in steel? Seems like that would be one of the
things Peter would encounter in his quest to build his projects.

When it comes to a mill drill, I recognize that they are better than
nothing, but they are, at best, a poor compromise for a reasonable milling
machine. The problems with mill drills have been well addressed, and
addressing them yet again in this thread serves little to no purpose.
Resale value isn't great, but then buying new is not all that expensive,
either. I accept that fact that for those that are limited economically,
and perhaps have no prospects of anything better in the future, they are
better than nothing.

Regards the argument about being satisfied with one, one of my friends, a
retired tool and die maker, owns one, and built his 1½" scale model steam
locomotive with it, along with countless other projects. He's a patient
person, willing to make the necessary sacrifices in order to achieve the end
result. I respect him for that, but my time is far too valuable to spend
it spinning my wheels endlessly, and achieving a less than acceptable end
result because the machine simply doesn't have the necessary quality built
into it. I guess it all depends on the nature of the work you intend to
do, and the quality level that you find acceptable.

I used my Bridgeport for gain, mostly building tooling for the aero-space
industry. I consider it the absolute minimum machine one could own and get
reasonable results. I do not look at the Bridgeport as a great machine,
but, like in your case, it was the minimum I found acceptable in order to
accomplish my mission. No way in hell could I have done my work with a
mill drill. Maybe now that I'm no longer working for gain I might see it
differently, but I still have the Bridgeport and wouldn't give the idea a
second thought as long as I do. I still do not recommend mill drills, and
for many reasons.

Harold

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

I agree in principle with each of you, but practical experience is a great
teacher. One of the hard lessons learned in life is buying something
that
is ill suited to a job, then trying to liquidate it in order to replace it
with a tool that is better suited. The better investment would have been
the proper tool to do the job at the outset. Often times the money is
gone
and the tool simply can't do the job at hand, and has poor resale value,
if
it can be sold at all.

A better financial investment perhaps, but I'm not concerned enough to have
this be the only consideration. If I have to sell the mill/drill if I find
something better, I will. I don't mind spending the time required in order
to educate myself about which small used higher-quality machine will work,
is in my price range, is truly small enough and is being sold by a source
that I trust or is close enough so that I can look at the machine. While
I'm doing that, I can be making things (or trying to) and learning on an
RF30, which is a known entity.

My point is that if a person buys a mini-mill, it is woefully underpowered
and, in general, not really equipped to make parts, regardless of the fact
that they can be placed on the machine table. For example, how about
drilling a ½" or larger hole in steel? Seems like that would be one of
the
things Peter would encounter in his quest to build his projects.

I've come to the same conclusion.

When it comes to a mill drill, I recognize that they are better than
nothing, but they are, at best, a poor compromise for a reasonable milling
machine. The problems with mill drills have been well addressed, and
addressing them yet again in this thread serves little to no purpose.
Resale value isn't great, but then buying new is not all that expensive,
either. I accept that fact that for those that are limited economically,
and perhaps have no prospects of anything better in the future, they are
better than nothing.

It's not a matter of being limited economically with no prospects of
anything better (Jeez, that sounds depressing). I'm trying to find a
reasonable entry point into this "hobby". I've been heavily involved with -
and taught - bicycle racing, music, car racing and other things that require
equipment. I didn't buy the "best" equipment when I got into them because I
didn't know if I needed it, and what my level of long term interest and
competancy was going to be. I believe that there is a point of diminishing
returns for most things. I'm not yet convinced that for my needs, the
Bridgeport is the point of diminishing return.

I'm a jazz musician and there a ton of players that believe that one needs a
$8,000 guitar in order to make good music. My 30 year old $1,500 guitar
feels and sounds like a $8,000 guitar, but I wouldn't have recognized this
guitar had I not owned and played a lot of other guitars. Those guitars
weren't what I wanted ultimately, but I learned a ton by playing them. I'm
sure that the equivilent of my guitar exists in the mill world. But I don't
yet know enough to recognize the used mill I need when I see it. Maybe
after hacking around on an RF30 for a year or so, I will. Or I may be
satisfied with what I have. BTW, I've got a bunch of guitars, all with
different purposes. You can never have too many - it's just like machine
tools.


I used my Bridgeport for gain, mostly building tooling for the aero-space
industry. I consider it the absolute minimum machine one could own and
get
reasonable results. I do not look at the Bridgeport as a great machine,
but, like in your case, it was the minimum I found acceptable in order to
accomplish my mission. No way in hell could I have done my work with a
mill drill. Maybe now that I'm no longer working for gain I might see it
differently, but I still have the Bridgeport and wouldn't give the idea a
second thought as long as I do. I still do not recommend mill drills,
and
for many reasons.

I'm not going to be making my living at this and I don't think I can fit a
Bridgeport in my garage. I live in San Francisco and my house was built 90
years ago. Garages just weren't a priority. There may very well be a small
Bridgeport or other high quality mill in my future. Using an RF 30 will
play an important role in learning enough to make an intelligent choice on
the "point of diminishing return" machine - assuming that for me the RF30
isn't it.

Regards,

Peter

In article et, Peter Grey
says...

I'm a jazz musician and there a ton of players that believe that one needs a
$8,000 guitar in order to make good music. My 30 year old $1,500 guitar
feels and sounds like a $8,000 guitar, but I wouldn't have recognized this
guitar had I not owned and played a lot of other guitars. Those guitars
weren't what I wanted ultimately, but I learned a ton by playing them. I'm
sure that the equivilent of my guitar exists in the mill world.

What you want is a solid mill, inexpensive, that fits into a small
shop - with a small footprint and low overhead. Bounus points
for high quality and a 'name.'

I would suggest what I chose for a similar application:

http://www.metalworking.com/RCM-gallery/files/Rozen,Jim/Nshop2.jpg
http://www.metalworking.com/RCM-gallery/files/Rozen,Jim/Nshop3.jpg

This machine looks like hell but it just won't quit cutting metal.
Total cost from a used machinery dealer was $800 about ten years
ago. It had been pretty well abused and I had to replace the
handwheels, and make a new feed nut for the table. But after
cleaning it up it's been a strong worker in my shop and does not
require much attention at all.

The latest chip-fest involved making a specialized puller
for removing a timing gear from a vintage motorcycle crank.
The correct puller would cost about a bazillion dollars if
one could find one for sale, and they're not for sale. So
I had to take some chunks-O-steel and build two blocks that
would get under the gear, in the limited space. Then I had
to drill mating holes in a steel ring to hold them, and
allow a puller to grab. The thing worked first time, and
it was all hogged out, rough and ready, on the horizontal.
The limiting factor was how tightly the small vise would
hold the parts - early on in the project I realized that
a part rip-out was entirely possible.

You can find machines like this, in much better condition
than the one I bought (I have a soft spot for 'wing-down'
stuff) for a bit more money. Watch on ebay and you do
sometimes see them go by.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On Sat, 8 Nov 2003 16:55:00 -0800, "Harold & Susan Vordos"
wrote:

I agree in principle with each of you, but practical experience is a great
teacher. One of the hard lessons learned in life is buying something that
is ill suited to a job, then trying to liquidate it in order to replace it
with a tool that is better suited. The better investment would have been
the proper tool to do the job at the outset. Often times the money is gone
and the tool simply can't do the job at hand, and has poor resale value, if
it can be sold at all.

Is this a good or a bad thing? Is the bottle half full or half empty?

if the resale value is so poor then it stands to reason that you can
pick one up second hand at a very attractive price -- and as long as
you look after it, there's no reason why you can't recoup most of that
money when you on-sell it later.


--
you can contact me via http://aardvark.co.nz/contact/

On 8 Nov 2003 20:07:33 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

http://www.metalworking.com/RCM-gallery/files/Rozen,Jim/Nshop2.jpg
http://www.metalworking.com/RCM-gallery/files/Rozen,Jim/Nshop3.jpg

This machine looks like hell but it just won't quit cutting metal.


Jim, do you happen to have a parts break down for that Hardinge Tm? I
have most of what I think is a UM sitting in my trailer at the
moment..it followed me home last night...

I have the mill, no power feed stuff, the table, one hand wheel, no
lead screw and the brackets are missing along with the bearings on the
side to side axis.

Once again..someone took something apart to clean and paint..and lost
parts, then lost interest. Its damned nice looking now..with a sorta
tourqoise paint job..but incomplete.

Id like to complete it, but need a blowup diagram to see whats
missing. These mills are about the only Hardinge machines I dont have
manuals or access to manuals for.

Gunner



"By calling attention to 'a well regulated militia', the 'security' of the
nation, and the right of each citizen 'to keep and bear arms', our founding
fathers recognized the essentially civilian nature of our economy. Although
it is extremely unlikely that the fears of governmental tyranny which gave
rise to the Second Amendment will ever be a major danger to our nation, the
Amendment still remains an important declaration of our basic
civilian-military relationships, in which every citizen must be ready to
participate in the defense of his country. For that reason, I believe the
Second Amendment will always be important."
-- Senator John F. Kennedy, (D) 1960

This is a horizontal mill, yes? My understanding was that they're not as
versatile as a vertical mill...?

Maybe I should try to find a used machine tools dealer in my area.

Peter
"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article et, Peter
Grey
says...

I'm a jazz musician and there a ton of players that believe that one
needs a
$8,000 guitar in order to make good music. My 30 year old $1,500 guitar
feels and sounds like a $8,000 guitar, but I wouldn't have recognized
this
guitar had I not owned and played a lot of other guitars. Those guitars
weren't what I wanted ultimately, but I learned a ton by playing them.
I'm
sure that the equivilent of my guitar exists in the mill world.

What you want is a solid mill, inexpensive, that fits into a small
shop - with a small footprint and low overhead. Bounus points
for high quality and a 'name.'

I would suggest what I chose for a similar application:

http://www.metalworking.com/RCM-gallery/files/Rozen,Jim/Nshop2.jpg
http://www.metalworking.com/RCM-gallery/files/Rozen,Jim/Nshop3.jpg

This machine looks like hell but it just won't quit cutting metal.
Total cost from a used machinery dealer was $800 about ten years
ago. It had been pretty well abused and I had to replace the
handwheels, and make a new feed nut for the table. But after
cleaning it up it's been a strong worker in my shop and does not
require much attention at all.

The latest chip-fest involved making a specialized puller
for removing a timing gear from a vintage motorcycle crank.
The correct puller would cost about a bazillion dollars if
one could find one for sale, and they're not for sale. So
I had to take some chunks-O-steel and build two blocks that
would get under the gear, in the limited space. Then I had
to drill mating holes in a steel ring to hold them, and
allow a puller to grab. The thing worked first time, and
it was all hogged out, rough and ready, on the horizontal.
The limiting factor was how tightly the small vise would
hold the parts - early on in the project I realized that
a part rip-out was entirely possible.

You can find machines like this, in much better condition
than the one I bought (I have a soft spot for 'wing-down'
stuff) for a bit more money. Watch on ebay and you do
sometimes see them go by.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 05:48:07 GMT, "Peter Grey"
wrote:

This is a horizontal mill, yes? My understanding was that they're not as
versatile as a vertical mill...?

Maybe I should try to find a used machine tools dealer in my area.

Peter

Horizontal mills are as versatile as vertical mills, but are more
difficult to do some things with. On the other hand, they do some
things better than vertical mills.

Depending on your application, they both have strengths and
weaknesses. I have two verts and one horizontal, and find myself
using the horizontal more often than the two verts combined, some
months, and visa versa in others.

I also use the heck out of a shaper.

Gunner



"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article et, Peter
Grey
says...

I'm a jazz musician and there a ton of players that believe that one
needs a
$8,000 guitar in order to make good music. My 30 year old $1,500 guitar
feels and sounds like a $8,000 guitar, but I wouldn't have recognized
this
guitar had I not owned and played a lot of other guitars. Those guitars
weren't what I wanted ultimately, but I learned a ton by playing them.
I'm
sure that the equivilent of my guitar exists in the mill world.

What you want is a solid mill, inexpensive, that fits into a small
shop - with a small footprint and low overhead. Bounus points
for high quality and a 'name.'

I would suggest what I chose for a similar application:

http://www.metalworking.com/RCM-gallery/files/Rozen,Jim/Nshop2.jpg
http://www.metalworking.com/RCM-gallery/files/Rozen,Jim/Nshop3.jpg

This machine looks like hell but it just won't quit cutting metal.
Total cost from a used machinery dealer was $800 about ten years
ago. It had been pretty well abused and I had to replace the
handwheels, and make a new feed nut for the table. But after
cleaning it up it's been a strong worker in my shop and does not
require much attention at all.

The latest chip-fest involved making a specialized puller
for removing a timing gear from a vintage motorcycle crank.
The correct puller would cost about a bazillion dollars if
one could find one for sale, and they're not for sale. So
I had to take some chunks-O-steel and build two blocks that
would get under the gear, in the limited space. Then I had
to drill mating holes in a steel ring to hold them, and
allow a puller to grab. The thing worked first time, and
it was all hogged out, rough and ready, on the horizontal.
The limiting factor was how tightly the small vise would
hold the parts - early on in the project I realized that
a part rip-out was entirely possible.

You can find machines like this, in much better condition
than the one I bought (I have a soft spot for 'wing-down'
stuff) for a bit more money. Watch on ebay and you do
sometimes see them go by.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================





"By calling attention to 'a well regulated militia', the 'security' of the
nation, and the right of each citizen 'to keep and bear arms', our founding
fathers recognized the essentially civilian nature of our economy. Although
it is extremely unlikely that the fears of governmental tyranny which gave
rise to the Second Amendment will ever be a major danger to our nation, the
Amendment still remains an important declaration of our basic
civilian-military relationships, in which every citizen must be ready to
participate in the defense of his country. For that reason, I believe the
Second Amendment will always be important."
-- Senator John F. Kennedy, (D) 1960

You might consider a small industrial m/c such as the Centec. The model 2B
with a vertical head is about the same size as a standard mill/drill on a
stand - its essentially a horizontal mill, but Centec made a very fine
vertical head for it that converts it into a vertical knee mill. It also has
power feed to the table. They are usually available for just a little more
than a basic RF-30 without a stand - add a stand and power feed and the
Centec wins. I have two friends - one has a Centec 2B and the other has an
RF-30. I've used them both and, for me, there is no contest.

--
Regards, Gary Wooding

(Change feet to foot to reply)

"Peter Grey" wrote in message
nk.net...
Hi all,

In researching mills, I'm stuck between the possible need for a larger
mill
and the convenience/size of a mini mill. I realize that I'll have to stay
within the limitations of a mini mill, but despite my searching the NG, I
can't find any post that quantifies the limitations. IOW, is it possible
to
say that for a certain mini mill that one will only be able to work on a
piece so big or take cuts so deep? Or are the capabilities entirely
dependant on what you're trying to do to the specific piece and type of
metal?

Obviously, I'm new to this and have a bunch of books coming. I'm just
trying to decide if I can get by with a mini mill or if I need to buy an
RF-30 machine. I have a very small garage into which this stuff will have
to fit, along with the car du jour.

I'd like to make pieces for automotive and motorcycle projects (brackets,
pillow blocks, component mounts,etc..) mostly out of aluminum but some out
of steel. Most of these pieces would FIT on a mini mill table but I'm
getting the feeling that the mill might be out matched. Are there any
general rules of thumb that suggest the maximum size (% of table, % of
X,Y,X
travel, HP x phase of the moon?) or capabilities of a mill?

Thanks,

Peter

"Peter Grey" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

I agree in principle with each of you, but practical experience is a
great
teacher. One of the hard lessons learned in life is buying something
that
is ill suited to a job, then trying to liquidate it in order to replace
it
with a tool that is better suited. The better investment would have
been
the proper tool to do the job at the outset. Often times the money is
gone
and the tool simply can't do the job at hand, and has poor resale value,
if
it can be sold at all.

A better financial investment perhaps, but I'm not concerned enough to
have
this be the only consideration. If I have to sell the mill/drill if I
find
something better, I will. I don't mind spending the time required in
order
to educate myself about which small used higher-quality machine will work,
is in my price range, is truly small enough and is being sold by a source
that I trust or is close enough so that I can look at the machine. While
I'm doing that, I can be making things (or trying to) and learning on an
RF30, which is a known entity.

Understood. The only fly in the ointment is that what you'll be learning
is how to wrestle with a given machine, with little to no idea of how good
or bad it is as it compares to other types of machines. Don't get me
wrong, I'm not saying that mill drills have no place, but they don't in my
life. I have as much experience with mills as you do with guitars.
Bottom line here is when you get more experience, one of the things you'll
regret is buying a machine without a knee, assuming you'll find yourself
involved in making something that requires various cutting tools and
precision locating of holes and related features. That, of course, is a
matter of how you learn to work. If you're a layout man, do everything by
scratching lines and center popping every hole, it likely makes no
difference. Personally, I can't remember the last time I made any kind of
layout for drilling, and my machine shop toolbox doesn't have a center punch
in it. There are far better ways to do work, so as a result I don't go that
route. By the way, using a DRO isn't how I go about my work. I trust my
dials, but then I've done that since the mid 50's and it's something I'm
comfortable with. It's all a matter of training and learned habits.

It's not a matter of being limited economically with no prospects of
anything better (Jeez, that sounds depressing).

Yeah, it does, but that's the real world for some folks. There are those
that would give anything to own even a mill drill.

I'm trying to find a
reasonable entry point into this "hobby". I've been heavily involved
with -
and taught - bicycle racing, music, car racing and other things that
require
equipment. I didn't buy the "best" equipment when I got into them because
I
didn't know if I needed it, and what my level of long term interest and
competancy was going to be. I believe that there is a point of
diminishing
returns for most things. I'm not yet convinced that for my needs, the
Bridgeport is the point of diminishing return.

Note that I did NOT recommend a Bridgeport, I simply stated that a
Bridgeport was the minimum level of acceptance for me considering the nature
of the work that would be received. I didn't go into my shop blindly, I
already knew that I would be doing tooling and product for the aero-space
industry.

I'm a jazz musician and there a ton of players that believe that one needs
a
$8,000 guitar in order to make good music. My 30 year old $1,500 guitar
feels and sounds like a $8,000 guitar, but I wouldn't have recognized this
guitar had I not owned and played a lot of other guitars. Those guitars
weren't what I wanted ultimately, but I learned a ton by playing them.
I'm
sure that the equivilent of my guitar exists in the mill world.

Yep, and that's my point. I noticed you weren't talking about a guitar
from Sears, and that's the equivalent of a mill drill.

How much do you suppose Wes Montgomery paid for his? I understand, as a
novice, where you're coming from considering my love for stereo equipment,
and my main listening pleasure, jazz

But I don't
yet know enough to recognize the used mill I need when I see it. Maybe
after hacking around on an RF30 for a year or so, I will. Or I may be
satisfied with what I have. BTW, I've got a bunch of guitars, all with
different purposes. You can never have too many - it's just like machine
tools.

I'm not going to be making my living at this and I don't think I can fit a
Bridgeport in my garage. I live in San Francisco and my house was built
90
years ago. Garages just weren't a priority. There may very well be a
small
Bridgeport or other high quality mill in my future. Using an RF 30 will
play an important role in learning enough to make an intelligent choice on
the "point of diminishing return" machine - assuming that for me the RF30
isn't it.

Regards,

Peter

Based on your description, you may be locked in to buying something less
than a Bridgeport TYPE of mill (drop spindle), I agree. Still, you have
options that would be a better choice, but those are decisions you must
make, not me. That's why I said what I did, giving you a view of an opinion
from someone that may see mill drills slightly differently from a guy that
has one but has never owned anything else. Ask a guy that has an
underpowered car if he's happy with it and he's likely to tell you he is,
until he's driven one with more power, anyway. And so it is with machining
features, whereby running a machine becomes less of a hassle by adding
particular features, one of which is a knee. Again, the call is yours.
Understand, though, that learning to run a mill drill will not be the same
as learning to run other machines, just as running bench top machines does
not equate to running larger machines. You will go through a learning
curve with each upgrade, but at least you'll have been making chips in the
interim, I agree.

I wish you luck with your choice, and would be interested in hearing what
you end up with.

Harold

On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 05:44:20 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On 8 Nov 2003 20:07:33 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

http://www.metalworking.com/RCM-gallery/files/Rozen,Jim/Nshop2.jpg
http://www.metalworking.com/RCM-gallery/files/Rozen,Jim/Nshop3.jpg

This machine looks like hell but it just won't quit cutting metal.


Jim, do you happen to have a parts break down for that Hardinge Tm? I
have most of what I think is a UM sitting in my trailer at the
moment..it followed me home last night...

I have the mill, no power feed stuff, the table, one hand wheel, no
lead screw and the brackets are missing along with the bearings on the
side to side axis.

Once again..someone took something apart to clean and paint..and lost
parts, then lost interest. Its damned nice looking now..with a sorta
tourqoise paint job..but incomplete.

Id like to complete it, but need a blowup diagram to see whats
missing. These mills are about the only Hardinge machines I dont have
manuals or access to manuals for.

Gunner

Gunner, check the Hardinge-Mill Yahoo group. There's one in the files
section.

Pete Keillor

In article , Gunner says...

Jim, do you happen to have a parts break down for that Hardinge Tm? I
have most of what I think is a UM sitting in my trailer at the
moment..it followed me home last night...

I hate when that happens. Well, OK. Not me. *She* hates
it....

I have the mill, no power feed stuff, the table, one hand wheel, no
lead screw and the brackets are missing along with the bearings on the
side to side axis.

I thought you needed one and got it, a while ago. It will take
me a day or so to copy the one I have (which is actually a
copy that one of the hardinge folks sent me) and I could pass
it along to you.

I think I have your address at work.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

In article , Harold & Susan Vordos says...

Bottom line here is when you get more experience, one of the things you'll
regret is buying a machine without a knee,

Or without a quill, if he buys a horizontal.... :^)

... By the way, using a DRO isn't how I go about my work. I trust my
dials, but then I've done that since the mid 50's and it's something I'm
comfortable with. It's all a matter of training and learned habits.

But Harold, facts are that in many cases a DRO with glass slides
is simply more accurate than the lead screws. Unless the
guy happens to purchase a Moore jig borer or something. When
was the last time you really *checked* your lead screws for
errors?

... I noticed you weren't talking about a guitar
from Sears, and that's the equivalent of a mill drill.

Hmm. Not Sears. More like Wal-Mart. That's about the
right level.

Based on your description, you may be locked in to buying something less
than a Bridgeport TYPE of mill (drop spindle), I agree. Still, you have
options that would be a better choice, but those are decisions you must
make, not me. That's why I said what I did, giving you a view of an opinion
from someone that may see mill drills slightly differently from a guy that
has one but has never owned anything else. Ask a guy that has an
underpowered car if he's happy with it and he's likely to tell you he is,
until he's driven one with more power, anyway. And so it is with machining
features, whereby running a machine becomes less of a hassle by adding
particular features, one of which is a knee.

I think another analogy which might be appropriate here, is
comparing, say, a milling attachment for a lathe, with a
mill-drill. The guy with only a milling attachment will
be quite envious of the man with the wal-mart mill drill.

Understand, though, that learning to run a mill drill will not be the same
as learning to run other machines, just as running bench top machines does
not equate to running larger machines. You will go through a learning
curve with each upgrade, but at least you'll have been making chips in the
interim, I agree.

Quite true. Each machine teaches new techniques, and has has
its own particular quirks. Some of the stuff is broadly applicable,
like measuring and indicating and edge-finding.

I think that for me at least that machinery is really a target
of opportunity. I would have bought a mill-drill if I had found
one in pieces and could buy it cheap and fix it up, or if it
were othewise 'a deal' in some way. That's how a lot of my
stuff wound up in my shop!

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

In article . net, Peter Grey
says...

This is a horizontal mill, yes? My understanding was that they're not as
versatile as a vertical mill?

Right. The spindle axis is horizontal. The spindle
has no 'quill' which is defined as a movable section
that slides in and out of the casting. Most horizontal
machines (here we are leaving out the aceiras and deckels
because they are basically lear jets) don't have
a quill the way vertical ones do.

Folks use the quill in a bridgeport type machine to
drill, mostly. So it becomes a super-solid drill
press, with really slow back gear speeds - so you
can run honking huge drills in it, with the drill
held in a collet so it won't slip.

In a horizontal, any drilling gets done with the
X (in and out) axis handwheel, so it's a bit cumbersome.
My solution to this is to either a) spot the holes in
the horizontal with a center drill and transfer the
part to my dril press and finish them off there, or
b) simply lay the holes out by hand, centerpunch, and
do the whole job on the drill press, for low accuracy
stuff. The puller I just made had *all* the holes
done right in place on the horizontal, and I was glad
to have the slower speeds available there because it
was a stainless ring I was drilling.

Just about the only time I put the vertical head on this
machine (which in this case is a bridgeport M head,
adapted to it) is when I need to mount a rotary table
on the machine, and machine downwards in towards it.
I have the vertical head, it almost never gets used,
in spite of its having a quill.

Maybe I should try to find a used machine tools dealer in my area.

This could be a good idea. Where are you located?
You should be going to places like this just to see
what they have, what's available. Don't express any
strong interests in any given machine, just see what's
out there. It's kind of like used car shopping.
Sometimes something just jumps right out at you.

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

I did a search for Centec and found a bunch of them... all in the UK. Are
they common/available in the States? Any suggestions about who may carry
them?

Peter

"Wooding" wrote in message
...
You might consider a small industrial m/c such as the Centec. The model 2B
with a vertical head is about the same size as a standard mill/drill on a
stand - its essentially a horizontal mill, but Centec made a very fine
vertical head for it that converts it into a vertical knee mill. It also
has
power feed to the table. They are usually available for just a little more
than a basic RF-30 without a stand - add a stand and power feed and the
Centec wins. I have two friends - one has a Centec 2B and the other has
an
RF-30. I've used them both and, for me, there is no contest.

--
Regards, Gary Wooding

(Change feet to foot to reply)

"Peter Grey" wrote in message
nk.net...
Hi all,

In researching mills, I'm stuck between the possible need for a larger
mill
and the convenience/size of a mini mill. I realize that I'll have to
stay
within the limitations of a mini mill, but despite my searching the NG,
I
can't find any post that quantifies the limitations. IOW, is it
possible
to
say that for a certain mini mill that one will only be able to work on a
piece so big or take cuts so deep? Or are the capabilities entirely
dependant on what you're trying to do to the specific piece and type of
metal?

Obviously, I'm new to this and have a bunch of books coming. I'm just
trying to decide if I can get by with a mini mill or if I need to buy an
RF-30 machine. I have a very small garage into which this stuff will
have
to fit, along with the car du jour.

I'd like to make pieces for automotive and motorcycle projects
(brackets,
pillow blocks, component mounts,etc..) mostly out of aluminum but some
out
of steel. Most of these pieces would FIT on a mini mill table but I'm
getting the feeling that the mill might be out matched. Are there any
general rules of thumb that suggest the maximum size (% of table, % of
X,Y,X
travel, HP x phase of the moon?) or capabilities of a mill?

Thanks,

Peter

I'm in San Francisco. There are some listed in the fone book, but if you
had suggestions or recommendations... I suppose they don't need to be
local - just trusted.

Peter

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...

Maybe I should try to find a used machine tools dealer in my area.

This could be a good idea. Where are you located?
You should be going to places like this just to see
what they have, what's available. Don't express any
strong interests in any given machine, just see what's
out there. It's kind of like used car shopping.
Sometimes something just jumps right out at you.

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

How much do you suppose Wes Montgomery paid for his? I understand, as a
novice, where you're coming from considering my love for stereo equipment,
and my main listening pleasure, jazz

Well, Gibson gave him his last guitar. His first guitar was a cheapy, I
understand. It didn't seem to hinder his ultimate achievements, however.
I'd love to become the Wes Montgomery of machining... or playing guitar, for
that matter!

Peter

In article . net, Peter Grey
says...

I'm in San Francisco. There are some listed in the fone book, but if you
had suggestions or recommendations... I suppose they don't need to be
local - just trusted.

OK we just need some west coast folks to comment here,
I'm in peekskill NY - all of my recommendations would
be for the east coast.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

Gunner,

I have parts breakdown/schematics for what I believe is a Hardinge auto
chucker. Has sections for console, hydraulic, programmer, drive
headstock, carriage, vertical slide, etc. Seems to be everything but the
cover and first couple pages. I have no use for it, maybe you do. Send
your snail addy if you want.

michael

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Harold & Susan Vordos says...

Bottom line here is when you get more experience, one of the things
you'll
regret is buying a machine without a knee,

Or without a quill, if he buys a horizontal.... :^)

... By the way, using a DRO isn't how I go about my work. I trust my
dials, but then I've done that since the mid 50's and it's something I'm
comfortable with. It's all a matter of training and learned habits.

But Harold, facts are that in many cases a DRO with glass slides
is simply more accurate than the lead screws. Unless the
guy happens to purchase a Moore jig borer or something.

Agreed. Not everyone is capable, nor comfortable, with using and trusting
screws, and they are, for sure, not as accurate. All the more reason why
I'm so damned proud of the ability I acquired. We dinosaurs are like
that.

When was the last time you really *checked* your lead screws for errors?

Touché!

Yep, it's been a long time, since I last submitted tooling to Litton (back
in '83), commonly held to a thou or less. Since then, however, my
Bridgeport likely hasn't seen more than 200 hours of use. It's nice to own
a vintage '75 mill that has so few hours on it. No holes in the table,
screws still relatively good.

... I noticed you weren't talking about a guitar
from Sears, and that's the equivalent of a mill drill.

Hmm. Not Sears. More like Wal-Mart. That's about the
right level.

Love it!!

Based on your description, you may be locked in to buying something less
than a Bridgeport TYPE of mill (drop spindle), I agree. Still, you have
options that would be a better choice, but those are decisions you must
make, not me. That's why I said what I did, giving you a view of an
opinion
from someone that may see mill drills slightly differently from a guy
that
has one but has never owned anything else. Ask a guy that has an
underpowered car if he's happy with it and he's likely to tell you he is,
until he's driven one with more power, anyway. And so it is with
machining
features, whereby running a machine becomes less of a hassle by adding
particular features, one of which is a knee.

I think another analogy which might be appropriate here, is
comparing, say, a milling attachment for a lathe, with a
mill-drill. The guy with only a milling attachment will
be quite envious of the man with the wal-mart mill drill.

Understand, though, that learning to run a mill drill will not be the
same
as learning to run other machines, just as running bench top machines
does
not equate to running larger machines. You will go through a learning
curve with each upgrade, but at least you'll have been making chips in
the
interim, I agree.

Quite true. Each machine teaches new techniques, and has has
its own particular quirks. Some of the stuff is broadly applicable,
like measuring and indicating and edge-finding.

I think that for me at least that machinery is really a target
of opportunity. I would have bought a mill-drill if I had found
one in pieces and could buy it cheap and fix it up, or if it
were othewise 'a deal' in some way. That's how a lot of my
stuff wound up in my shop!

Jim

I think that if I found a deal on a mill drill, I'd buy it, too, but only
for use as a heavy drill press. That might take a bit of the load off my
mill, which I use for drilling routinely. I like the advantage of a
permanently affixed vise and screws to locate holes. Again, that's how I
was trained.

Speaking of deals, I always wanted to own a Sunnen hone. I was trained on
a model 1290-D, so when I found one that I could purchase for less than
$300, I did so. It's now something to behold, after a complete teardown
and restoration. Some things seem to follow you home, no matter how much
you resist! g

Harold

"Peter Grey" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

How much do you suppose Wes Montgomery paid for his? I understand, as
a
novice, where you're coming from considering my love for stereo
equipment,
and my main listening pleasure, jazz

Well, Gibson gave him his last guitar. His first guitar was a cheapy, I
understand. It didn't seem to hinder his ultimate achievements, however.
I'd love to become the Wes Montgomery of machining... or playing guitar,
for
that matter!

Peter

Yep, that would be the accomplishment of the century. I love his style.
Too bad his life was cut so short.

What's your style? Jim Hall? Gabor Szabo? Charlie Bird? Herb
Ellis? Joe Pass? Chet Atkins? (I hate country, but loved his style).

Harold

Peter wrote:

"... I'm just trying to decide if I can get by with a mini mill or if I
need to buy an RF-30 machine...."

No one seems to address the mini mill vs. the Drill mill (rf-30)
question.

Never used a RF-30... impressive machine... too big for my shop. But the
round column does not impress me.

The mini-mill (from sieg) does not have a quill. It has a rectangular
cast iron column with dovetail ways for the mill head to slide upon. The
head is raised or lowered as needed. This has the advantage of keeping
horizontal alignment when replacing tools, chucks etc.

The working envelope is around 9 x 4 inches. All cast iron construction.
The spindle speed is variable between 0 and 2500 rpm.

I like my mini-mill. Of course, my opinion is colored by someone who did
his milling on a drill press before I got my mini! 8-)

Leo (pearland, tx)

On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 16:26:25 GMT, "Peter Grey"
wrote:

I'm in San Francisco. There are some listed in the fone book, but if you
had suggestions or recommendations... I suppose they don't need to be
local - just trusted.

Peter

Hell..you are only about 3 hours or so north of me. Im in the
Bakersfield area.

Ive got a nice Index 40 Vertical mill up for sale. 110v, and a hell of
a lot stouter than any mill drill. Good size for the home shop too.

Also got a small horizontal mill. (and lathes etc etc

http://home.lightspeed.net/~gunner/myshop

The site is a bit out of date, and Ill be updating it in the coming
weeks, but the Index is shown.

That would fit right into your average Uhaul trailer and go home with
you quite nicely. Ive got tooling for it and it will be not much more
than a imported mill drill.

Gunner


"jim rozen" wrote in message
...

Maybe I should try to find a used machine tools dealer in my area.

This could be a good idea. Where are you located?
You should be going to places like this just to see
what they have, what's available. Don't express any
strong interests in any given machine, just see what's
out there. It's kind of like used car shopping.
Sometimes something just jumps right out at you.

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================





"By calling attention to 'a well regulated militia', the 'security' of the
nation, and the right of each citizen 'to keep and bear arms', our founding
fathers recognized the essentially civilian nature of our economy. Although
it is extremely unlikely that the fears of governmental tyranny which gave
rise to the Second Amendment will ever be a major danger to our nation, the
Amendment still remains an important declaration of our basic
civilian-military relationships, in which every citizen must be ready to
participate in the defense of his country. For that reason, I believe the
Second Amendment will always be important."
-- Senator John F. Kennedy, (D) 1960

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
Yep, that would be the accomplishment of the century. I love his style.
Too bad his life was cut so short.

What's your style? Jim Hall? Gabor Szabo? Charlie Bird? Herb
Ellis? Joe Pass? Chet Atkins? (I hate country, but loved his style).

I've had people say I sound like Gabor Szabo but I don't hear it. I play
with a fairly bluesy approach, not unlike Kenny Burrell. Jim Hall has been
my biggest influence. Scrapple From The Apple on "Jim Hall Live" still
gives me goose bumps. That's perhaps the best guitar trio album ever
recorded (I know Joe Pass fans will cringe when I say that). Needless to
say, I don't have the ears or skill of any on your list.

I don't know if you're familiar with some recent guitarists... If not, and
have an interest, you might like Peter Bernstein's stuff.

BTW, do you have any suggestions about bench sized used mills I would want
to look for?

Regards,

Peter

In article , Harold & Susan Vordos says...

When was the last time you really *checked* your lead screws for errors?

Touché!

I only mention this, because even though my hardinge horizontal
mill *looks* so pristine (!) I would not want to put its lead
screws to any real test against a length standard. They've
seen so much use that I know they're worn over the long run.
I would dearly love to purchase new lead screws from hardinge
but that's gonna run into big big money.

Speaking of deals, I always wanted to own a Sunnen hone. I was trained on
a model 1290-D, so when I found one that I could purchase for less than
$300, I did so. It's now something to behold, after a complete teardown
and restoration. Some things seem to follow you home, no matter how much
you resist! g

Ah, we used to have a sunnen hone in the model shop at work. That
was back in the days when space there was 'free' and one of the
managers was into restoring old aircraft engines. I took a pair
of bmw cylinders to work, and asked if I could use the sunnen.

The manager there replied that it was a bit tricky to use, but
he would be glad to do them for me one lunch hour. "Just don't
let it get around" he said. I had to sort of wander by around the
time I though he would be doing them, and sure enough, he
was doing the bores right there - and about five other guys
from the shop were standing by, giving him comments and advice!
So much for keeping it quiet.

Those sunnen hones do a lovely job. Aside from a tiny groove
at the top, those jugs were straight and round to within tenths.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 21:00:03 GMT, Gunner wrote:
On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 16:26:25 GMT, "Peter Grey"
wrote:
I'm in San Francisco. There are some listed in the fone book, but if you
had suggestions or recommendations... I suppose they don't need to be
local - just trusted.

Peter

Hell..you are only about 3 hours or so north of me. Im in the
Bakersfield area.

Ive got a nice Index 40 Vertical mill up for sale. 110v, and a hell of
a lot stouter than any mill drill. Good size for the home shop too.

Also got a small horizontal mill. (and lathes etc etc

http://home.lightspeed.net/~gunner/myshop

The site is a bit out of date, and Ill be updating it in the coming
weeks, but the Index is shown.

That would fit right into your average Uhaul trailer and go home with
you quite nicely. Ive got tooling for it and it will be not much more
than a imported mill drill.

There you go, Peter. Wasn't that easy?

Gary

"Peter Grey" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
Yep, that would be the accomplishment of the century. I love his
style.
Too bad his life was cut so short.

What's your style? Jim Hall? Gabor Szabo? Charlie Bird? Herb
Ellis? Joe Pass? Chet Atkins? (I hate country, but loved his style).

I've had people say I sound like Gabor Szabo but I don't hear it. I play
with a fairly bluesy approach, not unlike Kenny Burrell. Jim Hall has
been
my biggest influence. Scrapple From The Apple on "Jim Hall Live" still
gives me goose bumps. That's perhaps the best guitar trio album ever
recorded (I know Joe Pass fans will cringe when I say that). Needless to
say, I don't have the ears or skill of any on your list.

All in good time! None of us start out at the top.

If your style resembles Gabor Szabo, even remotely, you'd be a pleasure!

I'm quite partial to Herb Ellis, especially when combined with Oscar
Peterson and the late Ray Brown. I can really get off on his sound.
Don't know what he does, but you can pick him out of any recording if he's
there.

I don't know if you're familiar with some recent guitarists... If not,
and
have an interest, you might like Peter Bernstein's stuff.

I'm not educated in music, thus I have a difficult time describing what I
hear, so all I can do is make comparisons with those with which I'm
familiar. Peter Bernstein's stuff is not anything to which I've been
exposed, but we listen to two jazz stations here in Western Washington, so
I'll pay particular attention to each of them to see if they play anything
of his.

Susan and I listen to KPLU, which is found on the net. We also listen to
KMHD, which comes to us out of Oregon. We have a large stereo antenna and
get both of them quite well, in spite of the long distance, especially for
KMHD. KMHD is slightly more progressive in their choices, so I expect
it's only a matter of time until they play something of Bernstein's. .
KPLU is rather rigid in their music selection. For example, they do not
play any Chuck Mangione, nor do they ever play any of Herbie Mann's work.
That's certainly unfortunate, for each of them did some remarkable work.
Herbie Mann's Village Gate album has to be one of the better things ever put
on disk.

BTW, do you have any suggestions about bench sized used mills I would want
to look for?

We have drifted a bit, haven't we? I'm not well versed on the smaller
machines, but one of them I mentioned earlier, the Gorton line. Their small
machines are outstanding in quality as made, and would be an excellent
choice. They made various models through the years, the Unimill, sldo one I
believe was named an 0-16A, and perhaps many more. I don't really know, but
I've run the two mentioned and would recommend them highly to anyone
interested. They are not toys, were intended to do serious work with good
results. The Unimill had a tilting head as I recall, but the 0-16A did not.
That would be one negative, but otherwise it's an excellent choice. Nice
thing about it is it's small, and would lend itself to your minimum space
requirements and still do serious work.

I've read with considerable interest of those recommended by others. I
think, unless you intend to buy new, that your best bet is to pursue
anything that shows up until you find something worth having. Gary pointed
out some very good things to watch for. . That way you won't limit
yourself to a given machine, cutting down the odds of finding something that
would make you happy. Use four things as guidelines and you won't be
sorry with your choice, assuming it isn't junk.

1) A knee type mill
2) A "drop spindle" type of machine
3) Power feed on the quill so you can bore successfully
4) A tilting head type of machine, at least one direction, side to side, if
not front to back, too. Not all mills have tilting heads, a Gorton 9-J,
for example. There are others.

By having the four features mentioned above, you should be able to
accomplish pretty much anything you'll encounter. I might add, if you can
justify a larger machine, Bridgeport size, you'll not regret it, but I
understand your space limitations. If nothing else, you need reasonable
head room for those machines.

I have no quarrel with horizontal machines, but doing some things on them is
far more difficult. The best scenario is that you end up with one of each
type machine if you stay in the hobby.

Good luck!

Harold

On Sun, 9 Nov 2003 14:58:16 -0600 (CST), (Leo Reed) wrote:
No one seems to address the mini mill vs. the Drill mill (rf-30)
question.

Never used a RF-30... impressive machine... too big for my shop. But the
round column does not impress me.

You're right not to be impressed by the round column. You do lose
your zero when you raise or lower the head. But that 2 hp head does
have some grunt. It'll take cuts that would destroy the mini-mill. The
work envelope is much larger too.

Since I got my big knee mill, my RF-30 is mostly used as a heavy
drill press. But before that it was my main mill, and I cut a lot of
metal with it. It is capable of good work, once you learn how to
work around its ideosyncracies.

Gary

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...


Susan and I listen to KPLU, which is found on the net. We also listen to
KMHD, which comes to us out of Oregon. We have a large stereo antenna
and
get both of them quite well, in spite of the long distance, especially for
KMHD. KMHD is slightly more progressive in their choices, so I expect
it's only a matter of time until they play something of Bernstein's. .
KPLU is rather rigid in their music selection.

Berstein's playing isn't all that progressive. He sounds much like a modern
Kenny Burrell and thought you might like him because he's got new school
ears with old school sensibilities.

Our local station is KCSM and other than Clifford Brown Jr's announcing, is
very good. You can pick it up on the net at
http://www.kcsm.org/jazz91.html.

Thanks for your help.

Peter

On Sun, 9 Nov 2003 12:23:54 -0800, "Harold & Susan Vordos"
wrote:


Speaking of deals, I always wanted to own a Sunnen hone. I was trained on
a model 1290-D, so when I found one that I could purchase for less than
$300, I did so. It's now something to behold, after a complete teardown
and restoration. Some things seem to follow you home, no matter how much
you resist! g

Harold

Anyone need another Sunnen Hone? I have one.

Gunner




"By calling attention to 'a well regulated militia', the 'security' of the
nation, and the right of each citizen 'to keep and bear arms', our founding
fathers recognized the essentially civilian nature of our economy. Although
it is extremely unlikely that the fears of governmental tyranny which gave
rise to the Second Amendment will ever be a major danger to our nation, the
Amendment still remains an important declaration of our basic
civilian-military relationships, in which every citizen must be ready to
participate in the defense of his country. For that reason, I believe the
Second Amendment will always be important."
-- Senator John F. Kennedy, (D) 1960

On Sun, 9 Nov 2003 16:55:09 -0800, "Harold & Susan Vordos"
wrote:

Unimill, sldo one I
believe was named an 0-16A, and perhaps many more. I don't really know, but
I've run the two mentioned and would recommend them highly to anyone
interested. They are not toys, were intended to do serious work with good
results. The Unimill had a tilting head as I recall, but the 0-16A did not.
That would be one negative, but otherwise it's an excellent choice. Nice
thing about it is it's small, and would lend itself to your minimum space
requirements and still do serious work.

While the 0-16A is smaller in height and slightly smaller in footprint
than a BP...it is one heavy heavy old bitch. But yes...thats one hell
of a smaller mill. But its not a benchtop....lol..not at 1900 lbs.
Maximum tool diameter is 1/2", with the collets being a bit dear and
rather rare. If you find one..be sure the collets are there, at least
the common sizes, such as 1/4, 3/8/ 1/2".

Fortunately mine came with a complete set.

Gunner



"By calling attention to 'a well regulated militia', the 'security' of the
nation, and the right of each citizen 'to keep and bear arms', our founding
fathers recognized the essentially civilian nature of our economy. Although
it is extremely unlikely that the fears of governmental tyranny which gave
rise to the Second Amendment will ever be a major danger to our nation, the
Amendment still remains an important declaration of our basic
civilian-military relationships, in which every citizen must be ready to
participate in the defense of his country. For that reason, I believe the
Second Amendment will always be important."
-- Senator John F. Kennedy, (D) 1960

"Peter Grey" wrote in message
ink.net...
I did a search for Centec and found a bunch of them... all in the UK. Are
they common/available in the States? Any suggestions about who may carry
them?

You're right, they were made in UK and, presumably because they are
relatively small (compared with a Bridgeport) , were not very popular in the
States. But they are available from time to time. If you can get one, snap
it up - you will never regret it.

--
Regards, Gary Wooding

(Change feet to foot to reply)

Thanks.

Peter
"Leo Reed" wrote in message
...
Peter wrote:

"... I'm just trying to decide if I can get by with a mini mill or if I
need to buy an RF-30 machine...."

No one seems to address the mini mill vs. the Drill mill (rf-30)
question.

Never used a RF-30... impressive machine... too big for my shop. But the
round column does not impress me.

The mini-mill (from sieg) does not have a quill. It has a rectangular
cast iron column with dovetail ways for the mill head to slide upon. The
head is raised or lowered as needed. This has the advantage of keeping
horizontal alignment when replacing tools, chucks etc.

The working envelope is around 9 x 4 inches. All cast iron construction.
The spindle speed is variable between 0 and 2500 rpm.

I like my mini-mill. Of course, my opinion is colored by someone who did
his milling on a drill press before I got my mini! 8-)

Leo (pearland, tx)

I guess I will add my 2 cents worth.

My EMCO 7 inch lathe with milling column has a round column and it
does not loose zero when raised/lowered. It has a large full length
key attached the column and adjustable gibs in the head. To rotate the
head, the round column is released at the base and the column and head
all are rotated.

However, my Grizzly mill/drill with a round column certainly looses
zero when raised/lowered. The geared key on the column is attached to
the column only at the top and bottom by the wedge shaped ends of the
key. When the head of this machine is rotated, the key also moves
slides around the column.

Potentially, the entire Grizzly column and head could be turned like
the EMCO. I have not tried it. Some while back(years?) there was an
article in a home machinist magazine about screwing the geared key to
the column to minimize the loss of zero when moving thead. I don't
think this would help much bacause there are no gibbs to take up the
remaining slop.

By the way, the problem of spotting drill lenght vs. jobber length
drills was solved when I got several 4-6 inch spotting drills at an
estate sale.

Paul in Redmond, Oregon







Gary Coffman wrote in message . ..
On Sun, 9 Nov 2003 14:58:16 -0600 (CST), (Leo Reed) wrote:
No one seems to address the mini mill vs. the Drill mill (rf-30)
question.

Never used a RF-30... impressive machine... too big for my shop. But the
round column does not impress me.

You're right not to be impressed by the round column. You do lose
your zero when you raise or lower the head. But that 2 hp head does
have some grunt. It'll take cuts that would destroy the mini-mill. The
work envelope is much larger too.

Since I got my big knee mill, my RF-30 is mostly used as a heavy
drill press. But before that it was my main mill, and I cut a lot of
metal with it. It is capable of good work, once you learn how to
work around its ideosyncracies.

Gary