I am starting to plan the power for my new shop which will be 65 feet away
from the house and across the driveway. The shop will run off the 200 Amp
service for the main house. The total cable length from the meter box to a
lug box in the shop will be approximately 120 feet. The first 45 feet will
run through the basement of the house. The rest of the run will be
underground in 2 inch plastic conduit. I plan to run from a 100 Amp breaker
with three 2-0 (00) wires (hot-neutral-hot) and a single #6 for safety
ground (green). I will probably drive a 10 foot ground rod at the shop too.
Note the neutral WILL NOT be connected to the shop ground rod. I found
several nice new, sealed 90' rolls of 2-0 at the reclamation yard for $25
each last year. Regulations in my area are such that I don't have to have
inspections. Does anyone see a problem?
--
Keith Bowers - Thomasville, NC

In my town, they allow a house to have a 200+200 service. I kept the
existing 200A panel and changed the power pole and meter base and
used a 400A box. Then I pulled a 200A panel down to my shop. It's OK
as long as there is an exterior shutoff switch the firemen can access.

Now I have enough power in my shop. I cannot imagine trying to live with
less than 60 amps. Whatever you do, pull yourself a subpanel to your
shop. And get a permit, else if you have a fire your insurance might not
pay.

Grant Erwin
Kirkland, Washington

keith bowers wrote:
I am starting to plan the power for my new shop which will be 65 feet away
from the house and across the driveway. The shop will run off the 200 Amp
service for the main house. The total cable length from the meter box to a
lug box in the shop will be approximately 120 feet. The first 45 feet will
run through the basement of the house. The rest of the run will be
underground in 2 inch plastic conduit. I plan to run from a 100 Amp breaker
with three 2-0 (00) wires (hot-neutral-hot) and a single #6 for safety
ground (green). I will probably drive a 10 foot ground rod at the shop too.
Note the neutral WILL NOT be connected to the shop ground rod. I found
several nice new, sealed 90' rolls of 2-0 at the reclamation yard for $25
each last year. Regulations in my area are such that I don't have to have
inspections. Does anyone see a problem?

On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 19:01:55 -0400, keith bowers
wrote:

I am starting to plan the power for my new shop which will be 65 feet away
from the house and across the driveway. The shop will run off the 200 Amp
service for the main house. The total cable length from the meter box to a
lug box in the shop will be approximately 120 feet. The first 45 feet will
run through the basement of the house. The rest of the run will be
underground in 2 inch plastic conduit. I plan to run from a 100 Amp breaker
with three 2-0 (00) wires (hot-neutral-hot) and a single #6 for safety
ground (green). I will probably drive a 10 foot ground rod at the shop too.
Note the neutral WILL NOT be connected to the shop ground rod. I found
several nice new, sealed 90' rolls of 2-0 at the reclamation yard for $25
each last year. Regulations in my area are such that I don't have to have
inspections. Does anyone see a problem?

Haven't read the NEC lately, but IIRC there is only supposed to be one
ground in a given system.

Something about circulating currents in the ground loop.

Or some such . . .
Cheers,
Fred McClellan
the dash plumber at mindspring dot com

keith bowers wrote in message ...
I am starting to plan the power for my new shop which will be 65 feet away
from the house and across the driveway. The shop will run off the 200 Amp
service for the main house. The total cable length from the meter box to a
lug box in the shop will be approximately 120 feet. The first 45 feet will
run through the basement of the house. The rest of the run will be
underground in 2 inch plastic conduit. I plan to run from a 100 Amp breaker
with three 2-0 (00) wires (hot-neutral-hot) and a single #6 for safety
ground (green). I will probably drive a 10 foot ground rod at the shop too.
Note the neutral WILL NOT be connected to the shop ground rod. I found
several nice new, sealed 90' rolls of 2-0 at the reclamation yard for $25
each last year. Regulations in my area are such that I don't have to have
inspections. Does anyone see a problem?

I am not an electrician but have done a bunch of wiring as recently as
half of today. I see no problem with your plans other then I think you
could bump your amperage up to at least 125 amps and that might be
nice if you intend to put in a "real" welder. Leigh@MarMachine

Note the neutral WILL NOT be connected to the shop ground rod. I found
several nice new, sealed 90' rolls of 2-0 at the reclamation yard for $25
each last year. Regulations in my area are such that I don't have to have
inspections. Does anyone see a problem?

Why not connect the neutral to the shop ground rod?

Just wondering what the reason was...

Justin

Why not connect the neutral to the shop ground rod?

Just wondering what the reason was...


The NEC requires the neutral to be grounded only at the service entrance
panelboard.

Ahh I see...

Humm doesn't make much sence but that's the code then you go with it....

Thanks,

Justin
"Peter H." wrote in message
...


Why not connect the neutral to the shop ground rod?

Just wondering what the reason was...


The NEC requires the neutral to be grounded only at the service entrance
panelboard.

Ahh I see...

Humm doesn't make much sence but that's the code then you go with it....


This avoids "ground loops", and that is important.

"keith bowers" wrote in message
...
I am starting to plan the power for my new shop which will be 65
feet away
from the house and across the driveway. The shop will run off the
200 Amp
service for the main house. The total cable length from the meter
box to a
lug box in the shop will be approximately 120 feet. The first 45
feet will
run through the basement of the house. The rest of the run will be
underground in 2 inch plastic conduit. I plan to run from a 100 Amp
breaker
with three 2-0 (00) wires (hot-neutral-hot) and a single #6 for
safety
ground (green). I will probably drive a 10 foot ground rod at the
shop too.
Note the neutral WILL NOT be connected to the shop ground rod. I
found
several nice new, sealed 90' rolls of 2-0 at the reclamation yard
for $25
each last year. Regulations in my area are such that I don't have to
have
inspections. Does anyone see a problem?

My shop is in the basement, so it is a little easier. However, here
are some things I did which you might consider:

1. Must have a sub-panel with its own main breaker for the shop.
That is, a 100 amp breakers in the house to another pair of 100 amp
breakers in the sub-panel. That way, you have emergency shut-off
from either place and far more convenience in rewiring -- see below.
2. Make the sub-panel big. I put in a twenty-breaker sub-panel. Now
each machine has its own, dedicated line. No sharing of lights and
outlets, etc. It is really nice to not have to worry about overload.

3. Two circuits (110 volts) from the house, directly, without going
through the sub-panel. One #12 for power, the other #14 for lights.
That way, when you put in a new circuit, you shut the house side
breakers, you have a totally dead panel in the shop and you still have
lights and power with which to work.

Boris

--

-------------------------------------
Boris Beizer Ph.D. Seminars and Consulting
1232 Glenbrook Road on Software Testing and
Huntingdon Valley, PA 19006 Quality Assurance

TEL: 215-572-5580
FAX: 215-886-0144
Email

------------------------------------------

Pete wrote:


"keith bowers" wrote in message
...
I am starting to plan the power for my new shop which will be 65 feet
away from the house and across the driveway. The shop will run off the
200 Amp service for the___SNIP

Keith if you are running 2 aught ( represented as 00) that is capable of
190 amps so you are good there however the lugs on a 100amp breaker are
for #2 wire. Tough squeeze for connection to the breaker. If you can get
more service to the house by all means do so. Add the second 200amp
service and dedicate it to your shop. I have just a small two car garage (
more like wife's garage plus my toys ) and the 115vt welder pops any of my
15amp breakers if something else is on at the time. I would run a separate
panel in the garage and direct connect from your meter base to that panel
not from your panel in your house.

Pete
Good points, thank you.
I found four 90' rolls of nice new 00 wire at the scrap yard for $25 each
last year. This gives me the optino of upping the current later if needed.
I will probably do 8" #2 stubs from the breaker to the 00 hots using half
nuts for the connections. If I need additional power later I can add a
second 200 Amp feed. Local electricians tell me the power company doesn't
encourage second meters; don't know why. As for welding that will be from a
tractor-mounted 28 Volt 300 Amp DC generator. Another conduit will have the
emergency generator feed from shop to house, so I will have a way to light
things up while working on the main feeds plus fiber optics. Aonther will
have water and air and phone lines. A fourth will have coax, CAT-5e, and
other control cables.
--
Keith Bowers - Thomasville, NC

Don Murray wrote:

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/pro...mId=1611716981

Thanks for the URL; the block look like just what the doctor ordered.
I'll drop the second ground rod idea unless local code requires it.
--
Keith Bowers - Thomasville, NC

Gary Coffman wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 05:07:09 GMT, "Justin"
wrote:
Note the neutral WILL NOT be connected to the shop ground rod. I
found several nice new, sealed 90' rolls of 2-0 at the reclamation
yard for $25 each last year. Regulations in my area are such that I
don't have to have inspections. Does anyone see a problem?

Why not connect the neutral to the shop ground rod?

Just wondering what the reason was...

The Earth isn't a very good conductor. If you connect to Earth
in two different places, a voltage will exist between the two points
(typically on the order of 25 volts per amp of current in the ground
path). So if you have about 4 amps of fault current, things attached
to one Earthed point will be elevated about 100 volts from the other
Earthed point. That's a potential shock hazard. By connecting to
Earth at only one point, this situation can be avoided.

Gary
In this case it appears that he is connecting the grounding conductor to
the ground rod in the shop, just not bonding it to the neutral. One of the
reasons for this requirement is so that the grounding electrode conductor
does not function as a parallel neutral return or even worse as the main
neutral in case of a lost neutral. This is particularly bad if metallic
conduit is serving as the grounding conductor, because the connections will
get mighty hot with sustained amperage going through them.

WRT to the ground rod controversy, it is very complicated and some of it is
beyond me, but I have seen problems with elevated neutrals connected to
copper plumbing systems serving outdoor spigots. People who used the spigots
while standing on the wet ground with bare feet were getting mild shocks.
There was a small but significant potential difference between ground rods
connected to utility pole neutrals or the service neutral and any driven
ground rod 10' away, which varied continuously and I suspect was related to
voltage drop on the neutral of the somewhat inadequate utility distribution
system. In this case the people were "earthed" with their feet, and at a
lower potential than the service entrance neutral or the copper plumbing
bonded to it.

Speaking of ground rods -
I had a 'little' incident with a tree that resulted in the severing of the
neutral feed (1440 volts) to my house or at least the transformer to my
house (and a couple more) - don't ask!
The tree brushed the hot wire on the way down and popped the breaker at the
sub station. That breaker was programmed to try and re-connect and
re-connect it did. Much to my suprise the house was up and powered as if
nothing had happened. ALL the ground return from the transformer and the
house (and the neighborhood) was returning through *the ground*.
Although everything was working normally I knew I had to 'fess up' and face
the music. The 'music' in this case meant bringing in a crew by helicoptor
(no roads in this area - an island to boot). Think $1000.00/hr for the
chopper alone. There is no hiding from the wrath of the power company (BC
Hydro) in this situation. My honesty actually saved my ass. Owning up earned
me a place in history as no one had ever done that before. The local manager
allowed as "folks always tried to plead innocent - but, in the end we
*always* caught them". In my case I realized that the pattern of fallen
trees pointing away from a newly installed Satsllite dish might just prove
embarassing.
The power corp buried the minor fix in a bogus meter mixup and it cost me
not a single dime - and no - I wouldn't get off that easily if I screwed up
again.

Regards
Ken (boning up on his trig in case I have to calculate the arc described by
another falling tree in the vicinity of power lines,)


"ATP" wrote in message
.net...
Gary Coffman wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 05:07:09 GMT, "Justin"
wrote:
Note the neutral WILL NOT be connected to the shop ground rod. I
found several nice new, sealed 90' rolls of 2-0 at the reclamation
yard for $25 each last year. Regulations in my area are such that I
don't have to have inspections. Does anyone see a problem?

Why not connect the neutral to the shop ground rod?

Just wondering what the reason was...

The Earth isn't a very good conductor. If you connect to Earth
in two different places, a voltage will exist between the two points
(typically on the order of 25 volts per amp of current in the ground
path). So if you have about 4 amps of fault current, things attached
to one Earthed point will be elevated about 100 volts from the other
Earthed point. That's a potential shock hazard. By connecting to
Earth at only one point, this situation can be avoided.

Gary
In this case it appears that he is connecting the grounding conductor to
the ground rod in the shop, just not bonding it to the neutral. One of the
reasons for this requirement is so that the grounding electrode conductor
does not function as a parallel neutral return or even worse as the main
neutral in case of a lost neutral. This is particularly bad if metallic
conduit is serving as the grounding conductor, because the connections
will
get mighty hot with sustained amperage going through them.

WRT to the ground rod controversy, it is very complicated and some of it
is
beyond me, but I have seen problems with elevated neutrals connected to
copper plumbing systems serving outdoor spigots. People who used the
spigots
while standing on the wet ground with bare feet were getting mild shocks.
There was a small but significant potential difference between ground rods
connected to utility pole neutrals or the service neutral and any driven
ground rod 10' away, which varied continuously and I suspect was related
to
voltage drop on the neutral of the somewhat inadequate utility
distribution
system. In this case the people were "earthed" with their feet, and at a
lower potential than the service entrance neutral or the copper plumbing
bonded to it.

Speaking of ground rods -
I had a 'little' incident with a tree that resulted in the severing of the
neutral feed (1440 volts) to my house or at least the transformer to my
house (and a couple more) - don't ask!
The tree brushed the hot wire on the way down and popped the breaker at the
sub station. That breaker was programmed to try and re-connect and
re-connect it did. Much to my suprise the house was up and powered as if
nothing had happened. ALL the ground return from the transformer and the
house (and the neighborhood) was returning through *the ground*.
Although everything was working normally I knew I had to 'fess up' and face
the music. The 'music' in this case meant bringing in a crew by helicoptor
(no roads in this area - an island to boot). Think $1000.00/hr for the
chopper alone. There is no hiding from the wrath of the power company (BC
Hydro) in this situation. My honesty actually saved my ass. Owning up earned
me a place in history as no one had ever done that before. The local manager
allowed as "folks always tried to plead innocent - but, in the end we
*always* caught them". In my case I realized that the pattern of fallen
trees pointing away from a newly installed Satsllite dish might just prove
embarassing.
The power corp buried the minor fix in a bogus meter mixup and it cost me
not a single dime - and no - I wouldn't get off that easily if I screwed up
again.

Regards
Ken (boning up on his trig in case I have to calculate the arc described by
another falling tree in the vicinity of power lines,)


"ATP" wrote in message
.net...
Gary Coffman wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 05:07:09 GMT, "Justin"
wrote:
Note the neutral WILL NOT be connected to the shop ground rod. I
found several nice new, sealed 90' rolls of 2-0 at the reclamation
yard for $25 each last year. Regulations in my area are such that I
don't have to have inspections. Does anyone see a problem?

Why not connect the neutral to the shop ground rod?

Just wondering what the reason was...

The Earth isn't a very good conductor. If you connect to Earth
in two different places, a voltage will exist between the two points
(typically on the order of 25 volts per amp of current in the ground
path). So if you have about 4 amps of fault current, things attached
to one Earthed point will be elevated about 100 volts from the other
Earthed point. That's a potential shock hazard. By connecting to
Earth at only one point, this situation can be avoided.

Gary
In this case it appears that he is connecting the grounding conductor to
the ground rod in the shop, just not bonding it to the neutral. One of the
reasons for this requirement is so that the grounding electrode conductor
does not function as a parallel neutral return or even worse as the main
neutral in case of a lost neutral. This is particularly bad if metallic
conduit is serving as the grounding conductor, because the connections
will
get mighty hot with sustained amperage going through them.

WRT to the ground rod controversy, it is very complicated and some of it
is
beyond me, but I have seen problems with elevated neutrals connected to
copper plumbing systems serving outdoor spigots. People who used the
spigots
while standing on the wet ground with bare feet were getting mild shocks.
There was a small but significant potential difference between ground rods
connected to utility pole neutrals or the service neutral and any driven
ground rod 10' away, which varied continuously and I suspect was related
to
voltage drop on the neutral of the somewhat inadequate utility
distribution
system. In this case the people were "earthed" with their feet, and at a
lower potential than the service entrance neutral or the copper plumbing
bonded to it.

That happens here from time to time - some times we are cutting them -
we being neighbors.

Sometimes it is a stick of TNT a group member plants, or a car/truck
crunch.

Often it is a Fir - whose roots have rotted in the soggy soil.

The last time was a 36" Fir that fell across the road and across my
property.
The scars a tree that big are massive. It brings everything down with
itself.

It took several days for he county to decide it was in fact their tree
and to send a
team out.


It is fantastic what some of this stuff weighs! - Had a Redwood tree
fall across
a friends truck on Hwy. 17 (55 MPH) and crush the engine block into the
pavement.

Oh it stopped the truck instantly. My friend, was in a good safety belt
- just got
bruised big time. Got a new truck.

Martin
--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

Eastburn wrote:

That happens here from time to time - some times we are cutting them -
we being neighbors.

Sometimes it is a stick of TNT a group member plants, or a car/truck
crunch.

Often it is a Fir - whose roots have rotted in the soggy soil.

The last time was a 36" Fir that fell across the road and across my
property.
The scars a tree that big are massive. It brings everything down with
itself.

It took several days for he county to decide it was in fact their tree
and to send a
team out.

It is fantastic what some of this stuff weighs! - Had a Redwood tree
fall across
a friends truck on Hwy. 17 (55 MPH) and crush the engine block into the
pavement.

Oh it stopped the truck instantly. My friend, was in a good safety belt
- just got
bruised big time. Got a new truck.

Martin
--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

Hwy. 17 to Santa Cruz?

michael

keith bowers wrote:


Good points, thank you.
I found four 90' rolls of nice new 00 wire at the scrap yard for $25 each
last year. This gives me the optino of upping the current later if needed.
I will probably do 8" #2 stubs from the breaker to the 00 hots using half
nuts for the connections. If I need additional power later I can add a
second 200 Amp feed. Local electricians tell me the power company doesn't
encourage second meters; don't know why. As for welding that will be from a
tractor-mounted 28 Volt 300 Amp DC generator. Another conduit will have the
emergency generator feed from shop to house, so I will have a way to light
things up while working on the main feeds plus fiber optics. Aonther will
have water and air and phone lines. A fourth will have coax, CAT-5e, and
other control cables.

Now you are setting your self up for some lovely ground loops.

Also, you will want (and need) a transfer switch for your generator.
If you can iso late the neutral at the generator, and use the service
entrance ground to ground it, you only need a 3 pole. If you can not
isolate it at the generator, you need a 4 pole switch.




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jk wrote:

keith bowers wrote:


Good points, thank you.
I found four 90' rolls of nice new 00 wire at the scrap yard for $25 each
last year. This gives me the optino of upping the current later if needed.
I will probably do 8" #2 stubs from the breaker to the 00 hots using half
nuts for the connections. If I need additional power later I can add a
second 200 Amp feed. Local electricians tell me the power company doesn't
encourage second meters; don't know why. As for welding that will be from
a tractor-mounted 28 Volt 300 Amp DC generator. Another conduit will have
the emergency generator feed from shop to house, so I will have a way to
light things up while working on the main feeds plus fiber optics. Aonther
will have water and air and phone lines. A fourth will have coax, CAT-5e,
and other control cables.

Now you are setting your self up for some lovely ground loops.

Also, you will want (and need) a transfer switch for your generator.
If you can iso late the neutral at the generator, and use the service
entrance ground to ground it, you only need a 3 pole. If you can not
isolate it at the generator, you need a 4 pole switch.




-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
Already taken care of. I don't care for fried lineman 8o((. Right now I have
a roll of 10-3/w gnd to string from the transfer switch across the yard to
the 5 KW generator in the garage. I haven't had to use it yet, so I hope
to have things properly buried before the next disaster.
--
Keith Bowers - Thomasville, NC

That is where the Highway ends or starts depending on the train of
thought!

Yep,
Martin [ in the mountains on the Pacific Plate, work in the North
American Plate ].
--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder


michael wrote:

Eastburn wrote:

That happens here from time to time - some times we are cutting them -
we being neighbors.

Sometimes it is a stick of TNT a group member plants, or a car/truck
crunch.

Often it is a Fir - whose roots have rotted in the soggy soil.

The last time was a 36" Fir that fell across the road and across my
property.
The scars a tree that big are massive. It brings everything down with
itself.

It took several days for he county to decide it was in fact their tree
and to send a
team out.

It is fantastic what some of this stuff weighs! - Had a Redwood tree
fall across
a friends truck on Hwy. 17 (55 MPH) and crush the engine block into the
pavement.

Oh it stopped the truck instantly. My friend, was in a good safety belt
- just got
bruised big time. Got a new truck.

Martin
--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

Hwy. 17 to Santa Cruz?

michael

Eastburn wrote:

That is where the Highway ends or starts depending on the train of
thought!

Yep,
Martin [ in the mountains on the Pacific Plate, work in the North
American Plate ].
--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder


It'll always be 17 to me. When I was a kid we went and walked on it before it
was open all the way to Camden Ave.

Had a house at Love Creek until it rained once. Still had it after, S C County
took the bureaucratic way out of that.

michael

Very sorry to hear about the Love Creek - I know exactly what you mean.

The locals still speak of it from time to time and naturally during a
heavy
rain.

I've topped 100" once - 60-90" is normal a year.

Love was something no one wanted.


The first valley I saw on that order was in Northern Ca ? maybe Oregon.
The highway drove down into a valley of very clean and gray blocks of
Basalt.
By the look one knew the worse - stopped at the center - and 400' below
was the prior town and lake. Both sides of a long valley filled the
center.

I saw it in the 60's - 66 maybe.

Best Regards,
Martin
--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

One of the residents was a volunteer for the weather service. She
ventured out to empty the rain gauge when feeling up to it. It was
overflowing each time and she recorded a measured 22" in 24 hours. The
normal season was, IIRC, 54-56.

Life goes on...

michael

Sounds like a Banana express to me. Wasn't here.

However, in 87 or 88 the ground around the house was like jelly.
I mean wiggle and jiggle to about 4".

I live on a hill also.

The rain was for so many days and the rain pelted the ground
so consistently with tree drip continuing after a rain -
the clay based sandy loam didn't have a chance.

Now it seems like a light year again - don't remember what I ended up
with.

Martin
--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

Yeah, you got half of it with the banana. There was that, and another
from the north. Instead of the usual one over and one under the other,
they stalled. The Coast Range geology is that of a whole bunch of duff
lying on a sandstone base, not much to hold it in place. Like a sponge
on a sloping rock, enough water and bye-bye. They elected to leave the
remains of the unfortunate wherever they ended up. I don't know that any
were ever recovered.

michael

Homes, and all - lives lost are still deep under the mud.
The area is a keep out area - there was some talk about a nature area.

I think some have lurked back to place what they could to honor those
under the hillside.

Another such thing - different from the lumber road above the valley
but one a year or two in northern Ca - a run down a valley endwise.

Living with nature and others can be risky at best.

Best Regards,
Martin
--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder