Modern autos are amazing. Much better reliability for engines, as one
example, since I started driving.

However, the electronics are often a nightmare. It seems the auto-techs and
dealerships are often clueless.

My take on this is to buy a car with air-conditioning and a radio and say no
to the rest. Hard to find a new car like that.

"Charles" wrote in message
...
Modern autos are amazing. Much better reliability for engines, as one
example, since I started driving.

However, the electronics are often a nightmare. It seems the auto-techs
and dealerships are often clueless.

My take on this is to buy a car with air-conditioning and a radio and say
no to the rest. Hard to find a new car like that.


Why ? The electronics in modern vehicles are extremely reliable, despite the
anecdotal tales that people always seem to have about their friend's
brother-in-law's aunty's cousin who had to fork out 1000 quid for a new ECU
because the headlights wouldn't come on. For sure, back street service
outfits are often clueless about the systems, but main dealers and proper
authorised diagnostic centres have the appropriate tools and skills to
effect correct diagnoses and repairs. Most ECUs are self-monitoring anyway,
and if you have the correct tools such as an OBD analyser, the ECU will tell
you what it thinks has gone wrong with either itself, or one of its
peripheral sensors.

Without the electronics that modern cars have, they would struggle to
achieve the required emission levels to satisfy legality testing, and would
be nothing like as efficient in terms of fuel usage, and power curve
utilisation of the engine. I really think that it is one area in life that
has benefited hugely from modern technology, and you should embrace it and
all of the advantages that it brings, rather than just trying to reject it
out of hand, in favour of old and tired techniques that no longer have any
valid place in the grand scheme of things, except as collector pieces, and
interesting curios in museums. And no, I'm not a kid who has never known
anything except cars filled with electronics. I passed my test over 40 years
ago, when the most technical item in a vehicle was the radio and I, for one,
am heartily glad that I no longer have to worry about whether the car is
going to start in cold weather or overheat in hot weather, or fail to start
because the points have burnt out, or run like a dog because the plugs need
replacing and on and on and on ...

Arfa

The electronics in modern vehicles are extremely reliable,
despite the anecdotal tales that people always seem to
have about their friend's brother-in-law's aunty's cousin who
had to fork out 1000 quid for a new ECU because the headlights
wouldn't come on.

I don't know how modern is modern, but my 1987 Chevy Beretta twice required
computer replacement at 400 bucks a pop.

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
The electronics in modern vehicles are extremely reliable,
despite the anecdotal tales that people always seem to
have about their friend's brother-in-law's aunty's cousin who
had to fork out 1000 quid for a new ECU because the headlights
wouldn't come on.

I don't know how modern is modern, but my 1987 Chevy Beretta twice
required
computer replacement at 400 bucks a pop.




But that was 25 years ago. I'm calling 'modern' up to say 10 years ago. If
you buy a car older than that, then I would have thought that its
electronics were going to be the least of your problems. Auto electronics
have evolved hugely since the time of your Chevy, and given the myriad of
real-time tasks that the ECU is constantly performing, including looking
after the injection, ignition timing, airflow monitoring, exhaust gas
monitoring, temperature monitoring, environmental control, ABS and ETC
computer monitoring, warning systems, even the radio, and further given the
extremely hostile and unforgiving circumstances that it does it in, I think
that auto electronics are a shining example of what can be achieved in terms
of elegance of design, and staggering reliability levels in a mass produced
item.

Of course, there are going to be exceptions, and your Chevy would appear to
be one, but when you consider how many millions of cars are tooling around
on our roads, I really don't think that the occasional failures anything
like outweigh the multitude of advantages. And actually, I don't think that
$400 is too bad for an ECU replacement. You could easily shell out that
amount on a full brake service or new clutch ??

Arfa

On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 02:52:30 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:

Why ? The electronics in modern vehicles are extremely reliable,

There's a reason. I attented a lecture on semiconductor reliability
last night by Dr. Todd Weatherford, a professor at the Naval Post
Graduate School's ECE Department. I know almost nothing about the
topic, forgot to take notes, and am writing this from memory. I
couldn't find the presentation online, but will ask for a copy to be
posted. His comments have me more than a little worried.

Reliability in semiconductor devices decreases as the device scale
goes downward in size. With 22nm gate widths, we're fairly close to
unacceptable failure rates in CPU's induced by a wide variety of
effects that were previously not even a consideration with larger
scale devices. Auto manufactuers recognize the reliability problem
and therefore use what might be considered ancient larger scale
technology that is far more reliable and more likely to survive in the
hostile automotive environment. Despite the conservative design and
component selection, the automotive environment is fairly hostile to
electronics and will cause failures.



--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 18/08/2012 02:52, Arfa Daily wrote:


"Charles" wrote in message
...
Modern autos are amazing. Much better reliability for engines, as one
example, since I started driving.

However, the electronics are often a nightmare. It seems the
auto-techs and dealerships are often clueless.

My take on this is to buy a car with air-conditioning and a radio and
say no to the rest. Hard to find a new car like that.


Why ? The electronics in modern vehicles are extremely reliable, despite
the anecdotal tales that people always seem to have about their friend's
brother-in-law's aunty's cousin who had to fork out 1000 quid for a new
ECU because the headlights wouldn't come on. For sure, back street
service outfits are often clueless about the systems, but main dealers
and proper authorised diagnostic centres have the appropriate tools and
skills to effect correct diagnoses and repairs. Most ECUs are
self-monitoring anyway, and if you have the correct tools such as an OBD
analyser, the ECU will tell you what it thinks has gone wrong with
either itself, or one of its peripheral sensors.

Without the electronics that modern cars have, they would struggle to
achieve the required emission levels to satisfy legality testing, and
would be nothing like as efficient in terms of fuel usage, and power
curve utilisation of the engine. I really think that it is one area in
life that has benefited hugely from modern technology, and you should
embrace it and all of the advantages that it brings, rather than just
trying to reject it out of hand, in favour of old and tired techniques
that no longer have any valid place in the grand scheme of things,
except as collector pieces, and interesting curios in museums. And no,
I'm not a kid who has never known anything except cars filled with
electronics. I passed my test over 40 years ago, when the most technical
item in a vehicle was the radio and I, for one, am heartily glad that I
no longer have to worry about whether the car is going to start in cold
weather or overheat in hot weather, or fail to start because the points
have burnt out, or run like a dog because the plugs need replacing and
on and on and on ...

Arfa

+1. Let's not forget that the MPG has nearly doubled too.

"Charles" wrote in message ...

I was asking about and hoping for opinions about expensive 'options.'

Air-bags, emission control, etc. are not what I was interested in as it is a
given that they are now a fact of life.

"Charles" wrote in message
...


"Charles" wrote in message ...

I was asking about and hoping for opinions about expensive 'options.'

Air-bags, emission control, etc. are not what I was interested in as it is
a given that they are now a fact of life.


Well, I don't think that this was abundantly clear in your original post.
You made it sound like you were looking for an Amish covered wagon with a
fan and a banjo in it ...

What electronic controlled 'options' are there, these days ? In the last 15
years, we have owned all sorts of cars in our family from cheapo Fords to
expensive Range Rovers, and they all had pretty much the same features built
in as standard. Is that not the case in the U.S. also ? I would have thought
that given the number of Far East and European imports that I see when I'm
over there, the situation would be similar to this side of the pond. Most
optional features over here, are limited to paint finish, engine specs, and
trim.

Arfa

"Charles" wrote in message
...
Modern autos are amazing. Much better reliability for engines, as one
example, since I started driving.

However, the electronics are often a nightmare. It seems the auto-techs
and dealerships are often clueless.

My take on this is to buy a car with air-conditioning and a radio and say
no to the rest. Hard to find a new car like that.

And it gets worse....in my 2007 Chevy Cobalt, the turn signal clicker, the
key-in-ignition warning, and the seat belt warning are all run thru the
radio amplifier, and are sent to the driver side front speakers. Change the
radio, or lose the amp, and you have no sounds.

And it gets worse....in my 2007 Chevy Cobalt, the turn signal clicker, the
key-in-ignition warning, and the seat belt warning are all run thru the
radio amplifier, and are sent to the driver side front speakers. Change the
radio, or lose the amp, and you have no sounds.

At last! A kindred sufferer! My car has been a nightmare with intermittent
electrical and electronic problems.

Just say no to the add on junk that they cannot service!

"Klaatu" wrote in message
...
"Charles" wrote in message
...
Modern autos are amazing. Much better reliability for engines, as one
example, since I started driving.

However, the electronics are often a nightmare. It seems the auto-techs
and dealerships are often clueless.

My take on this is to buy a car with air-conditioning and a radio and say
no to the rest. Hard to find a new car like that.

And it gets worse....in my 2007 Chevy Cobalt, the turn signal clicker, the
key-in-ignition warning, and the seat belt warning are all run thru the
radio amplifier, and are sent to the driver side front speakers. Change
the radio, or lose the amp, and you have no sounds.


Do you not have adaptor harnesses in the U.S. ? Many modern car radios have
all sorts of features that interface with the vehicle, such as stalk mounted
controls, temperature displays and so on. Most of these features are
implemented by CAN bus, and can be restored on alternate radios - providing
of course that you're not *downgrading* it - by use of an adaptor cable. My
son just recently changed the radio in his Peugeot for instance, and it was
merely a case of looking up which radios had the 'new' features that he
wanted, and then selecting a compatible one from those he found. The store
that he bought it from supplied an adaptor harness that allowed him to plug
it straight into the existing vehicle harness, and get all his car-related
features back as well.

Arfa

"Arfa Daily" wrote in
:



"Klaatu" wrote in message
...
"Charles" wrote in message
...
Modern autos are amazing. Much better reliability for engines, as
one example, since I started driving.

However, the electronics are often a nightmare. It seems the
auto-techs and dealerships are often clueless.

My take on this is to buy a car with air-conditioning and a radio
and say no to the rest. Hard to find a new car like that.

And it gets worse....in my 2007 Chevy Cobalt, the turn signal
clicker, the key-in-ignition warning, and the seat belt warning are
all run thru the radio amplifier, and are sent to the driver side
front speakers. Change the radio, or lose the amp, and you have no
sounds.


Do you not have adaptor harnesses in the U.S. ? Many modern car radios
have all sorts of features that interface with the vehicle, such as
stalk mounted controls, temperature displays and so on. Most of these
features are implemented by CAN bus, and can be restored on alternate
radios - providing of course that you're not *downgrading* it - by use
of an adaptor cable. My son just recently changed the radio in his
Peugeot for instance, and it was merely a case of looking up which
radios had the 'new' features that he wanted, and then selecting a
compatible one from those he found. The store that he bought it from
supplied an adaptor harness that allowed him to plug it straight into
the existing vehicle harness, and get all his car-related features
back as well.

Arfa



what do you do when the car's climate control system is controlled from the
radio/display? many cars today have integrated radio/AC systems. radio
dies,and you have no climate control,other than rolling down a window.
I won't buy a car with such an integrated system.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

"Charles" wrote in message
...



And it gets worse....in my 2007 Chevy Cobalt, the turn signal clicker, the
key-in-ignition warning, and the seat belt warning are all run thru the
radio amplifier, and are sent to the driver side front speakers. Change
the
radio, or lose the amp, and you have no sounds.

At last! A kindred sufferer! My car has been a nightmare with
intermittent electrical and electronic problems.

Just say no to the add on junk that they cannot service!

The front speakers on the aforementioned Cobalt have been popping on and off
for some time now, so since today was cooler, I removed the radio to check
connections. Low and behold, the unit in the dash is only the tuner and CD
player....no amp! Weighs about half a pound, and has NO heat sinks. Has
very, very anemic size wiring harnes, power side is the largest wire, and
its smaller than lamp cord. I cleaned the contacts on all the plugs and
reinstalled it. Still no front speakers, turn signal clickers, or
key-in-ignition sounds. It sat in the sun for 6 hours and got toasty inside
and I decided to go into town. Started the car, and everything worked.
From past experience, it won't work when its cool in the morning.
Now all I have to do is find out where they've hidden the actual amplifier.
I bought this car without all the things that have failed on me in the past,
power windows, power seats, whistles and bells, and I STILL got burnt.
Anybody know where the audio amplifier is on a 2007 Chevy Cobalt?
TIA

On Aug 18, 2:43*pm, newshound wrote:
On 18/08/2012 02:52, Arfa Daily wrote:











"Charles" wrote in message
...
Modern autos are amazing. *Much better reliability for engines, as one
example, since I started driving.

However, the electronics are often a nightmare. *It seems the
auto-techs and dealerships are often clueless.

My take on this is to buy a car with air-conditioning and a radio and
say no to the rest. *Hard to find a new car like that.

Why ? The electronics in modern vehicles are extremely reliable, despite
the anecdotal tales that people always seem to have about their friend's
brother-in-law's aunty's cousin who had to fork out 1000 quid for a new
ECU because the headlights wouldn't come on. For sure, back street
service outfits are often clueless about the systems, but main dealers
and proper authorised diagnostic centres have the appropriate tools and
skills to effect correct diagnoses and repairs. Most ECUs are
self-monitoring anyway, and if you have the correct tools such as an OBD
analyser, the ECU will tell you what it thinks has gone wrong with
either itself, or one of its peripheral sensors.

Without the electronics that modern cars have, they would struggle to
achieve the required emission levels to satisfy legality testing, and
would be nothing like as efficient in terms of fuel usage, and power
curve utilisation of the engine. I really think that it is one area in
life that has benefited hugely from modern technology, and you should
embrace it and all of the advantages that it brings, rather than just
trying to reject it out of hand, in favour of old and tired techniques
that no longer have any valid place in the grand scheme of things,
except as collector pieces, and interesting curios in museums. And no,
I'm not a kid who has never known anything except cars filled with
electronics. I passed my test over 40 years ago, when the most technical
item in a vehicle was the radio and I, for one, am heartily glad that I
no longer have to worry about whether the car is going to start in cold
weather or overheat in hot weather, or fail to start because the points
have burnt out, or run like a dog because the plugs need replacing and
on and on and on ...

Arfa

+1. Let's not forget that the MPG has nearly doubled too.

No it hasn't. Thirty-four years ago, a co-worker bought a 1978 Diesel
VW Rabbit. He got consistently over 43 MPG. I see no conventional cars
getting 86 MPG today.

Klaatu wrote:

Anybody know where the audio amplifier is on a 2007 Chevy Cobalt?


Have you asked the local dealer? I never had problems getting
answers from the parts/service department. Some '70s Delco car radios
had the output transistors mounted on a separate heatsink, that was
mounted to the inside of the firewall. They had a pair of TO-3
transistors, and a six wire cable to the unit. People would bring them
into the shop for service, without the outputs and insist we should just
use the outputs from another radio. We refused, because of the
percentage of bad output transistors left in the cars meant extra work
for us.

Jim Yanik wrote:
"Arfa Daily" wrote in
:



"Klaatu" wrote in message
...
"Charles" wrote in message
...
Modern autos are amazing. Much better reliability for engines, as
one example, since I started driving.

However, the electronics are often a nightmare. It seems the
auto-techs and dealerships are often clueless.

My take on this is to buy a car with air-conditioning and a radio
and say no to the rest. Hard to find a new car like that.

And it gets worse....in my 2007 Chevy Cobalt, the turn signal
clicker, the key-in-ignition warning, and the seat belt warning are
all run thru the radio amplifier, and are sent to the driver side
front speakers. Change the radio, or lose the amp, and you have no
sounds.


Do you not have adaptor harnesses in the U.S. ? Many modern car radios
have all sorts of features that interface with the vehicle, such as
stalk mounted controls, temperature displays and so on. Most of these
features are implemented by CAN bus, and can be restored on alternate
radios - providing of course that you're not *downgrading* it - by use
of an adaptor cable. My son just recently changed the radio in his
Peugeot for instance, and it was merely a case of looking up which
radios had the 'new' features that he wanted, and then selecting a
compatible one from those he found. The store that he bought it from
supplied an adaptor harness that allowed him to plug it straight into
the existing vehicle harness, and get all his car-related features
back as well.

Arfa



what do you do when the car's climate control system is controlled from the
radio/display? many cars today have integrated radio/AC systems. radio
dies,and you have no climate control,other than rolling down a window.
I won't buy a car with such an integrated system.

I had a problem a couple times. No xm. Of course the rear camera would not
work, no onstar, couple others. There is some kind of electronics under a
tray near upholders. Fine, drinks and electronics.

My 2001 cavalier has connector under battery. Never put connections under
battery. Do they know anything?

Worked on 95 olds for over a year. Manifold problems. OPD 1.5 . Most of the
time computer was not accessible, and hard to find place and or programs to
read OPD 1.5. Then there is more than one OPD 1.5. Then it was an
intermittent computer. Replaced sensors, better. Replaced computer, better.
Replaced plugs wires, better. Replaced ignition controller, wamo. Not my
car.

First time last year I had a vehicle with motorized windows or locks.

Greg

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

Klaatu wrote:

Anybody know where the audio amplifier is on a 2007 Chevy Cobalt?


Have you asked the local dealer? I never had problems getting
answers from the parts/service department. Some '70s Delco car radios
had the output transistors mounted on a separate heatsink, that was
mounted to the inside of the firewall. They had a pair of TO-3
transistors, and a six wire cable to the unit. People would bring them
into the shop for service, without the outputs and insist we should just
use the outputs from another radio. We refused, because of the
percentage of bad output transistors left in the cars meant extra work
for us.


The former local dealer has gone out of business as a Chevy dealer, and will
offer nothing for free. Don't like him anyway due to past dealings. So,
I'm off to the salvage yard to ask them.

Klaatu wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

Klaatu wrote:

Anybody know where the audio amplifier is on a 2007 Chevy Cobalt?


Have you asked the local dealer? I never had problems getting
answers from the parts/service department. Some '70s Delco car radios
had the output transistors mounted on a separate heatsink, that was
mounted to the inside of the firewall. They had a pair of TO-3
transistors, and a six wire cable to the unit. People would bring them
into the shop for service, without the outputs and insist we should just
use the outputs from another radio. We refused, because of the
percentage of bad output transistors left in the cars meant extra work
for us.

The former local dealer has gone out of business as a Chevy dealer, and will
offer nothing for free. Don't like him anyway due to past dealings. So,
I'm off to the salvage yard to ask them.


There are a lot of hits for Chevy forums, if that doesn't help you.

https://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=1Zn&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=chevy+cobalt+forum&oq=Chevy+Cobalt +f&gs_l=serp.1.1.0l10.20700.33355.0.36232.4.4.0.0. 0.0.92.357.4.4.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.b_tom4n-AuY

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...

Klaatu wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

Klaatu wrote:

Anybody know where the audio amplifier is on a 2007 Chevy Cobalt?


Have you asked the local dealer? I never had problems getting
answers from the parts/service department. Some '70s Delco car radios
had the output transistors mounted on a separate heatsink, that was
mounted to the inside of the firewall. They had a pair of TO-3
transistors, and a six wire cable to the unit. People would bring them
into the shop for service, without the outputs and insist we should
just
use the outputs from another radio. We refused, because of the
percentage of bad output transistors left in the cars meant extra work
for us.

The former local dealer has gone out of business as a Chevy dealer, and
will
offer nothing for free. Don't like him anyway due to past dealings. So,
I'm off to the salvage yard to ask them.


There are a lot of hits for Chevy forums, if that doesn't help you.

https://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=1Zn&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=chevy+cobalt+forum&oq=Chevy+Cobalt +f&gs_l=serp.1.1.0l10.20700.33355.0.36232.4.4.0.0. 0.0.92.357.4.4.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.b_tom4n-AuY


Thanks Michael. The amp is actually behind the panel that's behind the
parking brake.
Another project this weekend.

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...

Klaatu wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

Klaatu wrote:

Anybody know where the audio amplifier is on a 2007 Chevy Cobalt?


Have you asked the local dealer? I never had problems getting
answers from the parts/service department. Some '70s Delco car radios
had the output transistors mounted on a separate heatsink, that was
mounted to the inside of the firewall. They had a pair of TO-3
transistors, and a six wire cable to the unit. People would bring them
into the shop for service, without the outputs and insist we should
just
use the outputs from another radio. We refused, because of the
percentage of bad output transistors left in the cars meant extra work
for us.

The former local dealer has gone out of business as a Chevy dealer, and
will
offer nothing for free. Don't like him anyway due to past dealings. So,
I'm off to the salvage yard to ask them.


There are a lot of hits for Chevy forums, if that doesn't help you.

https://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=1Zn&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=chevy+cobalt+forum&oq=Chevy+Cobalt +f&gs_l=serp.1.1.0l10.20700.33355.0.36232.4.4.0.0. 0.0.92.357.4.4.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.b_tom4n-AuY


Another interesting fact from the salvage yard....evidently all the factory
audio electronics are married to the cars computer, and can't be
interchanged without a dealer computer interface.
So if your radio tuner dies, you can't just buy a salvage replacement, stick
it in and get it to work. You have to tell the cars computer to authorize
it, and provide the VIN of the car that the
salvage part came from, or it wont work, and may trigger the anti-theft
system.. It was also interesting to learn that to get cruise control
installed on my car, all you need is the control unit, everything else is
already built in. And you have to go into the cars computer using a dealer
interface, and "authorize" cruise control (yes/no choice). The visit was
quite informative.

On Saturday, August 18, 2012 9:58:49 PM UTC+8, Arfa Daily wrote:
"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message

...

The electronics in modern vehicles are extremely reliable,

despite the anecdotal tales that people always seem to

have about their friend's brother-in-law's aunty's cousin who

had to fork out 1000 quid for a new ECU because the headlights

wouldn't come on.



I don't know how modern is modern, but my 1987 Chevy Beretta twice

required

computer replacement at 400 bucks a pop.









But that was 25 years ago. I'm calling 'modern' up to say 10 years ago. If

you buy a car older than that, then I would have thought that its

electronics were going to be the least of your problems. Auto electronics

have evolved hugely since the time of your Chevy, and given the myriad of

real-time tasks that the ECU is constantly performing, including looking

after the injection, ignition timing, airflow monitoring, exhaust gas

monitoring, temperature monitoring, environmental control, ABS and ETC

computer monitoring, warning systems, even the radio, and further given the

extremely hostile and unforgiving circumstances that it does it in, I think

that auto electronics are a shining example of what can be achieved in terms

of elegance of design, and staggering reliability levels in a mass produced

item.



Of course, there are going to be exceptions, and your Chevy would appear to

be one, but when you consider how many millions of cars are tooling around

on our roads, I really don't think that the occasional failures anything

like outweigh the multitude of advantages. And actually, I don't think that

$400 is too bad for an ECU replacement. You could easily shell out that

amount on a full brake service or new clutch ??



Arf


I have a friend who was told by the dealer here ECU was defective and had to be replaced at a heavy cost and was non-repairable, being an electronics guy I did not believe it could not be repaired and checked on line, found a place in Germany that repairs them. The unit was sent to them for repair, they found no problem!! It was re-installed in the car and the dealer rechecked it while I was there, again it was found defective! I was watching the test and asked the guy why he did not call up the model of the car on his test computer.... He replied "we don't have that model on our computer sir, but its OK" I tore him and his manager off a piece and got them to refund the cost of having the unit checked in Germany

Make sure your dealer knows how to use a computer diagnostic program