Does anyone have any info on whether MPLAB has RS232 compatible programmer
support?

Having downloaded a number of programmer schematics, I've found that a
couple (Serpic & David Tait) that are very similar to the Velleman K8048 and
wondered if this is some sort of industry standard.

If anyone is interested, the examples including Velleman K8048 schematic are
easy to find with google.

The RS232 connector is as follows:

Pin7 (RTS); CLK/RB6/PGC
Pin4 (DTR); DATA/RB7/PGD
Pin8 (CTS); DATA/RB7/PGD
Pin3 (TXD); Pin3 & Pin9 hardwired together
Pin9 (RI); VPP/MCLR(NOT)

Each signal has a transistor buffer/level converter between the RS232 +-12V
and PIC logic levels.

TIA.

I have the Microchip ICD2 debugger which has both USB (preferred) and RS-232
connectors. This works under MPLAB. I am pretty sure that the connection
preferences can be set in MPLAB under the programmer tab.
Cheers
Oppie

"ian field" wrote in message
...
Does anyone have any info on whether MPLAB has RS232 compatible programmer
support?

Having downloaded a number of programmer schematics, I've found that a
couple (Serpic & David Tait) that are very similar to the Velleman K8048
and wondered if this is some sort of industry standard.

If anyone is interested, the examples including Velleman K8048 schematic
are easy to find with google.

The RS232 connector is as follows:

Pin7 (RTS); CLK/RB6/PGC
Pin4 (DTR); DATA/RB7/PGD
Pin8 (CTS); DATA/RB7/PGD
Pin3 (TXD); Pin3 & Pin9 hardwired together
Pin9 (RI); VPP/MCLR(NOT)

Each signal has a transistor buffer/level converter between the RS232
+-12V and PIC logic levels.

TIA.

"Oppie" wrote in message
news:LJh0j.5915$rg1.4277@trndny04...
I have the Microchip ICD2 debugger which has both USB (preferred) and
RS-232 connectors. This works under MPLAB. I am pretty sure that the
connection preferences can be set in MPLAB under the programmer tab.
Cheers
Oppie

Thanks for confirming that RS232 is an option - do you have any info on pin
implementation?

There is a Microchip appnote which describes a LPT programmer and schematic,
does anyone know if it has a RS232 counterpart? - If anyone knows the
document number, I've probably already downlosded it.

"ian field" wrote:


"Oppie" wrote in message
news:LJh0j.5915$rg1.4277@trndny04...
I have the Microchip ICD2 debugger which has both USB (preferred) and
RS-232 connectors. This works under MPLAB. I am pretty sure that the
connection preferences can be set in MPLAB under the programmer tab.
Cheers
Oppie

Thanks for confirming that RS232 is an option - do you have any info on pin
implementation?

There is a Microchip appnote which describes a LPT programmer and schematic,
does anyone know if it has a RS232 counterpart? - If anyone knows the
document number, I've probably already downlosded it.

The Microchip ICD2 is dirt cheap and you can buy Chinese clones of it on
ebay for about 1/3rd of dirt cheap.

Hard to see how DIYing anything is worth the trouble and an ICD2 will give
you in circuit debug too.

--

nospam writes:
Hard to see how DIYing anything is worth the trouble

In general, two good reasons I can think of:

1. It's fun.

2. Building ICE capabilities into a multi-cpu device. For example, my
furnace has six CPUs, one big one which can reprogram the five
little ones.

"nospam" wrote in message
...
"ian field" wrote:


"Oppie" wrote in message
news:LJh0j.5915$rg1.4277@trndny04...
I have the Microchip ICD2 debugger which has both USB (preferred) and
RS-232 connectors. This works under MPLAB. I am pretty sure that the
connection preferences can be set in MPLAB under the programmer tab.
Cheers
Oppie

Thanks for confirming that RS232 is an option - do you have any info on
pin
implementation?

There is a Microchip appnote which describes a LPT programmer and
schematic,
does anyone know if it has a RS232 counterpart? - If anyone knows the
document number, I've probably already downlosded it.

The Microchip ICD2 is dirt cheap and you can buy Chinese clones of it on
ebay for about 1/3rd of dirt cheap.

Hard to see how DIYing anything is worth the trouble and an ICD2 will give
you in circuit debug too.

There are a bunch of hits for 'ICD2 schematic' found with Google.
Here's one http://www.nebadje.org/doku.php?id=neblab:icd2clone

Hope this helps you.
Still, as 'nospam' points out, the ICD2 is pretty inexpensive and used ones
should be out there.

Oppie

"Oppie" wrote in message
news:fak0j.530$r81.32@trndny05...

"nospam" wrote in message
...
"ian field" wrote:


"Oppie" wrote in message
news:LJh0j.5915$rg1.4277@trndny04...
I have the Microchip ICD2 debugger which has both USB (preferred) and
RS-232 connectors. This works under MPLAB. I am pretty sure that the
connection preferences can be set in MPLAB under the programmer tab.
Cheers
Oppie

Thanks for confirming that RS232 is an option - do you have any info on
pin
implementation?

There is a Microchip appnote which describes a LPT programmer and
schematic,
does anyone know if it has a RS232 counterpart? - If anyone knows the
document number, I've probably already downlosded it.

The Microchip ICD2 is dirt cheap and you can buy Chinese clones of it on
ebay for about 1/3rd of dirt cheap.

Hard to see how DIYing anything is worth the trouble and an ICD2 will
give
you in circuit debug too.

There are a bunch of hits for 'ICD2 schematic' found with Google.
Here's one http://www.nebadje.org/doku.php?id=neblab:icd2clone

Hope this helps you.
Still, as 'nospam' points out, the ICD2 is pretty inexpensive and used
ones should be out there.

Oppie


Thanks for the link, that's going to be a "later" project as I'd need a
programmer to program the onboard intelligence of that design.

Are any of the Microchip products "dumb programmers" where the signals on
the RS232 correspond directly with target PIC pins after level shifting -
i.e.:

RTS = RB6
DTR=RB7
&
TXD=VPP ?

"ian field" wrote in message ...
Does anyone have any info on whether MPLAB has RS232 compatible programmer support?

Having downloaded a number of programmer schematics, I've found that a couple (Serpic & David Tait) that are very similar
to the Velleman K8048 and wondered if this is some sort of industry standard.

If anyone is interested, the examples including Velleman K8048 schematic are easy to find with google.

The RS232 connector is as follows:

Pin7 (RTS); CLK/RB6/PGC
Pin4 (DTR); DATA/RB7/PGD
Pin8 (CTS); DATA/RB7/PGD
Pin3 (TXD); Pin3 & Pin9 hardwired together
Pin9 (RI); VPP/MCLR(NOT)

Each signal has a transistor buffer/level converter between the RS232 +-12V and PIC logic levels.

TIA.

The ICD2 is RS232 and USB. It has its own micro inside, so Its not a direct link to MPLAB.
The ICD2 also has its own driver to load to work with MPLAB.
I made the Tait programmer and used Davids software for 16F parts. For the 18F parts I purchased the ICD2 and use the demo
compiler.
Programs fast, but debugging is a little slow. (wish they had more break points)

Cheers

"ian field" schreef in bericht
...

"Oppie" wrote in message
news:fak0j.530$r81.32@trndny05...

"nospam" wrote in message
...
"ian field" wrote:


"Oppie" wrote in message
news:LJh0j.5915$rg1.4277@trndny04...
I have the Microchip ICD2 debugger which has both USB (preferred) and
RS-232 connectors. This works under MPLAB. I am pretty sure that the
connection preferences can be set in MPLAB under the programmer tab.
Cheers
Oppie

Thanks for confirming that RS232 is an option - do you have any info on
pin
implementation?

There is a Microchip appnote which describes a LPT programmer and
schematic,
does anyone know if it has a RS232 counterpart? - If anyone knows the
document number, I've probably already downlosded it.

The Microchip ICD2 is dirt cheap and you can buy Chinese clones of it on
ebay for about 1/3rd of dirt cheap.

Hard to see how DIYing anything is worth the trouble and an ICD2 will
give
you in circuit debug too.

There are a bunch of hits for 'ICD2 schematic' found with Google.
Here's one http://www.nebadje.org/doku.php?id=neblab:icd2clone

Hope this helps you.
Still, as 'nospam' points out, the ICD2 is pretty inexpensive and used
ones should be out there.

Oppie


Thanks for the link, that's going to be a "later" project as I'd need a
programmer to program the onboard intelligence of that design.

Are any of the Microchip products "dumb programmers" where the signals on
the RS232 correspond directly with target PIC pins after level shifting -
i.e.:

RTS = RB6
DTR=RB7
&
TXD=VPP ?



Not directly, but http://www.oshonsoft.com/picprogserial.html comes close.
You need a handfull of electronics but no intelligence in the circuit. The
parallel served me well for some time.

petrus bitbyter

DJ Delorie wrote:


nospam writes:
Hard to see how DIYing anything is worth the trouble

In general, two good reasons I can think of:

1. It's fun.

2. Building ICE capabilities into a multi-cpu device. For example, my
furnace has six CPUs, one big one which can reprogram the five
little ones.

When I said DIYing anything, anything meant any MPLab compatible
programming device.

ebay uk has ICD2 clones from £36 delivered.

The OP presumably has something rather more fun to do for which he needs a
programmer.
--

"nospam" wrote in message
news
DJ Delorie wrote:


nospam writes:
Hard to see how DIYing anything is worth the trouble

In general, two good reasons I can think of:

1. It's fun.

2. Building ICE capabilities into a multi-cpu device. For example, my
furnace has six CPUs, one big one which can reprogram the five
little ones.

When I said DIYing anything, anything meant any MPLab compatible
programming device.

ebay uk has ICD2 clones from £36 delivered.

The OP presumably has something rather more fun to do for which he needs a
programmer.
--

What I have is a Velleman K8048 programmer which only level shifts certain
pins on the RS232 connector to 5V logic level and feeds the resultant
signals to the PGD, PGC & VPP pins on the PIC - I was hoping MPLAB had a
compatibility mode for such a "dumb" programmer board.

Obviously the Velleman kit came with programming software, and the kit
schematic is almost identical to a couple of others I've downloaded, but if
a new PIC is introduced I'd have to trawl the net for programmer software to
support it, if it was easy to modify my kit to work with MPLAB this would be
a much simpler problem.

"petrus bitbyter" wrote in message
ll.nl...

"ian field" schreef in bericht
...

"Oppie" wrote in message
news:fak0j.530$r81.32@trndny05...

"nospam" wrote in message
...
"ian field" wrote:


"Oppie" wrote in message
news:LJh0j.5915$rg1.4277@trndny04...
I have the Microchip ICD2 debugger which has both USB (preferred) and
RS-232 connectors. This works under MPLAB. I am pretty sure that the
connection preferences can be set in MPLAB under the programmer tab.
Cheers
Oppie

Thanks for confirming that RS232 is an option - do you have any info on
pin
implementation?

There is a Microchip appnote which describes a LPT programmer and
schematic,
does anyone know if it has a RS232 counterpart? - If anyone knows the
document number, I've probably already downlosded it.

The Microchip ICD2 is dirt cheap and you can buy Chinese clones of it
on
ebay for about 1/3rd of dirt cheap.

Hard to see how DIYing anything is worth the trouble and an ICD2 will
give
you in circuit debug too.

There are a bunch of hits for 'ICD2 schematic' found with Google.
Here's one http://www.nebadje.org/doku.php?id=neblab:icd2clone

Hope this helps you.
Still, as 'nospam' points out, the ICD2 is pretty inexpensive and used
ones should be out there.

Oppie


Thanks for the link, that's going to be a "later" project as I'd need a
programmer to program the onboard intelligence of that design.

Are any of the Microchip products "dumb programmers" where the signals on
the RS232 correspond directly with target PIC pins after level shifting -
i.e.:

RTS = RB6
DTR=RB7
&
TXD=VPP ?



Not directly, but http://www.oshonsoft.com/picprogserial.html comes close.
You need a handfull of electronics but no intelligence in the circuit. The
parallel served me well for some time.

petrus bitbyter


I already have a serial programmer - I was asking if MPLAB had a
compatibility mode I could use the Velleman K8048 board with or modify the
board to fit.

"Martin Riddle" wrote in message
news:hAp0j.9471$Mg1.7679@trndny03...

"ian field" wrote in message
...
Does anyone have any info on whether MPLAB has RS232 compatible
programmer support?

Having downloaded a number of programmer schematics, I've found that a
couple (Serpic & David Tait) that are very similar to the Velleman K8048
and wondered if this is some sort of industry standard.

If anyone is interested, the examples including Velleman K8048 schematic
are easy to find with google.

The RS232 connector is as follows:

Pin7 (RTS); CLK/RB6/PGC
Pin4 (DTR); DATA/RB7/PGD
Pin8 (CTS); DATA/RB7/PGD
Pin3 (TXD); Pin3 & Pin9 hardwired together
Pin9 (RI); VPP/MCLR(NOT)

Each signal has a transistor buffer/level converter between the RS232
+-12V and PIC logic levels.

TIA.

The ICD2 is RS232 and USB. It has its own micro inside, so Its not a
direct link to MPLAB.
The ICD2 also has its own driver to load to work with MPLAB.
I made the Tait programmer and used Davids software for 16F parts. For the
18F parts I purchased the ICD2 and use the demo compiler.
Programs fast, but debugging is a little slow. (wish they had more break
points)

Cheers



Having spent out already on the K8048 programmer I'm not eager to spend any
more on an ICD2, the K8048 is almost identical to the Serpic2 which
apparently is based on the Tait, so at least I'm not completely at the mercy
of whether Velleman release software updates to support newly released PICs.

"Martin Riddle" wrote in message
news:hAp0j.9471$Mg1.7679@trndny03...

The ICD2 is RS232 and USB. It has its own micro inside, so Its not a
direct link to MPLAB.
The ICD2 also has its own driver to load to work with MPLAB.
I made the Tait programmer and used Davids software for 16F parts. For the
18F parts I purchased the ICD2 and use the demo compiler.
Programs fast, but debugging is a little slow. (wish they had more break
points)

Cheers


Hi Martin,

We used the ICD2 for several projects with the same observations. Last year
Microchip released the Real ICE which has unlimited breakpoints and runs
fast. Cost is $500 - a drop in the bucket as far as professional salaries
go...
http://microchip.com/stellent/idcplg...ame =en028120

"ian field" wrote in message
...

What I have is a Velleman K8048 programmer which only level shifts certain
pins on the RS232 connector to 5V logic level and feeds the resultant
signals to the PGD, PGC & VPP pins on the PIC - I was hoping MPLAB had a
compatibility mode for such a "dumb" programmer board.

Obviously the Velleman kit came with programming software, and the kit
schematic is almost identical to a couple of others I've downloaded, but
if a new PIC is introduced I'd have to trawl the net for programmer
software to support it, if it was easy to modify my kit to work with MPLAB
this would be a much simpler problem.

I can only recommend that you contact Microchip tech support and ask. We
have always used the ICD2.

"Oppie" wrote in message
news:l6F0j.6132$rg1.982@trndny04...

"Martin Riddle" wrote in message
news:hAp0j.9471$Mg1.7679@trndny03...

The ICD2 is RS232 and USB. It has its own micro inside, so Its not a
direct link to MPLAB.
The ICD2 also has its own driver to load to work with MPLAB.
I made the Tait programmer and used Davids software for 16F parts. For
the 18F parts I purchased the ICD2 and use the demo compiler.
Programs fast, but debugging is a little slow. (wish they had more break
points)

Cheers


Hi Martin,

We used the ICD2 for several projects with the same observations. Last
year Microchip released the Real ICE which has unlimited breakpoints and
runs fast. Cost is $500 - a drop in the bucket as far as professional
salaries go...
http://microchip.com/stellent/idcplg...ame =en028120

The tech support on the link above isn't worth wasting any time with, they
have no intention of supporting third party programmers and suggested I buy
a PICKit 2 but CBA mentioning the price or how/where to order in the UK,
also on downloading the PICKit 2 datasheet it appears to be SMT only which
is no use to me.

"ian field" wrote in message
...

"Oppie" wrote in message
news:l6F0j.6132$rg1.982@trndny04...

"Martin Riddle" wrote in message
news:hAp0j.9471$Mg1.7679@trndny03...

The ICD2 is RS232 and USB. It has its own micro inside, so Its not a
direct link to MPLAB.
The ICD2 also has its own driver to load to work with MPLAB.
I made the Tait programmer and used Davids software for 16F parts. For
the 18F parts I purchased the ICD2 and use the demo compiler.
Programs fast, but debugging is a little slow. (wish they had more break
points)

Cheers



We used the ICD2 for several projects with the same observations. Last
year Microchip released the Real ICE which has unlimited breakpoints and
runs fast. Cost is $500 - a drop in the bucket as far as professional
salaries go...
http://microchip.com/stellent/idcplg...ame =en028120

The tech support on the link above isn't worth wasting any time with, they
have no intention of supporting third party programmers and suggested I
buy a PICKit 2 but CBA mentioning the price or how/where to order in the
UK, also on downloading the PICKit 2 datasheet it appears to be SMT only
which is no use to me.

The link that I gave earlier of a schematic to a ICD2 was not for you to
build it, it was so you could rationalize the RS-232 connections for their
standard interface. Sorry if I did not make this clear - information
overload and all that...

All considered though, you can't go too terribly wrong with buying an ICD2
at $159(usd) and using it for either a programmer or debugger. (not allowed
as both functions in MPLAB in the last few years. Can only be Debugger OR
Programmer)

Cheers

"ian field" wrote in message
...
Does anyone have any info on whether MPLAB has RS232 compatible programmer
support?

Having downloaded a number of programmer schematics, I've found that a
couple (Serpic & David Tait) that are very similar to the Velleman K8048
and
wondered if this is some sort of industry standard.

If anyone is interested, the examples including Velleman K8048 schematic
are
easy to find with google.

The RS232 connector is as follows:

Pin7 (RTS); CLK/RB6/PGC
Pin4 (DTR); DATA/RB7/PGD
Pin8 (CTS); DATA/RB7/PGD
Pin3 (TXD); Pin3 & Pin9 hardwired together
Pin9 (RI); VPP/MCLR(NOT)

Each signal has a transistor buffer/level converter between the RS232
+-12V
and PIC logic levels.

TIA.


Just seen the post. No they don't. If your programmer isn't in the drop down
box in Mplab then forget it.
There are reasonably priced programmers out there that pretend to be a
'Picstart Plus' (say) but their makers have gone to the trouble of copying
the Mplab proprietry programming command and reply strings. Essentially the
copiers have had to clone a Mchip product, resulting in complexity and
unavoidable minimum costs.
There's no security or future proofing in exclusively using Mchip Mplab or
compatable proggers either. My ICD1 cost £125 and was obsoleted after 6
months when the better flash chips came out. I'm not shelling out again for
an ICD2.
The Picstart Plus I bought cost £150. Obsolete after a year. Mchip say
they've dealt with these type of problems but I've lost faith and don't
believe 'em.
At present I'm using a Picstart Plus clone but as I write and assemble my
progs outside Mplab then I get no benefit, as I have to start up Mplab
purely to prog a PIC. May as well be using one of the cheap programmers I
used before.
Commercially, a few hundred pounds here and there on Mchip kit can be
amortised over a product run of thousands and the customer pays. From a
hobby POV I'd suggest sticking with an external progger and putting up with
dropping in/out of Mplab to do your progging.

On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:23:05 GMT, "ian field"
wrote:


"petrus bitbyter" wrote in message
all.nl...

"ian field" schreef in bericht
...

"Oppie" wrote in message
news:fak0j.530$r81.32@trndny05...

"nospam" wrote in message
...
"ian field" wrote:


"Oppie" wrote in message
news:LJh0j.5915$rg1.4277@trndny04...
I have the Microchip ICD2 debugger which has both USB (preferred) and
RS-232 connectors. This works under MPLAB. I am pretty sure that the
connection preferences can be set in MPLAB under the programmer tab.
Cheers
Oppie

Thanks for confirming that RS232 is an option - do you have any info on
pin
implementation?

There is a Microchip appnote which describes a LPT programmer and
schematic,
does anyone know if it has a RS232 counterpart? - If anyone knows the
document number, I've probably already downlosded it.

The Microchip ICD2 is dirt cheap and you can buy Chinese clones of it
on
ebay for about 1/3rd of dirt cheap.

Hard to see how DIYing anything is worth the trouble and an ICD2 will
give
you in circuit debug too.

There are a bunch of hits for 'ICD2 schematic' found with Google.
Here's one http://www.nebadje.org/doku.php?id=neblab:icd2clone

Hope this helps you.
Still, as 'nospam' points out, the ICD2 is pretty inexpensive and used
ones should be out there.

Oppie


Thanks for the link, that's going to be a "later" project as I'd need a
programmer to program the onboard intelligence of that design.

Are any of the Microchip products "dumb programmers" where the signals on
the RS232 correspond directly with target PIC pins after level shifting -
i.e.:

RTS = RB6
DTR=RB7
&
TXD=VPP ?



Not directly, but http://www.oshonsoft.com/picprogserial.html comes close.
You need a handfull of electronics but no intelligence in the circuit. The
parallel served me well for some time.

petrus bitbyter


I already have a serial programmer - I was asking if MPLAB had a
compatibility mode I could use the Velleman K8048 board with or modify the
board to fit.


The answer is no. You cant do it.

You have a few choices, use the current software you have with you
current programmer OR buy the ICD2 (cheap) and use it with MPLAB.

I also have an old PicStart plus programmer which is serial, not sure
if you can still buy them, but either way it is still not compatible
with your programmer.

"The Real Andy" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:23:05 GMT, "ian field"
wrote:


"petrus bitbyter" wrote in
message
4all.nl...

"ian field" schreef in bericht
...

"Oppie" wrote in message
news:fak0j.530$r81.32@trndny05...

"nospam" wrote in message
...
"ian field" wrote:


"Oppie" wrote in message
news:LJh0j.5915$rg1.4277@trndny04...
I have the Microchip ICD2 debugger which has both USB (preferred)
and
RS-232 connectors. This works under MPLAB. I am pretty sure that the
connection preferences can be set in MPLAB under the programmer tab.
Cheers
Oppie

Thanks for confirming that RS232 is an option - do you have any info
on
pin
implementation?

There is a Microchip appnote which describes a LPT programmer and
schematic,
does anyone know if it has a RS232 counterpart? - If anyone knows the
document number, I've probably already downlosded it.

The Microchip ICD2 is dirt cheap and you can buy Chinese clones of it
on
ebay for about 1/3rd of dirt cheap.

Hard to see how DIYing anything is worth the trouble and an ICD2 will
give
you in circuit debug too.

There are a bunch of hits for 'ICD2 schematic' found with Google.
Here's one http://www.nebadje.org/doku.php?id=neblab:icd2clone

Hope this helps you.
Still, as 'nospam' points out, the ICD2 is pretty inexpensive and used
ones should be out there.

Oppie


Thanks for the link, that's going to be a "later" project as I'd need a
programmer to program the onboard intelligence of that design.

Are any of the Microchip products "dumb programmers" where the signals
on
the RS232 correspond directly with target PIC pins after level
shifting -
i.e.:

RTS = RB6
DTR=RB7
&
TXD=VPP ?



Not directly, but http://www.oshonsoft.com/picprogserial.html comes
close.
You need a handfull of electronics but no intelligence in the circuit.
The
parallel served me well for some time.

petrus bitbyter


I already have a serial programmer - I was asking if MPLAB had a
compatibility mode I could use the Velleman K8048 board with or modify the
board to fit.


The answer is no. You cant do it.

You have a few choices, use the current software you have with you
current programmer OR buy the ICD2 (cheap) and use it with MPLAB.

I also have an old PicStart plus programmer which is serial, not sure
if you can still buy them, but either way it is still not compatible
with your programmer.

It seems Microchip are not eager to sell me a programmer (the PICKit 2 was
suggested) but I have to phone Ireland from England and I have to have a
ticket number to do so.

The picture in the datasheet isn't very clear, but it looks like SMD only
development area - I'm still using only through hole parts so unless it
comes with an ICSP cable it isn't much use to me anyway.

Did I make a big mistake aiming to learn PIC instead of 805x based
microcontrollers?!

"Oppie" wrote in message
news:lsJ0j.2978$Jy1.2900@trndny02...

"ian field" wrote in message
...

"Oppie" wrote in message
news:l6F0j.6132$rg1.982@trndny04...

"Martin Riddle" wrote in message
news:hAp0j.9471$Mg1.7679@trndny03...

The ICD2 is RS232 and USB. It has its own micro inside, so Its not a
direct link to MPLAB.
The ICD2 also has its own driver to load to work with MPLAB.
I made the Tait programmer and used Davids software for 16F parts. For
the 18F parts I purchased the ICD2 and use the demo compiler.
Programs fast, but debugging is a little slow. (wish they had more
break points)

Cheers



We used the ICD2 for several projects with the same observations. Last
year Microchip released the Real ICE which has unlimited breakpoints and
runs fast. Cost is $500 - a drop in the bucket as far as professional
salaries go...
http://microchip.com/stellent/idcplg...ame =en028120

The tech support on the link above isn't worth wasting any time with,
they have no intention of supporting third party programmers and
suggested I buy a PICKit 2 but CBA mentioning the price or how/where to
order in the UK, also on downloading the PICKit 2 datasheet it appears to
be SMT only which is no use to me.

The link that I gave earlier of a schematic to a ICD2 was not for you to
build it, it was so you could rationalize the RS-232 connections for their
standard interface. Sorry if I did not make this clear - information
overload and all that...

All considered though, you can't go too terribly wrong with buying an ICD2
at $159(usd) and using it for either a programmer or debugger. (not
allowed as both functions in MPLAB in the last few years. Can only be
Debugger OR Programmer)

Cheers


It took a lot of trawling through loads of irrelevant information in the
data sheet to find any hint of whether the device serves the purpose I want,
and it looks as if the basic device only does half the job so the cost
rapidly spirals pout of control as you buy the add on modules. Microchip
make a big show of being nice guys - but they're not!

My reason for contacting tech support was to get a definitive answer to my
original question, the answer was that MPLAB does not support what appears
to be becoming an established standard, they suggested I buy the PICKit 2 -
but I have to phone a company in Ireland (from England) to discuss the
device capabilities and I have to get a ticket number to be put through!

If they're that determined not to sell me one - fine, I won't buy one!

"john jardine" wrote in message
...

"ian field" wrote in message
...
Does anyone have any info on whether MPLAB has RS232 compatible
programmer
support?

Having downloaded a number of programmer schematics, I've found that a
couple (Serpic & David Tait) that are very similar to the Velleman K8048
and
wondered if this is some sort of industry standard.

If anyone is interested, the examples including Velleman K8048 schematic
are
easy to find with google.

The RS232 connector is as follows:

Pin7 (RTS); CLK/RB6/PGC
Pin4 (DTR); DATA/RB7/PGD
Pin8 (CTS); DATA/RB7/PGD
Pin3 (TXD); Pin3 & Pin9 hardwired together
Pin9 (RI); VPP/MCLR(NOT)

Each signal has a transistor buffer/level converter between the RS232
+-12V
and PIC logic levels.

TIA.


Just seen the post. No they don't. If your programmer isn't in the drop
down
box in Mplab then forget it.
There are reasonably priced programmers out there that pretend to be a
'Picstart Plus' (say) but their makers have gone to the trouble of copying
the Mplab proprietry programming command and reply strings. Essentially
the
copiers have had to clone a Mchip product, resulting in complexity and
unavoidable minimum costs.
There's no security or future proofing in exclusively using Mchip Mplab or
compatable proggers either. My ICD1 cost £125 and was obsoleted after 6
months when the better flash chips came out. I'm not shelling out again
for
an ICD2.
The Picstart Plus I bought cost £150. Obsolete after a year. Mchip say
they've dealt with these type of problems but I've lost faith and don't
believe 'em.
At present I'm using a Picstart Plus clone but as I write and assemble my
progs outside Mplab then I get no benefit, as I have to start up Mplab
purely to prog a PIC. May as well be using one of the cheap programmers I
used before.
Commercially, a few hundred pounds here and there on Mchip kit can be
amortised over a product run of thousands and the customer pays. From a
hobby POV I'd suggest sticking with an external progger and putting up
with
dropping in/out of Mplab to do your progging.


Did I make a big mistake aiming to learn PIC?!

"ian field" wrote in message
...

[...]


Did I make a big mistake aiming to learn PIC?!



No. Not at all. The same unnecessary and wasteful learning curve applies to
any micro and in the more general case, applies to anything that concerns
programming.
Problem is (as you're finding!) you're now stepping from the up-front and
direct world of hardware engineering and entering the jealously guarded
ranks of the priesthood of programmers. Note the programmers will at ALL
times make efforts using ALL their meagre powers to prevent you joining
their ranks. For as one, they are greatly affeared that this upstart
newcomer will quickly see that the king has no clothes.
In view of this and needing to retain some semblance of sanity, I would
suggest adopting a practical attitude such that 99.9% of what you have yet
to read will consist of utter pretentious tripe (honestly!) and must be
ignored. Problem at this early stage is guessing where the good 0.1% lies

If you can survive this ******** and get through to flashing your first LED,
then please please, don't feel you've somehow 'paid your dues' and must now
join the darkside.
Freely pass the hard won knowledge on. If enough people do this then the
spurious domain of the programming priesthood will wither and die.

"ian field" schreef in bericht
...

"john jardine" wrote in message
...

"ian field" wrote in message
...
Does anyone have any info on whether MPLAB has RS232 compatible
programmer
support?

Having downloaded a number of programmer schematics, I've found that a
couple (Serpic & David Tait) that are very similar to the Velleman K8048
and
wondered if this is some sort of industry standard.

If anyone is interested, the examples including Velleman K8048 schematic
are
easy to find with google.

The RS232 connector is as follows:

Pin7 (RTS); CLK/RB6/PGC
Pin4 (DTR); DATA/RB7/PGD
Pin8 (CTS); DATA/RB7/PGD
Pin3 (TXD); Pin3 & Pin9 hardwired together
Pin9 (RI); VPP/MCLR(NOT)

Each signal has a transistor buffer/level converter between the RS232
+-12V
and PIC logic levels.

TIA.


Just seen the post. No they don't. If your programmer isn't in the drop
down
box in Mplab then forget it.
There are reasonably priced programmers out there that pretend to be a
'Picstart Plus' (say) but their makers have gone to the trouble of
copying
the Mplab proprietry programming command and reply strings. Essentially
the
copiers have had to clone a Mchip product, resulting in complexity and
unavoidable minimum costs.
There's no security or future proofing in exclusively using Mchip Mplab
or
compatable proggers either. My ICD1 cost £125 and was obsoleted after 6
months when the better flash chips came out. I'm not shelling out again
for
an ICD2.
The Picstart Plus I bought cost £150. Obsolete after a year. Mchip say
they've dealt with these type of problems but I've lost faith and don't
believe 'em.
At present I'm using a Picstart Plus clone but as I write and assemble my
progs outside Mplab then I get no benefit, as I have to start up Mplab
purely to prog a PIC. May as well be using one of the cheap programmers I
used before.
Commercially, a few hundred pounds here and there on Mchip kit can be
amortised over a product run of thousands and the customer pays. From a
hobby POV I'd suggest sticking with an external progger and putting up
with
dropping in/out of Mplab to do your progging.


Did I make a big mistake aiming to learn PIC?!


Sure you did. As would be for all the micros you try to learn. Try another
and you will run into similar problems. You will also learn that even the
most different micros have a lot in common as have their manufacturers.

What you want to achieve is available by third party companies. I remember I
used a Hi-Tech
http://www.htsoft.com/
PIC-compiler that made the combination you like. So after a successful
compilation the compiler give me the choice to go to an external (Hi-Lo)
programmer (or an ICE or whatever) but also gave me the choice to return to
the editor to modify the program. It was all in its IDE. Hi-Tech and others
have this kind of programs for a lot of commonly available micros.

FAIK the PIC is the most widespread among hobbyists as they were the first
that had relatively cheap and easy to program micros. They also published
the programming algorithms instead of keeping them secret which was usual at
the time. I remember I looked for the 8751 programming algorithm but no
luck. So I used a 8031 and an EPROM. Some time later my employer buyed a
huge DATA IO Unisite which could handle almost all programmable components
of that time.

As for Microchip, I don't expect them to support external programmers from
their IDE. The ICD2 has been cloned, but I don't see it to make highway. I'm
sure the communication protocol has been hacked but I could not find it (I
did not try hard). Oshonsoft sells what you want but I consider the number
of supported types too small.
http://www.oshonsoft.com/pic.html

petrus bitbyter

On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 16:03:05 GMT, "ian field"
wrote:


"The Real Andy" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:23:05 GMT, "ian field"
wrote:


"petrus bitbyter" wrote in
message
s4all.nl...

"ian field" schreef in bericht
...

"Oppie" wrote in message
news:fak0j.530$r81.32@trndny05...

"nospam" wrote in message
...
"ian field" wrote:


"Oppie" wrote in message
news:LJh0j.5915$rg1.4277@trndny04...
I have the Microchip ICD2 debugger which has both USB (preferred)
and
RS-232 connectors. This works under MPLAB. I am pretty sure that the
connection preferences can be set in MPLAB under the programmer tab.
Cheers
Oppie

Thanks for confirming that RS232 is an option - do you have any info
on
pin
implementation?

There is a Microchip appnote which describes a LPT programmer and
schematic,
does anyone know if it has a RS232 counterpart? - If anyone knows the
document number, I've probably already downlosded it.

The Microchip ICD2 is dirt cheap and you can buy Chinese clones of it
on
ebay for about 1/3rd of dirt cheap.

Hard to see how DIYing anything is worth the trouble and an ICD2 will
give
you in circuit debug too.

There are a bunch of hits for 'ICD2 schematic' found with Google.
Here's one http://www.nebadje.org/doku.php?id=neblab:icd2clone

Hope this helps you.
Still, as 'nospam' points out, the ICD2 is pretty inexpensive and used
ones should be out there.

Oppie


Thanks for the link, that's going to be a "later" project as I'd need a
programmer to program the onboard intelligence of that design.

Are any of the Microchip products "dumb programmers" where the signals
on
the RS232 correspond directly with target PIC pins after level
shifting -
i.e.:

RTS = RB6
DTR=RB7
&
TXD=VPP ?



Not directly, but http://www.oshonsoft.com/picprogserial.html comes
close.
You need a handfull of electronics but no intelligence in the circuit.
The
parallel served me well for some time.

petrus bitbyter


I already have a serial programmer - I was asking if MPLAB had a
compatibility mode I could use the Velleman K8048 board with or modify the
board to fit.


The answer is no. You cant do it.

You have a few choices, use the current software you have with you
current programmer OR buy the ICD2 (cheap) and use it with MPLAB.

I also have an old PicStart plus programmer which is serial, not sure
if you can still buy them, but either way it is still not compatible
with your programmer.

It seems Microchip are not eager to sell me a programmer (the PICKit 2 was
suggested) but I have to phone Ireland from England and I have to have a
ticket number to do so.

The picture in the datasheet isn't very clear, but it looks like SMD only
development area - I'm still using only through hole parts so unless it
comes with an ICSP cable it isn't much use to me anyway.

Did I make a big mistake aiming to learn PIC instead of 805x based
microcontrollers?!


Its like any company. Did you learnt the PIC for a hobby or because
you want to build a 100k units?

"The Real Andy" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 16:03:05 GMT, "ian field"
wrote:


"The Real Andy" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:23:05 GMT, "ian field"
wrote:


"petrus bitbyter" wrote in
message
. xs4all.nl...

"ian field" schreef in bericht
...

"Oppie" wrote in message
news:fak0j.530$r81.32@trndny05...

"nospam" wrote in message
...
"ian field" wrote:


"Oppie" wrote in message
news:LJh0j.5915$rg1.4277@trndny04...
I have the Microchip ICD2 debugger which has both USB (preferred)
and
RS-232 connectors. This works under MPLAB. I am pretty sure that
the
connection preferences can be set in MPLAB under the programmer
tab.
Cheers
Oppie

Thanks for confirming that RS232 is an option - do you have any
info
on
pin
implementation?

There is a Microchip appnote which describes a LPT programmer and
schematic,
does anyone know if it has a RS232 counterpart? - If anyone knows
the
document number, I've probably already downlosded it.

The Microchip ICD2 is dirt cheap and you can buy Chinese clones of
it
on
ebay for about 1/3rd of dirt cheap.

Hard to see how DIYing anything is worth the trouble and an ICD2
will
give
you in circuit debug too.

There are a bunch of hits for 'ICD2 schematic' found with Google.
Here's one http://www.nebadje.org/doku.php?id=neblab:icd2clone

Hope this helps you.
Still, as 'nospam' points out, the ICD2 is pretty inexpensive and
used
ones should be out there.

Oppie


Thanks for the link, that's going to be a "later" project as I'd need
a
programmer to program the onboard intelligence of that design.

Are any of the Microchip products "dumb programmers" where the
signals
on
the RS232 correspond directly with target PIC pins after level
shifting -
i.e.:

RTS = RB6
DTR=RB7
&
TXD=VPP ?



Not directly, but http://www.oshonsoft.com/picprogserial.html comes
close.
You need a handfull of electronics but no intelligence in the circuit.
The
parallel served me well for some time.

petrus bitbyter


I already have a serial programmer - I was asking if MPLAB had a
compatibility mode I could use the Velleman K8048 board with or modify
the
board to fit.


The answer is no. You cant do it.

You have a few choices, use the current software you have with you
current programmer OR buy the ICD2 (cheap) and use it with MPLAB.

I also have an old PicStart plus programmer which is serial, not sure
if you can still buy them, but either way it is still not compatible
with your programmer.

It seems Microchip are not eager to sell me a programmer (the PICKit 2 was
suggested) but I have to phone Ireland from England and I have to have a
ticket number to do so.

The picture in the datasheet isn't very clear, but it looks like SMD only
development area - I'm still using only through hole parts so unless it
comes with an ICSP cable it isn't much use to me anyway.

Did I make a big mistake aiming to learn PIC instead of 805x based
microcontrollers?!


Its like any company. Did you learnt the PIC for a hobby or because
you want to build a 100k units?

At the moment I haven't learned yet so I don't know whether I'll get good
enough to design professionally. Microchip make big donations to
universities to pose as the good guys while bribing the uni to take a
product placement, but for people like me they just CBA!

"john jardine" wrote in message
...

"ian field" wrote in message
...

[...]


Did I make a big mistake aiming to learn PIC?!




snip

If you can survive this ******** and get through to flashing your first
LED,
then please please, don't feel you've somehow 'paid your dues' and must
now
join the darkside.
Freely pass the hard won knowledge on. If enough people do this then the
spurious domain of the programming priesthood will wither and die.

Obviously at this stage I have nothing to contribute in that regard, but for
anyone who might be interested Everyday Practical Electronics magazine has
this year replaced its electronics teach in series with a PIC teach in, its
now on its 2nd instalment in the most recent issue.

One thing I don't get, in a programming example they show multiple
iterations of the ORG instruction, that doesn't match the explanation of ORG
I got elsewhere.

One thing I don't get, in a programming example they show multiple
iterations of the ORG instruction, that doesn't match the explanation of ORG
I got elsewhere.

Assembler languages allow such flexibility and it can be handy for
coding close to the hardware.

The ORG specifies where in the program storage the following code is
to be stored.


John Ferrell W8CCW
"Life is easier if you learn to
plow around the stumps"

On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 14:07:23 GMT, "ian field"
wrote:


"The Real Andy" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 16:03:05 GMT, "ian field"
wrote:


"The Real Andy" wrote in message
news On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:23:05 GMT, "ian field"
wrote:


"petrus bitbyter" wrote in
message
.xs4all.nl...

"ian field" schreef in bericht
...

"Oppie" wrote in message
news:fak0j.530$r81.32@trndny05...

"nospam" wrote in message
...
"ian field" wrote:


"Oppie" wrote in message
news:LJh0j.5915$rg1.4277@trndny04...
I have the Microchip ICD2 debugger which has both USB (preferred)
and
RS-232 connectors. This works under MPLAB. I am pretty sure that
the
connection preferences can be set in MPLAB under the programmer
tab.
Cheers
Oppie

Thanks for confirming that RS232 is an option - do you have any
info
on
pin
implementation?

There is a Microchip appnote which describes a LPT programmer and
schematic,
does anyone know if it has a RS232 counterpart? - If anyone knows
the
document number, I've probably already downlosded it.

The Microchip ICD2 is dirt cheap and you can buy Chinese clones of
it
on
ebay for about 1/3rd of dirt cheap.

Hard to see how DIYing anything is worth the trouble and an ICD2
will
give
you in circuit debug too.

There are a bunch of hits for 'ICD2 schematic' found with Google.
Here's one http://www.nebadje.org/doku.php?id=neblab:icd2clone

Hope this helps you.
Still, as 'nospam' points out, the ICD2 is pretty inexpensive and
used
ones should be out there.

Oppie


Thanks for the link, that's going to be a "later" project as I'd need
a
programmer to program the onboard intelligence of that design.

Are any of the Microchip products "dumb programmers" where the
signals
on
the RS232 correspond directly with target PIC pins after level
shifting -
i.e.:

RTS = RB6
DTR=RB7
&
TXD=VPP ?



Not directly, but http://www.oshonsoft.com/picprogserial.html comes
close.
You need a handfull of electronics but no intelligence in the circuit.
The
parallel served me well for some time.

petrus bitbyter


I already have a serial programmer - I was asking if MPLAB had a
compatibility mode I could use the Velleman K8048 board with or modify
the
board to fit.


The answer is no. You cant do it.

You have a few choices, use the current software you have with you
current programmer OR buy the ICD2 (cheap) and use it with MPLAB.

I also have an old PicStart plus programmer which is serial, not sure
if you can still buy them, but either way it is still not compatible
with your programmer.

It seems Microchip are not eager to sell me a programmer (the PICKit 2 was
suggested) but I have to phone Ireland from England and I have to have a
ticket number to do so.

The picture in the datasheet isn't very clear, but it looks like SMD only
development area - I'm still using only through hole parts so unless it
comes with an ICSP cable it isn't much use to me anyway.

Did I make a big mistake aiming to learn PIC instead of 805x based
microcontrollers?!


Its like any company. Did you learnt the PIC for a hobby or because
you want to build a 100k units?

At the moment I haven't learned yet so I don't know whether I'll get good
enough to design professionally. Microchip make big donations to
universities to pose as the good guys while bribing the uni to take a
product placement, but for people like me they just CBA!


I have never had a problem with them. I placed an order online for
their ICD2 and a week and a half later it arrived in Australia from
the US. IF you dont like the service, go with the 805x.

"John Ferrell" wrote in message
...


One thing I don't get, in a programming example they show multiple
iterations of the ORG instruction, that doesn't match the explanation of
ORG
I got elsewhere.

Assembler languages allow such flexibility and it can be handy for
coding close to the hardware.

The ORG specifies where in the program storage the following code is
to be stored.

The tutorial I'm reading doesn't explain the reason for an ORG at 0 and a
further 2 more for reset & interrupt vectors, before I try coding a program
for myself I'd like to understand the rules and all the tutorials I've found
just give example code in wildly differing layouts without any explanation
of why its done the way it is.

On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 21:36:37 GMT, "ian field"
wrote:



The tutorial I'm reading doesn't explain the reason for an ORG at 0 and a
further 2 more for reset & interrupt vectors, before I try coding a program
for myself I'd like to understand the rules and all the tutorials I've found
just give example code in wildly differing layouts without any explanation
of why its done the way it is.

I think your question is a very good question.
Here is the way it works:
The ORG does not generate code. It instructs the Compiler to generate
code that is stored at a particular location. The ORG 0 says the put
this code starting at physical storage location 0.

These different interrupt code locations (vectors) allow external
events to be recognized and acknowledged without the need for the cpu
to expend resources watching for an event.

Without ORG's it would be necessary to pad unused storage manually to
put the appropriate code in the proper location.

John Ferrell W8CCW
"Life is easier if you learn to
plow around the stumps"

"ian field" wrote in message
...
[...]
One thing I don't get, in a programming example they show multiple
iterations of the ORG instruction, that doesn't match the explanation of
ORG
I got elsewhere.

Well at this early stage 2nd instalment, they damned well shouldn't be.
The "ORG (origin) xxxx" fixes the location where your following instructions
are poked into the PIC memory. You can use it hundreds of times if you wish,
though god knows why anyone would want to.
The ones liable to turn up are listed below and are shown in that stupid
f****** hexadecimal the priesthood insist on using. (from recall of 16F
series PICs I use)
#ORG 0#
Progs start at "ORG 0", i.e. the first memory location the PIC will read
after power up.
#ORG 4#
If you're thinking of using 'interrupts' then you'll need an "ORG 4". This
is the fixed memory location that the PIC is forced to jump back to when a
(previously set-up) 'interrupt' happens. If no ints are set-up then the prog
starts at 0 and just runs upwards.
If EPE have used an 'ORG 4' then the previous instruction (location 3 )will
be a 'jump over the complete interrupt routine'. eg ...
ORG 0
....
GOTO Fred ;the jump over
----------------------------------
ORG 4 ;forced start of EPE's int routine
....
RETFIE ;end of EPE's int routine
----------------------------------
Fred: ;jumps to here and is usually the real program 'Start'
....

#ORG 2007#
DW 0x0D41 ;Where the 'config' bit settings hang out.(crystal type etc)
;(example number is from a 16F873A I did last week)

#ORG 2100# ;(where you can 'prefill' the the EEPROM memory with cal' data
etc
DW 1
DW 2
DW 3
....

On much bigger progs an 'ORG xxxx' can be used to load a complete routine
into a higher bank of memory and saves a lot of buggering about with
continual 'bank switching'.
If at all possible though, try and avoid using the higher memory banks. This
essentially limits the useable PIC memory to 1/4 or 1/2 of that advertised
(and paid for!) but can save a LOT of grief and tears.
There again though, if you get to that stage then you'll have already got
the T shirt

"John Ferrell" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 21:36:37 GMT, "ian field"
wrote:



The tutorial I'm reading doesn't explain the reason for an ORG at 0 and a
further 2 more for reset & interrupt vectors, before I try coding a
program
for myself I'd like to understand the rules and all the tutorials I've
found
just give example code in wildly differing layouts without any explanation
of why its done the way it is.

I think your question is a very good question.
Here is the way it works:
The ORG does not generate code. It instructs the Compiler to generate
code that is stored at a particular location. The ORG 0 says the put
this code starting at physical storage location 0.

These different interrupt code locations (vectors) allow external
events to be recognized and acknowledged without the need for the cpu
to expend resources watching for an event.

Without ORG's it would be necessary to pad unused storage manually to
put the appropriate code in the proper location.

Thanks, its starting to make sense, I think there were branches to the start
point of the program proper as it was a simple "flash a LED" program which
didn't use the vectors for anything else, it still seems to be a simple
instruction with a lot of complexity about it though.

"john jardine" wrote in message
...

"ian field" wrote in message
...
[...]
One thing I don't get, in a programming example they show multiple
iterations of the ORG instruction, that doesn't match the explanation of
ORG
I got elsewhere.

Well at this early stage 2nd instalment, they damned well shouldn't be.
The "ORG (origin) xxxx" fixes the location where your following
instructions
are poked into the PIC memory. You can use it hundreds of times if you
wish,
though god knows why anyone would want to.
The ones liable to turn up are listed below and are shown in that stupid
f****** hexadecimal the priesthood insist on using. (from recall of 16F
series PICs I use)
#ORG 0#
Progs start at "ORG 0", i.e. the first memory location the PIC will read
after power up.
#ORG 4#
If you're thinking of using 'interrupts' then you'll need an "ORG 4".
This
is the fixed memory location that the PIC is forced to jump back to when a
(previously set-up) 'interrupt' happens. If no ints are set-up then the
prog
starts at 0 and just runs upwards.
If EPE have used an 'ORG 4' then the previous instruction (location
3 )will
be a 'jump over the complete interrupt routine'. eg ...
ORG 0
...
GOTO Fred ;the jump over
----------------------------------
ORG 4 ;forced start of EPE's int routine
...
RETFIE ;end of EPE's int routine
----------------------------------
Fred: ;jumps to here and is usually the real program 'Start'
...

#ORG 2007#
DW 0x0D41 ;Where the 'config' bit settings hang out.(crystal type etc)
;(example number is from a 16F873A I did last week)

#ORG 2100# ;(where you can 'prefill' the the EEPROM memory with cal'
data
etc
DW 1
DW 2
DW 3
...

On much bigger progs an 'ORG xxxx' can be used to load a complete routine
into a higher bank of memory and saves a lot of buggering about with
continual 'bank switching'.
If at all possible though, try and avoid using the higher memory banks.
This
essentially limits the useable PIC memory to 1/4 or 1/2 of that advertised
(and paid for!) but can save a LOT of grief and tears.
There again though, if you get to that stage then you'll have already got
the T shirt

Thanks - why the hell couldn't any of the tutorials have told me that?!

Most of it probably isn't needed until the student reaches a more advanced
level, but when the tutorial introduces necessary instructions without any
explanations of their purpose, saying "just work around it for now" isn't
good enough, to my mind just entering code parrot fashion isn't learning.

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 16:12:31 GMT, "ian field"
wrote:


Thanks - why the hell couldn't any of the tutorials have told me that?!

Most of it probably isn't needed until the student reaches a more advanced
level, but when the tutorial introduces necessary instructions without any
explanations of their purpose, saying "just work around it for now" isn't
good enough, to my mind just entering code parrot fashion isn't learning.

I like to think of learning each new subject like peeling an orange.
Before you achieve the full experience you will have to peel the whole
thing. However, you can get a taste by just removing a small piece of
the peel.

I keep notes as I go regarding what I don't know.
An example: Most of us write our first program in a new language as a
"Hello World". With embedded programming it is a "blink a led".

Interrupts, watch dog timers, pulse width modulation and process
control loops are each steps that need to be understood but can be
deferred a while.

There really is no end to learning embedded processing!

John Ferrell W8CCW
"Life is easier if you learn to
plow around the stumps"

"John Ferrell" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 16:12:31 GMT, "ian field"
wrote:


Thanks - why the hell couldn't any of the tutorials have told me that?!

Most of it probably isn't needed until the student reaches a more advanced
level, but when the tutorial introduces necessary instructions without any
explanations of their purpose, saying "just work around it for now" isn't
good enough, to my mind just entering code parrot fashion isn't learning.

I like to think of learning each new subject like peeling an orange.
Before you achieve the full experience you will have to peel the whole
thing. However, you can get a taste by just removing a small piece of
the peel.

I keep notes as I go regarding what I don't know.
An example: Most of us write our first program in a new language as a
"Hello World". With embedded programming it is a "blink a led".

Interrupts, watch dog timers, pulse width modulation and process
control loops are each steps that need to be understood but can be
deferred a while.

There really is no end to learning embedded processing!

At some point I'll take time off reading as many tutorials as I can find and
type in a ready made "flash a LED" program, but I'd like to get the
instructions I don't understand down to a minimum by then.

At some point I'll take time off reading as many tutorials as I can find and
type in a ready made "flash a LED" program, but I'd like to get the
instructions I don't understand down to a minimum by then.

We don't all have that much discipline!

I like to flash a light or wiggle something to help motivate me into
reading more....

Wiggling an RC Servo is another Lab project. I have not found anything
especially useful with this project because controlling one servo is
not enough and more than one gets complicated in a hurry!

John Ferrell W8CCW
"Life is easier if you learn to
plow around the stumps"

"John Ferrell" wrote in message
...


At some point I'll take time off reading as many tutorials as I can find
and
type in a ready made "flash a LED" program, but I'd like to get the
instructions I don't understand down to a minimum by then.

We don't all have that much discipline!

Reading about it instead of plugging the soldering iron in and doing
something reminds me of the last time I tried to quit smoking!


I like to flash a light or wiggle something to help motivate me into
reading more.

At the moment its like a war on several fronts, reading the tutorials I'm
beginning to remember the instruction names & what they do but there are
lots of things that have to be learned side by side, like how to "drive"
MPLAB and probably how to plan routines with flowcharts - just to name a few
I can think of off hand....

Wiggling an RC Servo is another Lab project. I have not found anything
especially useful with this project because controlling one servo is
not enough and more than one gets complicated in a hurry!

It'll probably get harder before it gets easier on my way to that level!

John Ferrell W8CCW
"Life is easier if you learn to
plow around the stumps"

"Oppie" wrote in message
news:lbF0j.6133$rg1.5870@trndny04...

"ian field" wrote in message
...

What I have is a Velleman K8048 programmer which only level shifts
certain pins on the RS232 connector to 5V logic level and feeds the
resultant signals to the PGD, PGC & VPP pins on the PIC - I was hoping
MPLAB had a compatibility mode for such a "dumb" programmer board.

Obviously the Velleman kit came with programming software, and the kit
schematic is almost identical to a couple of others I've downloaded, but
if a new PIC is introduced I'd have to trawl the net for programmer
software to support it, if it was easy to modify my kit to work with
MPLAB this would be a much simpler problem.

I can only recommend that you contact Microchip tech support and ask. We
have always used the ICD2.

My original enquiry to tech support was whether there was any third party
compatibility in MPLAB - eventually after a bit of pulling toenails they
told me no, so I asked where to order a MPLAB compatible programmer and they
gave me a number in Ireland (long distance from England) and I have to quote
a ticket number to be put through! So I tried emailing sales and asked "what
is the cheapest MPLAB compatible PIC programmer with a ICSP lead", they told
me to get a ticket number and phone tech support - Microchip has the most
"not me guv" departments of any company I've tried to deal with!

"ian field" wrote in message
...

"Oppie" wrote in message
news:lbF0j.6133$rg1.5870@trndny04...

"ian field" wrote in message
...

What I have is a Velleman K8048 programmer which only level shifts
certain pins on the RS232 connector to 5V logic level and feeds the
resultant signals to the PGD, PGC & VPP pins on the PIC - I was hoping
MPLAB had a compatibility mode for such a "dumb" programmer board.

Obviously the Velleman kit came with programming software, and the kit
schematic is almost identical to a couple of others I've downloaded, but
if a new PIC is introduced I'd have to trawl the net for programmer
software to support it, if it was easy to modify my kit to work with
MPLAB this would be a much simpler problem.

I can only recommend that you contact Microchip tech support and ask. We
have always used the ICD2.

My original enquiry to tech support was whether there was any third party
compatibility in MPLAB - eventually after a bit of pulling toenails they
told me no, so I asked where to order a MPLAB compatible programmer and
they gave me a number in Ireland (long distance from England) and I have
to quote a ticket number to be put through! So I tried emailing sales and
asked "what is the cheapest MPLAB compatible PIC programmer with a ICSP
lead", they told me to get a ticket number and phone tech support -
Microchip has the most "not me guv" departments of any company I've tried
to deal with!

Have you tried these guys http://www.mikroe.com/
They do IDE/Compiler for Basic/C/Pascal - I personally use the Pascal as it
is "Delphi like", I use Delphi for commercial apps.
By the way their PIC stuff is free!