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Wood Floor Question
I have a wood floor to install,
The client chose a pre-finished 3/4 oak. Now I understand acclimation and such. On one hand a friend of mine who is into wood floors for years, and had a business making wood flooring say's you do not have to acclimate pre-finished wood flooring. When I read a manual on installing wood floors it says to "acclimate" it. Who or what is the best practice? john |
Wood Floor Question
On Wed, 12 Dec 2012 07:24:31 -0800, jloomis wrote:
I have a wood floor to install, The client chose a pre-finished 3/4 oak. Now I understand acclimation and such. On one hand a friend of mine who is into wood floors for years, and had a business making wood flooring say's you do not have to acclimate pre-finished wood flooring. When I read a manual on installing wood floors it says to "acclimate" it. Who or what is the best practice? john I would acclimate it, better safe than sorry, at the worst acclimating the flooring would do nothing. basilisk |
Wood Floor Question
On 12/12/2012 9:24 AM, jloomis wrote:
I have a wood floor to install, The client chose a pre-finished 3/4 oak. Now I understand acclimation and such. On one hand a friend of mine who is into wood floors for years, and had a business making wood flooring say's you do not have to acclimate pre-finished wood flooring. When I read a manual on installing wood floors it says to "acclimate" it. Who or what is the best practice? Acclimate ... -- eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) |
Wood Floor Question
"jloomis" wrote in message ... I have a wood floor to install, The client chose a pre-finished 3/4 oak. Now I understand acclimation and such. On one hand a friend of mine who is into wood floors for years, and had a business making wood flooring say's you do not have to acclimate pre-finished wood flooring. When I read a manual on installing wood floors it says to "acclimate" it. Who or what is the best practice? john If it's prefinished solid wood flooring acclimate it.... If it's thick laminate flooring it may still benefit from being acclimated if there were significant climatic differences between the source storage conditions and the conditions where it is to be installed. Either way, opening the bundles and letting the flooring acclimate for at least a couple days will not hurt! John |
Wood Floor Question/Agree with Acclimation
Yes, I do agree. It was just that I had a window of opportunity to
do the floor before Christmas, and my client was antsy.... I calmed them down, and will wait until Jan. to install. That way the wood will be allowed to accrue the ambient temp, and moisture of the house, and hopefully work out just fine. john thanks for the notes "jloomis" wrote in message ... I have a wood floor to install, The client chose a pre-finished 3/4 oak. Now I understand acclimation and such. On one hand a friend of mine who is into wood floors for years, and had a business making wood flooring say's you do not have to acclimate pre-finished wood flooring. When I read a manual on installing wood floors it says to "acclimate" it. Who or what is the best practice? john |
Wood Floor Question/Agree with Acclimation
On 12/12/2012 3:06 PM, jloomis wrote:
Yes, I do agree. It was just that I had a window of opportunity to do the floor before Christmas, and my client was antsy.... I calmed them down, and will wait until Jan. to install. That way the wood will be allowed to accrue the ambient temp, and moisture of the house, and hopefully work out just fine. john thanks for the notes Add my vote for "acclimate" to the rest, John. Makes no sense no to do so. That said, I don't know that I'd worry about leaving it stacked to acclimate more than a couple of day (assuming it hadn't been stored in the bottom of their fish pondg) Just because your buddy installed floors for years, doesn't necessarily mean that he was doing it correctly. When had the slab for my garage/shop poured I wanted a moisture barrier beneath the shop portion. The concrete contractor, who did great work, told me it was totally unnecessary as "water cannot penetrate concrete." Yeah, uh, right! |
Wood Floor Question/Agree with Acclimation
When it comes to vapor barriers and concrete.
I agree. My friend ran Sandy Pond Hardwoods, and actually manufactured wood flooring. He has 30 years experience in installation, hardwoods, laminate, etc. He was very careful to let me know that it was not necessary.... So, I do understand our reasoning in acclimation, and then from an experienced floor person, I get yet another opinion. hummmmmmm I was actually hoping to get some work prior to Christmas...... Well, now that I got the pro's and con's, I have made up my mind to let the floor acclimate, and work after Christmas. john "Unquestionably Confused" wrote in message .com... On 12/12/2012 3:06 PM, jloomis wrote: Yes, I do agree. It was just that I had a window of opportunity to do the floor before Christmas, and my client was antsy.... I calmed them down, and will wait until Jan. to install. That way the wood will be allowed to accrue the ambient temp, and moisture of the house, and hopefully work out just fine. john thanks for the notes Add my vote for "acclimate" to the rest, John. Makes no sense no to do so. That said, I don't know that I'd worry about leaving it stacked to acclimate more than a couple of day (assuming it hadn't been stored in the bottom of their fish pondg) Just because your buddy installed floors for years, doesn't necessarily mean that he was doing it correctly. When had the slab for my garage/shop poured I wanted a moisture barrier beneath the shop portion. The concrete contractor, who did great work, told me it was totally unnecessary as "water cannot penetrate concrete." Yeah, uh, right! |
Wood Floor Question/Agree with Acclimation
You are correct here.
Yes, my friend, "actually brother-in-law" installed "high End" floor systems, and none of them are a problem. I was surprised by his answer that with pre-finished oak, 3/4" you do not need to acclimate it! I was suspect, and reading advice in online manuals, they all say, acclimate. Then when I thought about it, the wood needs to be dry before finishing it. right? And the wood had gone through its movements. right? And unless the wood was stored in a pond, or a damp garage in the must and mold, it should be fine. right? He said the only problem with installing un-acclimated wood is when you install unfinished wood flooring. Now the more I think about this, the more I believe him. I tell you, I never thought I would get so many opinions, and the one that sticks is the one from a person who has installed thousands of sq. ft. hummmm???? john "Mike Marlow" wrote in message ... Unquestionably Confused wrote: Just because your buddy installed floors for years, doesn't necessarily mean that he was doing it correctly. That is the quintensential non-argument. Just because he's done it dosen't mean he was doing it correctly - what does that mean? If he has had no problems, then he has done it every bit as correctly as anything you would suggest. After all - just because your suggestions have been around for a long time does not mean they are correct. What else do we go on, except for experience? Why do we look to people like Karl and Leon for their experiences? Yet - you summarily dismiss this contractor that you don't even know. When had the slab for my garage/shop poured I wanted a moisture barrier beneath the shop portion. The concrete contractor, who did great work, told me it was totally unnecessary as "water cannot penetrate concrete." Yeah, uh, right! You might want to ask him more about what he was speaking about. There are way too many old wives tales about how things should be done, which hold no water, than there are real and factual practices. If your concete contractor is as incompetent as you allude he is, why in the hell did you use him? But - it does make a good usenet story, doesn't it? -- -Mike- |
Wood Floor Question/Agree with Acclimation
jloomis wrote:
When it comes to vapor barriers and concrete. I agree. My friend ran Sandy Pond Hardwoods, and actually manufactured wood flooring. He has 30 years experience in installation, hardwoods, laminate, etc. He was very careful to let me know that it was not necessary.... So, I do understand our reasoning in acclimation, and then from an experienced floor person, I get yet another opinion. hummmmmmm I was actually hoping to get some work prior to Christmas...... Well, now that I got the pro's and con's, I have made up my mind to let the floor acclimate, and work after Christmas. Be very careful who/what you consider to be the "pros" here. There are far more non-pros here than there are pros. Even within the ranks of the pros, there is far less factual information behind their recommendations than real fact. On the other hand - there are those who have detemined some best practices, and share those - complete with consdierations that may or may not apply to your location. Be wary of the "experts" that attempt to simply throw out an answer. -- -Mike- |
Wood Floor Question/Agree with Acclimation
On 12/13/2012 12:10 PM, jloomis wrote:
Then when I thought about it, the wood needs to be dry before finishing it. right? And the wood had gone through its movements. right? And unless the wood was stored in a pond, or a damp garage in the must and mold, it should be fine. right? He said the only problem with installing un-acclimated wood is when you install unfinished wood flooring. Now the more I think about this, the more I believe him. I tell you, I never thought I would get so many opinions, and the one that sticks is the one from a person who has installed thousands of sq. ft. hummmm???? No hmmm about it, John ... he may know floors, but he apparently does not fully understand WOOD. :) The following is an absolutely unarguable FACT: "Finish will slow the rate of moisture exchange, it will not stop it. Material finished on all surfaces will expand or contract at a slower rate than raw wood, but finished wood will eventually acclimate to EMC levels." "Finishes cannot change EMC; they affect only the rate at which absorption and desorption occur". The above quoteS are almost verbatim from the US Forest Products Laboratory. So, as I said before, and if you want to do the job properly ... "acclimate". (as a GC who pays attention to such details, I've caused, and bought, many thousands of board feet of flooring of all types to be installed; stubbed my toe once or twice, but never over the same issue more than once ... and I routinely acclimate pre-finished flooring ... it's simply cheaper in the long run to do so) AND: !!!especially if you want to maintain the manufacturer's warranty!!! G -- eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) |
Wood Floor Question/Agree with Acclimation
On 12/13/2012 09:03 AM, jloomis wrote:
When it comes to vapor barriers and concrete. I agree. My friend ran Sandy Pond Hardwoods, and actually manufactured wood flooring. He has 30 years experience in installation, hardwoods, laminate, etc. He was very careful to let me know that it was not necessary.... So, I do understand our reasoning in acclimation, and then from an experienced floor person, I get yet another opinion. hummmmmmm I was actually hoping to get some work prior to Christmas...... Well, now that I got the pro's and con's, I have made up my mind to let the floor acclimate, and work after Christmas. The whole point of acclimation is so any expansion/shrinkage due to a large variation in the EMC can happen up front. If it's a floating floor, I'd think a guy could probably lay 95% of it down, leaving just the last few courses at the far edge undone. Then let it sit, and move as it will. After a week, come back and finish up the remaining runs. As long as there's plenty of room for expansion and the opportunity to fill in if it shrinks I'd think you'd be good to go... ....Kevin -- Kevin Miller Juneau, Alaska http://www.alaska.net/~atftb "In the history of the world, no one has ever washed a rented car." - Lawrence Summers |
Wood Floor Question/Agree with Acclimation
On 12/13/2012 1:37 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
jloomis wrote: When it comes to vapor barriers and concrete. I agree. My friend ran Sandy Pond Hardwoods, and actually manufactured wood flooring. He has 30 years experience in installation, hardwoods, laminate, etc. He was very careful to let me know that it was not necessary.... So, I do understand our reasoning in acclimation, and then from an experienced floor person, I get yet another opinion. hummmmmmm I was actually hoping to get some work prior to Christmas...... Well, now that I got the pro's and con's, I have made up my mind to let the floor acclimate, and work after Christmas. Be very careful who/what you consider to be the "pros" here. There are far more non-pros here than there are pros. John is likely one of the very few pro's here. Even within the ranks of the pros, there is far less factual information behind their recommendations than real fact. On the other hand - there are those who have detemined some best practices, and share those - complete with consdierations that may or may not apply to your location. Be wary of the "experts" that attempt to simply throw out an answer. I give you +1 for this and another +1 for your previous answer. However, I'm deducting 2 points for yellin at John for posting a picture that actually did contain a tree, and not one post on this topic contained a picture of anything tree related or not. No, now that I think about it I'm deducting 3 points for that, so you are down 1:-) As far as acclimation, I agree with the guy that manufactured and installed floors for 30+ years, and more over, would ask, acclimate to what? Winter? Summer, air on, air off? Exposed to sun, in the shade, what exactly? I would worry more about where it was made, dried and stored (rain forest/desert/down the road a bit) than if I left it alone for a few days. Solid wood will move finished or not, so install with that in mind. Moreover moreover, I've installed two prefinished floors in my life, did not acclimate anything on purpose, and had no problems. I also don't acclimate anything I make in my wood shop, on purpose. Slow as I am, acclimation usually occurs w/o intent, but the emc changes with the weather any way. So who would you believe, me, or a manufacturer/installer that is a friend? If it were me and I had other work I wanted to do first, I'd acclimate, if not, I would take the professional friends advice and get it on. -- Jack Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life. http://jbstein.com |
Wood Floor Question/Agree with Acclimation
You raise a good point.
That is the entire argument from my brother-in-law, the real floor installer. In winter we have moist, dry, humid, hot, heck it depends on where you are. In summer you have heat, moisture, humidity, dryness.... So, the floor will contract and expand accordingly. I am at a loss with the acclimation point, and have decided to let the client do all the necessary floor prep, furniture move, and I will put it in after that. In Jan. So, it will sit. I just hoped I could get some work before the holiday, and had this darn question about acclimation. The flooring is boxed, and kept dry at the where house. It is delivered to the house as I speak. Now it sits there and sucks up whatever climate is there. And in summer, it will shrink to whatever climate is there..... hummm. john "Jack" wrote in message b.com... On 12/13/2012 1:37 PM, Mike Marlow wrote: jloomis wrote: When it comes to vapor barriers and concrete. I agree. My friend ran Sandy Pond Hardwoods, and actually manufactured wood flooring. He has 30 years experience in installation, hardwoods, laminate, etc. He was very careful to let me know that it was not necessary.... So, I do understand our reasoning in acclimation, and then from an experienced floor person, I get yet another opinion. hummmmmmm I was actually hoping to get some work prior to Christmas...... Well, now that I got the pro's and con's, I have made up my mind to let the floor acclimate, and work after Christmas. Be very careful who/what you consider to be the "pros" here. There are far more non-pros here than there are pros. John is likely one of the very few pro's here. Even within the ranks of the pros, there is far less factual information behind their recommendations than real fact. On the other hand - there are those who have detemined some best practices, and share those - complete with consdierations that may or may not apply to your location. Be wary of the "experts" that attempt to simply throw out an answer. I give you +1 for this and another +1 for your previous answer. However, I'm deducting 2 points for yellin at John for posting a picture that actually did contain a tree, and not one post on this topic contained a picture of anything tree related or not. No, now that I think about it I'm deducting 3 points for that, so you are down 1:-) As far as acclimation, I agree with the guy that manufactured and installed floors for 30+ years, and more over, would ask, acclimate to what? Winter? Summer, air on, air off? Exposed to sun, in the shade, what exactly? I would worry more about where it was made, dried and stored (rain forest/desert/down the road a bit) than if I left it alone for a few days. Solid wood will move finished or not, so install with that in mind. Moreover moreover, I've installed two prefinished floors in my life, did not acclimate anything on purpose, and had no problems. I also don't acclimate anything I make in my wood shop, on purpose. Slow as I am, acclimation usually occurs w/o intent, but the emc changes with the weather any way. So who would you believe, me, or a manufacturer/installer that is a friend? If it were me and I had other work I wanted to do first, I'd acclimate, if not, I would take the professional friends advice and get it on. -- Jack Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life. http://jbstein.com |
Wood Floor Question/Agree with Acclimation
jloomis wrote:
You raise a good point. That is the entire argument from my brother-in-law, the real floor installer. In winter we have moist, dry, humid, hot, heck it depends on where you are. In summer you have heat, moisture, humidity, dryness.... So, the floor will contract and expand accordingly. I am at a loss with the acclimation point, and have decided to let the client do all the necessary floor prep, furniture move, and I will put it in after that. In Jan. So, it will sit. I just hoped I could get some work before the holiday, and had this darn question about acclimation. The flooring is boxed, and kept dry at the where house. It is delivered to the house as I speak. Now it sits there and sucks up whatever climate is there. And in summer, it will shrink to whatever climate is there..... hummm. john Well John - it certainly cannot hurt to sit, but the fact of the matter is you can worry about this all you want, but in the summer the humidity is going to change and the wood is going to react to that. There is nothing more you can do but to nail it tight when you go on site, and let the rest fall to what happens with all wood floors. Think about the nicest wood flooring you've ever seen. Do you really think they waited for some precise humidity level/moisture level and then put down the floor? Heck no. By the time you get to do this work your questions will all be moot, because you will have "acclimated" the wood anyway. Nail it John! -- -Mike- |
Wood Floor Question/Agree with Acclimation
Swingman wrote in
: On 12/13/2012 12:10 PM, jloomis wrote: Then when I thought about it, the wood needs to be dry before finishing it. right? And the wood had gone through its movements. right? And unless the wood was stored in a pond, or a damp garage in the must and mold, it should be fine. right? He said the only problem with installing un-acclimated wood is when you install unfinished wood flooring. Now the more I think about this, the more I believe him. I tell you, I never thought I would get so many opinions, and the one that sticks is the one from a person who has installed thousands of sq. ft. hummmm???? No hmmm about it, John ... he may know floors, but he apparently does not fully understand WOOD. :) The following is an absolutely unarguable FACT: "Finish will slow the rate of moisture exchange, it will not stop it. Material finished on all surfaces will expand or contract at a slower rate than raw wood, but finished wood will eventually acclimate to EMC levels." "Finishes cannot change EMC; they affect only the rate at which absorption and desorption occur". The above quoteS are almost verbatim from the US Forest Products Laboratory. So, as I said before, and if you want to do the job properly ... "acclimate". (as a GC who pays attention to such details, I've caused, and bought, many thousands of board feet of flooring of all types to be installed; stubbed my toe once or twice, but never over the same issue more than once ... and I routinely acclimate pre-finished flooring ... it's simply cheaper in the long run to do so) AND: !!!especially if you want to maintain the manufacturer's warranty!!! G Ah...Someone who raised my point of consideration...Regardless of what other experts say, what do the manufacturers of the flooring specify? Why do they say "acclimate" or "not acclimate"? They may be basing their position on faulty data but if you do not follow their recommendation, will warranty on the flooring be invalid due to improper installation? Just my $0.02 worth(less)...DaveD |
Wood Floor Question/Agree with Acclimation
On 12/20/2012 1:46 AM, Dave Dodson wrote:
it's simply cheaper in the long run to do so) AND: !!!especially if you want to maintain the manufacturer's warranty!!! G Ah...Someone who raised my point of consideration...Regardless of what other experts say, what do the manufacturers of the flooring specify? Why do they say "acclimate" or "not acclimate"? They may be basing their position on faulty data but if you do not follow their recommendation, will warranty on the flooring be invalid due to improper installation? Just my $0.02 worth(less)...DaveD Exactly! Other than a couple days' time, what do you lose by acclimating the flooring (which was, after all, John's initial concern)? I know that you will find manufacturer's suggesting or requiring acclimation of their product, but I seriously doubt that you'll ever see one that says "Do Not Acclimate" What would be the purpose? To be fair, unless you're moving a super dry product into a more humid environment AND disregarding the requirement to leave spacing around the perimeter for product movement, you're probably going to be okay also. Much ado about not so much. |
Wood Floor Question/Agree with Acclimation
Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 12/20/2012 1:46 AM, Dave Dodson wrote: it's simply cheaper in the long run to do so) AND: !!!especially if you want to maintain the manufacturer's warranty!!! G Ah...Someone who raised my point of consideration...Regardless of what other experts say, what do the manufacturers of the flooring specify? Why do they say "acclimate" or "not acclimate"? They may be basing their position on faulty data but if you do not follow their recommendation, will warranty on the flooring be invalid due to improper installation? Just my $0.02 worth(less)...DaveD Exactly! Other than a couple days' time, what do you lose by acclimating the flooring (which was, after all, John's initial concern)? I know that you will find manufacturer's suggesting or requiring acclimation of their product, but I seriously doubt that you'll ever see one that says "Do Not Acclimate" What would be the purpose? To be fair, unless you're moving a super dry product into a more humid environment AND disregarding the requirement to leave spacing around the perimeter for product movement, you're probably going to be okay also. Much ado about not so much. I agree - or... at least that makes sense to me. Having read the US Foresty excerpts posted here, and various opinions on acclimating I found myself wondering how those two ideas came together. The Forestry excerpt stated that even sealed wood will absorb moisture from the air, and release it to the air, but it will do so at a much slower rate than unsealed wood. Next to that is the opinion that it may well be safest, or best to allow prefinished wood to acclimate a couple of days or weeks, just as one would with unfinished. So my question became... why? If the finish affects the rate of absorbtion as stated by the Forestry excerpt, then how would acclimating prefinished wood in a manner similar to unfinished wood, be of any value? Wouldn't it take *much* longer to acclimate the prefinished product? So - why bother? And as you say - if the wood has been sitting around in an area of like humidity as your home, is there really even any acclimation taking place? Not that I know the answers to these questions, or even have an opinion on them. I don't lay hardwood floors so I have no real experience to draw from to form a reliable opinion. -- -Mike- |
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