In the current issue of one of the metal working magazines (maybe Home Shop Machinist) there is an introductory article of a series on upgrading and modifying an old shopsmith to do metalworking. The pictures and the mods look very interesting even if you do not want to work metal.

Charles Friedman DDS
Ventura by the Sea

given the much greater rigidity found on most metal working tools, upgrading
a shopsmith could be, shall we say, "challenging" - but a lot of metal
working practices trasfer to wood when you want a particular kidn of
precision
"Charles Friedman" wrote in message
news In the current issue of one of the metal working magazines (maybe Home Shop
Machinist) there is an introductory article of a series on upgrading and
modifying an old shopsmith to do metalworking. The pictures and the mods
look very interesting even if you do not want to work metal.

Charles Friedman DDS
Ventura by the Sea



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Wed, 9 May 2007 09:49:21 -0700, "Charles Friedman"
wrote:

In the current issue of one of the metal working magazines (maybe Home Shop Machinist) there is an introductory article of a series on upgrading and modifying an old shopsmith to do metalworking. The pictures and the mods look very interesting even if you do not want to work metal.

That's very nearly the route I went with the metal lathe I'm building-
I had the midi lathe sitting around unused, and was seriously
considering building a compound slide for it before I sold it and
decided to build the metal lathe from scratch.

There are a couple of fairly big barriers to doing it, but nothing a
determined guy couldn't work around.

The first is that most wood lathes (at least, the ones I see) are a
gap-bed style. To fit and use a compound slide, you sort of need ways
that are made of a solid piece. A person could always mount ways on
the gap bed, but you'd lose some swing, and it'd be tough to align
properly (IMO.)

The second is that a belt drive really isn't good for metal turning.
You want back gears if you're going to be turning slow, so that all
the torque isn't lost, and you need them if you expect to be able to
cut threads. Its another thing that could be worked around, but my
big concern with that was that I would have had to cut away parts of
the headstock, and what would be left may not have been enough to do
the job- a lot of products are engineered to be "just enough" and
putting extra stress on them like that will make them fail.

OTHO, if you wanted to turn metal and aren't that worked up about
precision, there is a way to do it freehand with a three-point tool
called a graver. I haven't tried that myself yet, but it's definately
on the list of things to do one of these days.

The guy who wrote the article (age 79) was well aware of all the problems
including rigidity. He has addressed these and other issues in very
interesting ways. He added a speed reducer unit to drive the band saw, a
Darex drill sharpening unit, and a thin saw to cut decorative inlay molding.
I read the article at my local bookstore. I was tempted to buy it. I may
subscribe just to get the rest of the series.

Charles Friedman DDS
Ventura by the Sea

"Prometheus" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 9 May 2007 09:49:21 -0700, "Charles Friedman"
wrote:

The first is that most wood lathes (at least, the ones I see) are a
gap-bed style. To fit and use a compound slide, you sort of need ways
that are made of a solid piece. A person could always mount ways on
the gap bed, but you'd lose some swing, and it'd be tough to align
properly (IMO.)

Many, if not most, medium (14" to 24") engine lathes are gap bed.


The second is that a belt drive really isn't good for metal turning.

Most all engine lathes are belt drive. It wasn't until the CNC that direct
drive became common and is still only used on them. Manual machines use
belts. I've made hundreds of parts on lathes driven by flat leather belts,
more with the more modern rubber belt drive.

You want back gears if you're going to be turning slow, so that all
the torque isn't lost, and you need them if you expect to be able to
cut threads.

That's true. The gearing is between the spindle and feed rod/leadscrew. The
spindle is still turned by belts. If the spindle changes speed for any
reason, the feed rod or lead screw changes with it as they are geared
together. I have changed spindle speeds in the middle of a threading
operation with no loss of accuracy.

Hi Prometheus

Sorry but I have to disagree with a bunch of things you are claiming
here.


The first is that most wood lathes (at least, the ones I see) are a
gap-bed style. To fit and use a compound slide, you sort of need ways
that are made of a solid piece. A person could always mount ways on
the gap bed, but you'd lose some swing, and it'd be tough to align
properly (IMO.)

A lot of metal lathes are gap bet lathes also, and not just the small
ones, both large lathes we had in our shop where gab bed lathes, and
one had 26" swings and the other one more , don't remember the exact
swing, also the one I turn on now is a gab bed lathe.


The second is that a belt drive really isn't good for metal turning.
You want back gears if you're going to be turning slow, so that all
the torque isn't lost, and you need them if you expect to be able to
cut threads. Its another thing that could be worked around, but my
big concern with that was that I would have had to cut away parts of
the headstock, and what would be left may not have been enough to do
the job- a lot of products are engineered to be "just enough" and
putting extra stress on them like that will make them fail.

Only a few years back really, and all lathes where belt driven, ever
seen those pictures with banks of lathes and long leather belts coming
down from big wooden pulleys on one shaft up high, that drove all
those machines.

Well the old lathe I learned machining on was a flat belt driven one,
it had all the auto feed and cross feed for turning threads etc., but
you did have to manually change gears, those lathes had very often
double reduction gears on the headstock so you could turn large work
pieces very slowly, remember this was before carbide tool bids, speeds
had to be even lower than today, as HSS was the best there was.

However I would not choose a shopsmith to make metal turning lathe out
of, there are much better wood lathes to use for that, I don't think I
ever even would consider doing this, but that's another story.

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo

I agree entirely. As for the belt, look in a modern (non CNC) lathe. No
leather belts anymore. Now they are reinforced rubber but still a belt (or
three).

wrote in message
ups.com...

Only a few years back really, and all lathes where belt driven, ever
seen those pictures with banks of lathes and long leather belts coming
down from big wooden pulleys on one shaft up high, that drove all
those machines.

Well the old lathe I learned machining on was a flat belt driven one,
it had all the auto feed and cross feed for turning threads etc., but
you did have to manually change gears, those lathes had very often
double reduction gears on the headstock so you could turn large work
pieces very slowly, remember this was before carbide tool bids, speeds
had to be even lower than today, as HSS was the best there was.

However I would not choose a shopsmith to make metal turning lathe out
of, there are much better wood lathes to use for that, I don't think I
ever even would consider doing this, but that's another story.

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo

On Fri, 11 May 2007 01:30:31 GMT, "CW" wrote:


"Prometheus" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 9 May 2007 09:49:21 -0700, "Charles Friedman"
wrote:

The first is that most wood lathes (at least, the ones I see) are a
gap-bed style. To fit and use a compound slide, you sort of need ways
that are made of a solid piece. A person could always mount ways on
the gap bed, but you'd lose some swing, and it'd be tough to align
properly (IMO.)

Many, if not most, medium (14" to 24") engine lathes are gap bed.

That's likely true- I haven't seriously been shopping for them, and
most of the lathes I've used in metal turning have been CNC, with no
ways at all to speak of. What I'm most familiar with is a flat ways
with no gap.

The second is that a belt drive really isn't good for metal turning.

Most all engine lathes are belt drive. It wasn't until the CNC that direct
drive became common and is still only used on them. Manual machines use
belts. I've made hundreds of parts on lathes driven by flat leather belts,
more with the more modern rubber belt drive.

Huh- learn something new every day, I guess! I was repeating
Gingery's take on it, as I am about halfway done with making my lathe
off his plans. My goofing around with *real* manual metal lathes has
never included removing the cover over the drive components, so I had
assumed that Gingery's take was based on some fundimental truth I
wasn't previously aware of.

Kind of a relief to hear you say that, actually- I was a little
worried that the homegrown lathe wouldn't be much use until I got all
the gears on. I can afford steel and tooling bits- but aluminum and
brass for turning (especially during a fairly extensive learning and
re-learning process I'm likely to have to go through) are a little out
of my price range right now.

It's really a pretty sorry situation right now- I used to be pretty
good with manual machines, but it's been all CNC for a while now, and
I feel like a retarded kid every time I start making something on old
equipment. It took about 40 hours to get back up to speed on the knee
mill at work, and I had thought I could just jump right on it and go.
At least I'm turning out nice parts on it now- but I figure the engine
lathe is likely to be a similar situation when I get it running.

You want back gears if you're going to be turning slow, so that all
the torque isn't lost, and you need them if you expect to be able to
cut threads.

That's true. The gearing is between the spindle and feed rod/leadscrew. The
spindle is still turned by belts. If the spindle changes speed for any
reason, the feed rod or lead screw changes with it as they are geared
together. I have changed spindle speeds in the middle of a threading
operation with no loss of accuracy.

On another note- I give up. On some other thread quite a while back,
you had said that you could make a wheel on a knee mill that was as
good as one turned on a lathe without a rotary vise. I've been
racking my brain on and off over that one, and have come up with
nothing. Any chance you can give me a hint of how that is done? I
don't really need to do it, I just want to know!

On 10 May 2007 20:06:41 -0700, "
wrote:

Hi Prometheus

Sorry but I have to disagree with a bunch of things you are claiming
here.

That's fine, of course- What I was basing all of this on was the one I
am building, and the conclusions I reached (apparently in error!)
based on adapting the Gingery design to an existing wood lathe. I
really prefer to be corrected, actually- it's better to get things
straight than to walk around with a head full of nonsense, and it
seems like no matter how much stuff I do or study, it just becomes
more apparent how much there still is to figure out.

At this rate, I'm going to be lucky if I know how to tie my shoes in
50 years!

The first is that most wood lathes (at least, the ones I see) are a
gap-bed style. To fit and use a compound slide, you sort of need ways
that are made of a solid piece. A person could always mount ways on
the gap bed, but you'd lose some swing, and it'd be tough to align
properly (IMO.)

A lot of metal lathes are gap bet lathes also, and not just the small
ones, both large lathes we had in our shop where gab bed lathes, and
one had 26" swings and the other one more , don't remember the exact
swing, also the one I turn on now is a gab bed lathe.


The second is that a belt drive really isn't good for metal turning.
You want back gears if you're going to be turning slow, so that all
the torque isn't lost, and you need them if you expect to be able to
cut threads. Its another thing that could be worked around, but my
big concern with that was that I would have had to cut away parts of
the headstock, and what would be left may not have been enough to do
the job- a lot of products are engineered to be "just enough" and
putting extra stress on them like that will make them fail.

Only a few years back really, and all lathes where belt driven, ever
seen those pictures with banks of lathes and long leather belts coming
down from big wooden pulleys on one shaft up high, that drove all
those machines.

Ah yes- I've seen those. But that seems like a far cry from the
little rubber band that turns the spindle on something like the Midi
lathe I was eyeing up!

Well the old lathe I learned machining on was a flat belt driven one,
it had all the auto feed and cross feed for turning threads etc., but
you did have to manually change gears, those lathes had very often
double reduction gears on the headstock so you could turn large work
pieces very slowly, remember this was before carbide tool bids, speeds
had to be even lower than today, as HSS was the best there was.

Unfortunately, I remember really well- the mill tooling we have at
work is HSS, and I haven't had the extra $$$ to pony up for new
carbide ones for my personal projects. (No, the boss will not
purchase them- they can pinch a penny until it screams up in the front
office. Kind of like any business, really- and since we're not
focused on milling, it's a make do or do without situation.)

However I would not choose a shopsmith to make metal turning lathe out
of, there are much better wood lathes to use for that, I don't think I
ever even would consider doing this, but that's another story.

You'd never consider it? I sure did- I hadn't used the midi lathe in
over a year, I wanted a metal lathe, and didn't have enough cash to
buy one. That alone was reason enough to at least eye it up.

But I agree- selling the Midi to an aspiring wood turner was a better
move than trying to cobble something together. Building it from the
ground up has been working out pretty well, albeit slowly. I've just
been carefully making a part or two at a time, and using steel where
the plans call for aluminum. Should be a halfway decent piece of
equipment when it's done.

Hi Prometheus
Yes I think you made the right choice by going from scratch, rather
than try to work around a given, and going slow is best, think things
over before making the next step, good luck.
Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo



On May 11, 6:38 am, Prometheus wrote:
On 10 May 2007 20:06:41 -0700, "

wrote:
Hi Prometheus

Sorry but I have to disagree with a bunch of things you are claiming
here.

That's fine, of course- What I was basing all of this on was the one I
am building, and the conclusions I reached (apparently in error!)
based on adapting the Gingery design to an existing wood lathe. I
really prefer to be corrected, actually- it's better to get things
straight than to walk around with a head full of nonsense, and it
seems like no matter how much stuff I do or study, it just becomes
more apparent how much there still is to figure out.

At this rate, I'm going to be lucky if I know how to tie my shoes in
50 years!



The first is that most wood lathes (at least, the ones I see) are a
gap-bed style. To fit and use a compound slide, you sort of need ways
that are made of a solid piece. A person could always mount ways on
the gap bed, but you'd lose some swing, and it'd be tough to align
properly (IMO.)

A lot of metal lathes are gap bet lathes also, and not just the small
ones, both large lathes we had in our shop where gab bed lathes, and
one had 26" swings and the other one more , don't remember the exact
swing, also the one I turn on now is a gab bed lathe.

The second is that a belt drive really isn't good for metal turning.
You want back gears if you're going to be turning slow, so that all
the torque isn't lost, and you need them if you expect to be able to
cut threads. Its another thing that could be worked around, but my
big concern with that was that I would have had to cut away parts of
the headstock, and what would be left may not have been enough to do
the job- a lot of products are engineered to be "just enough" and
putting extra stress on them like that will make them fail.

Only a few years back really, and all lathes where belt driven, ever
seen those pictures with banks of lathes and long leather belts coming
down from big wooden pulleys on one shaft up high, that drove all
those machines.

Ah yes- I've seen those. But that seems like a far cry from the
little rubber band that turns the spindle on something like the Midi
lathe I was eyeing up!

Well the old lathe I learned machining on was a flat belt driven one,
it had all the auto feed and cross feed for turning threads etc., but
you did have to manually change gears, those lathes had very often
double reduction gears on the headstock so you could turn large work
pieces very slowly, remember this was before carbide tool bids, speeds
had to be even lower than today, as HSS was the best there was.

Unfortunately, I remember really well- the mill tooling we have at
work is HSS, and I haven't had the extra $$$ to pony up for new
carbide ones for my personal projects. (No, the boss will not
purchase them- they can pinch a penny until it screams up in the front
office. Kind of like any business, really- and since we're not
focused on milling, it's a make do or do without situation.)

However I would not choose a shopsmith to make metal turning lathe out
of, there are much better wood lathes to use for that, I don't think I
ever even would consider doing this, but that's another story.

You'd never consider it? I sure did- I hadn't used the midi lathe in
over a year, I wanted a metal lathe, and didn't have enough cash to
buy one. That alone was reason enough to at least eye it up.

But I agree- selling the Midi to an aspiring wood turner was a better
move than trying to cobble something together. Building it from the
ground up has been working out pretty well, albeit slowly. I've just
been carefully making a part or two at a time, and using steel where
the plans call for aluminum. Should be a halfway decent piece of
equipment when it's done.

Hi Charles, Have you considered writing a series of articles on
converting an old dental drill into a milling machine? Makes about as
much sense to me as making a shopsmith, even the original iron ones,
into an engine lathe. As I see it, each SS multiuse module is a
compromise so I guess one could add yet another, but why put lipstick on
a pig? Understand, I like pigs, they are smart, but they are not draft
animals.

I remember that many woodturners, notably Mel Lindquist, now deceased,
but once a member of my N. Fl club, have turned fairly large and heavy
wood blanks and some have likely spun soft metals on these machines, but
for machining metal not only would rigidity seem to be a problem, but
also precision and accuracy seem to be in question. However maybe the
author can carry it off.

I'm not against multiuse machines. I've turned wood on my little Atlas
horizontal mill and I still have a shopsmith at my Maine camp, but I
don't turn gun barrels on it. I can see why this unusual endeavor would
pique your interest. Mine too. Keep us posted as the series unfolds. I
may have it all wrong and can learn something yet.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Think boring head. There's more but that's one way.

"Prometheus" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 11 May 2007 01:30:31 GMT, "CW" wrote:
On another note- I give up. On some other thread quite a while back,
you had said that you could make a wheel on a knee mill that was as
good as one turned on a lathe without a rotary vise. I've been
racking my brain on and off over that one, and have come up with
nothing. Any chance you can give me a hint of how that is done? I
don't really need to do it, I just want to know!

On Sun, 13 May 2007 03:20:23 GMT, "CW" wrote:

Think boring head. There's more but that's one way.

Ahh... I can see that. Thanks.

"Prometheus" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 11 May 2007 01:30:31 GMT, "CW" wrote:
On another note- I give up. On some other thread quite a while back,
you had said that you could make a wheel on a knee mill that was as
good as one turned on a lathe without a rotary vise. I've been
racking my brain on and off over that one, and have come up with
nothing. Any chance you can give me a hint of how that is done? I
don't really need to do it, I just want to know!

Arch

The gentleman who wrote the article did not intend the SS to be a heavy duty
metalworking tool. He understands the limitations of the machine and knows
how to engineer some interesting solutions. In the process he does come up
with some ideas that are applicable to metal and wood. One of his concerns
is the cost of real estate to set up and use multiple tools. If this is not
one of your problems, then multiple dedicated machines would be an obvious
way to go.

Thinking thru problems and coming up with unusual solutions makes life more
interesting. I am reminded of listening to Ed Moulthrup
(http://www.jra.org/craftart/awards/2001/moulthrop.htm ) give a
presentation on his work. He turned huge vessels (big enough for kids to
hide in). Ed was an architect and could have bought an existing lathe, but
instead he created his own slow speed lathe from used truck parts. Well
after checking out the reference: "he would pare a 1600 pound log into an 80
pound vessel", I guess he did not have much choice (but I do think a large
Oliver lathe would have worked).

Yes Arch, I have used my dental drills to do a lot of stuff. Probably the
most important task has been to remove broken bolts in steel punches after
drilling with standard techniques and twist out tools did not work (think
broken, hardened twist out below the surface that has to be removed. Think
portable ultra high speed milling machine with diamond tooling and 2 hours
of time to salvage the punch).

Charles Friedman DDS
Ventura by the Sea


"Arch" wrote in message
...
Hi Charles, Have you considered writing a series of articles on
converting an old dental drill into a milling machine? Makes about as
much sense to me as making a shopsmith, even the original iron ones,
into an engine lathe. As I see it, each SS multiuse module is a
compromise so I guess one could add yet another, but why put lipstick on
a pig? Understand, I like pigs, they are smart, but they are not draft
animals.

I remember that many woodturners, notably Mel Lindquist, now deceased,
but once a member of my N. Fl club, have turned fairly large and heavy
wood blanks and some have likely spun soft metals on these machines, but
for machining metal not only would rigidity seem to be a problem, but
also precision and accuracy seem to be in question. However maybe the
author can carry it off.

I'm not against multiuse machines. I've turned wood on my little Atlas
horizontal mill and I still have a shopsmith at my Maine camp, but I
don't turn gun barrels on it. I can see why this unusual endeavor would
pique your interest. Mine too. Keep us posted as the series unfolds. I
may have it all wrong and can learn something yet.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings