Any ideas on this one?
I constructed and turned this segmented bowl:

http://webpages.charter.net/videodoc...tedBowl01l.jpg

After gluing the veneers into place, apparently some kind of chemical
reaction occurred, turning spots in the maple veneer layer a grey
color instead of the normal whitish color. The glue was Titebond II.

Kind of ruins the effect I was after...
Any suggestions?

Thanks,


Greg G.

Hi Greg

Very nice bowl, did the discoloration happen to every piece of glued
maple on this bowl ??

I very rarely glue anything other than a waste block, so I wont be much
of a help to you, but did this happen before, ever, what was different,
I mean wood dryer or not, temperature higher/lower, and are you sure it
was not there before, and you only see it now after it is finished ??

Hope someone can shed some light on it, I do know that fungus does
discolor a lot of woods not just maple, but I think that is only
possible to happen if the wood is wet, not on dry wood.

http://homepage.mac.com/l.vanderloo/PhotoAlbum4.html

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo

apparently some kind of chemical
reaction occurred, turning spots in the maple veneer layer a grey
color instead of the normal whitish color.

Looks to me like a case of mis-matched segments.

Walt Conner

Greg G. wrote:
Any ideas on this one?
I constructed and turned this segmented bowl:

http://webpages.charter.net/videodoc...tedBowl01l.jpg

After gluing the veneers into place, apparently some kind of chemical
reaction occurred, turning spots in the maple veneer layer a grey
color instead of the normal whitish color. The glue was Titebond II.

Kind of ruins the effect I was after...
Any suggestions?

If I were to hazard a guess I'd bet that it wasn't the glue, but sanding
it that did it. Probably some really fine walnut dust has stained the
maple. Next time use purpleheart. If it's light purple instead of grey
then you've found the culprit.

Might be a good tack rag could have helped w/that, or maybe some mineral
spirits on a cloth...

....Kevin
--
Kevin Miller
http://www.alaska.net/~atftb
Juneau, Alaska
Registered Linux User No: 307357

WConner said:

Looks to me like a case of mis-matched segments.

Walt Conner

An inaccurate observation from one who has apparently never seen the
refractive nature of soft maple illluminated by a point source lamp.

http://webpages.charter.net/videodoc...tedBowl04l.jpg

http://webpages.charter.net/videodoc...tedBowl05l.jpg

Sort of like a Disco Ball...


Greg G.

said:

Hi Greg

Very nice bowl, did the discoloration happen to every piece of glued
maple on this bowl ??

Hi Leo,

Happened only to the veneers, not the remainder of the solid stock
maple or walnut. Some of the veneer was glued up into stacks, as
shown by this photo:

http://webpages.charter.net/videodoc...erSpots01l.jpg

The spots are clearly visible. This occurred within several hours.
It was clamped between clear kitchen plastic wrap and cawls, so no
contamination from an external component could have occurred.

I discarded this piece and made another. This was then cut into
smaller pieces to create the feature ring divisions. It didn't seem
to discolor until glued into the feature ring. Time between the
veneer glue-up and ring assembly was one day. Total elapsed time for
the entire bowl was one week.

http://webpages.charter.net/videodoc...tedBowl05l.jpg

Before posting my query, I tried clamping several veneers together
with both water and glue. Only the glued pieces discolored.

It's a mystery to me. I even considered the rubber roller on the glue
bottle applicator as the culprit, but apparently not.

Thanks,

Greg G.

Kevin Miller said:

Greg G. wrote:

After gluing the veneers into place, apparently some kind of chemical
reaction occurred, turning spots in the maple veneer layer a grey
color instead of the normal whitish color. The glue was Titebond II.

Kind of ruins the effect I was after...
Any suggestions?


If I were to hazard a guess I'd bet that it wasn't the glue, but sanding
it that did it. Probably some really fine walnut dust has stained the
maple. Next time use purpleheart. If it's light purple instead of grey
then you've found the culprit.

Might be a good tack rag could have helped w/that, or maybe some mineral
spirits on a cloth...

...Kevin

Hello Kevin,

Happened only to the veneers, not the remainder of the solid stock
maple or walnut. Some of the veneer was glued up into stacks before
assembling into the feature ring, as shown by this photo:

http://webpages.charter.net/videodoc...erSpots01l.jpg

The spots are clearly visible. This occurred within several hours.
It was clamped between clear kitchen plastic wrap and cawls, so no
contamination from an external component could have occurred.
No sanding contamination either. Just glue and veneer.

I am beginning to suspect a possible cross reaction between the two
species of wood used. One of them is an exotic I am otherwise
unfamiliar with. I believe it is called Makore (Pommelle).

I will have to run more tests to determine the exact cause, and what
materials are involved. I bought the veneers as an assortment of
species. I think I got about 68 sq ft for $25 on special.
Perhaps that's why it was on special... ;-)

Incidentally, I always wipe down my projects before finishing, and
again, the discoloration began before any sanding or finishing was
begun.

It's not a total loss, as it looks good enough to put popcorn in, but
the greyed maple veneer lessens the impact of the thin detail lines.

http://webpages.charter.net/videodoc...tedBowl05l.jpg

Thanks,


Greg G.

It looks like metal stains to me. I get them on some of my green turned
bowls and think that it comes from metal dust from the grinder. If you
clamped it with water, then it wouldn't be the metal. Try a little
lemon juice or I think boric acid works also to remove metal stains.

robo hippy said:

It looks like metal stains to me. I get them on some of my green turned
bowls and think that it comes from metal dust from the grinder. If you
clamped it with water, then it wouldn't be the metal. Try a little
lemon juice or I think boric acid works also to remove metal stains.

Thanks for the input. No, it wouldn't have been metal causing it, due
to the fact that it occurred on glued up veneer stacks rather than the
completed project. I've got a bunch of test veneer glue-ups drying
the in the gar^h^h^h shop as we speak. Maple to maple, maple to
walnut, makore to maple, makore to makore. Clean glue and no foreign
applicator used. I'll figure it out eventually. All this because of
my desire to imbed a reddish detail band - shoulda used black walnut.

I'm thinking that there is something in the makore that is transferred
with the glue into the maple, and the combination of glue and exotic
salts is discoloring the maple. A water wetted clamp-up between the
two species did nothing adverse. We'll see in about an hour...

FWIW,

Greg G.

Greg G. said:

WConner said:

Looks to me like a case of mis-matched segments.

Walt Conner

An inaccurate observation from one who has apparently never seen the
refractive nature of soft maple illluminated by a point source lamp.

http://webpages.charter.net/videodoc...tedBowl04l.jpg

http://webpages.charter.net/videodoc...tedBowl05l.jpg

Sort of like a Disco Ball...

Let me rephrase that - was half-asleep and sounds kinda snappy...

It isn't the segments that are the problem, they are fine. The
apparent mismatch of the segments is actually a reflection aberration
caused by the camera flash and this particular board of maple.

The problem is in the detail rings - the tiny little 1/32" bands that
circle the bowl above and below the feature rings and in-between the
segments of the feature ring. The picture doesn't show this very
well, but it was on hand at the time.

FWIW,

Greg G.

Greg wrote:

I'm thinking that there is something in the makore that is transferred
with the glue into the maple, and the combination of glue and exotic
salts is discoloring the maple. A water wetted clamp-up between the
two species did nothing adverse. We'll see in about an hour...



I think you're right. I'm finding it difficult to see the problem, but it
looks like the upper thin bands should be light surrounded by dark. The
'light' looks muddy. On the foot it looks ok to me.

Hi Greg

Sure looks like fungus to me, are you able to do some glue up without
the plastic wrap ??
Doesn't take long for fungus to grow in the right conditioning.
I'm probably wrong but it's worth a try maybe.

http://homepage.mac.com/l.vanderloo/PhotoAlbum27.html

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo

wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi Greg

Sure looks like fungus to me, are you able to do some glue up without
the plastic wrap ??
Doesn't take long for fungus to grow in the right conditioning.
I'm probably wrong but it's worth a try maybe.


That makes two votes for reactivation of black mildew.

http://webpages.charter.net/videodoc...tedBowl05l.jpg
Greg G.

Greg, I think the bowl is sharp and well done.
Without meaning ANY criticism but thinking on it I wonder what the effect
would be if the center (just under the walnut) were just one piece. Seems
the contrast would improve with the rest appearing more dramatic. Sorta like
removing some of the busy-ness.

I've not tried segmenting so I've no idea how workable this would be. Just a
thought after seeing a lot of segmented pieces. Would like to hear your
thoughts.

TomNie

In article ,
Greg wrote:

....

Before posting my query, I tried clamping several veneers together
with both water and glue. Only the glued pieces discolored.

Greg, I suspect a reaction between the glue you used and some
treatment the veneer had

--
--------------------------------------------------------
Personal e-mail is the n7bsn but at amsat.org
This posting address is a spam-trap and seldom read
RV and Camping FAQ can be found at
http://www.ralphandellen.us/rv

Thanks, I'll try not to bother you again.

Walt Conner

WConner said:

Looks to me like a case of mis-matched segments.

Walt Conner

An inaccurate observation from one who has apparently never seen the
refractive nature of soft maple illluminated by a point source lamp.

http://webpages.charter.net/videodoc...tedBowl04l.jpg

http://webpages.charter.net/videodoc...tedBowl05l.jpg

Sort of like a Disco Ball...


Greg G.

Tom Nie said:

http://webpages.charter.net/videodoc...tedBowl05l.jpg
Greg G.

Greg, I think the bowl is sharp and well done.
Without meaning ANY criticism but thinking on it I wonder what the effect
would be if the center (just under the walnut) were just one piece. Seems
the contrast would improve with the rest appearing more dramatic. Sorta like
removing some of the busy-ness.

I've not tried segmenting so I've no idea how workable this would be. Just a
thought after seeing a lot of segmented pieces. Would like to hear your
thoughts.

TomNie

Thanks, Tom,

From everything I've been able to glean, some guys apparently use
solid bases, some segmented. Those that use segmented bases
apparently hollow out the center to a thickness of 1/8" or so, and
install a plywood plug underneath - or completely drill out the center
and use a solid plug. I like the look of the segmented bases, so I
have been opting for the former method. I have solved the problem of
matching the center points and such, so I personally don't feel a
solid base is an advantage. One person claimed that the perfectly
aligned center points visible from the inside "made the looks of it" -
for whatever that subjective comment is worth.

In my estimation, the vessel should be more durable as the entire unit
breaths and expands/contracts in unison, whereas with a solid base,
the upper rings expand in all directions while the base in only one.
It seems that using a solid base almost requires the use of a veneer
layer between the two to prohibit/retard cracking between the base and
the segmented rings. Of course, if the grain orientation of the other
rings aren't properly aligned, all bets are off anyway.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it... ;-)

Of course, all of this is irrelevant to the discolored veneer problem.
I have yet to come to a conclusion on that matter. I glued-up a group
of test subjects, and wouldn't you know, not one of them exhibited the
problem. Argghh... Seems it only demonstrates the discoloration
issue when installed into a vessel that has a minimum of 10 hours of
time invested...

Just like woman - a complete and utter waste of time...

FWIW,

Greg G.

In my estimation, the vessel should be more durable as the entire unit
breaths and expands/contracts in unison, whereas with a solid base,
the upper rings expand in all directions while the base in only one.
It seems that using a solid base almost requires the use of a veneer
layer between the two to prohibit/retard cracking between the base and
the segmented rings. Of course, if the grain orientation of the other
rings aren't properly aligned, all bets are off anyway.


I didn't make myself clear. The solid part I was referring to was the lower
portion of the bowl between the two segmented layers at the top and the
segmented bottom.

I think the segmented bottom adds to the attractiveness of the piece. Just a
plain center/bottom bowl part seemed like it would add drama. I'm not an
arteeest so maybe my thought is goofy.

Now your feelings of disparate movement may still be your answer. I guess
you'd have to assemble your segments, then add to a solid blank, then turn
and hollow about like normal. Then add to your segmented bottom.

TomNie

On Wed, 08 Feb 2006 01:45:58 -0500, Greg wrote:

After gluing the veneers into place, apparently some kind of chemical
reaction occurred, turning spots in the maple veneer layer a grey
color instead of the normal whitish color. The glue was Titebond II.

Kind of ruins the effect I was after...
Any suggestions?

Greg,

I know you don't know me from a hole in the wall, but FWIW to you, I
think I would go along with the spalting crowd. There's a reason for
that, though. The "bullseye" effect in some of the larger "colonies"
look just like mold growing in a petri dish and the fact that the
smaller discolorations seem to very closely follow the curve of the
grain.

It could very well be, especially since this is a veneer, that the
blade used to cut it originally, transferred spores to the surface of
the piece you have here. Perhaps the chlorine in the water you used
to experiment was enough to inhibit the growth of the spores, and the
moisture in the glue, coupled with the sealing with plastic wrap,
provided the optimum climate for awakening the dormant spores.

--
Chuck *#:^)
chaz3913(AT)yahoo(DOT)com
Anti-spam sig: please remove "NO SPAM" from e-mail address to reply.


September 11, 2001 - Never Forget

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George wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi Greg

Sure looks like fungus to me, are you able to do some glue up without
the plastic wrap ??
Doesn't take long for fungus to grow in the right conditioning.
I'm probably wrong but it's worth a try maybe.


That makes two votes for reactivation of black mildew.

Make it three. Those weren't visible in the first photo I saw...

....Kevin
--
Kevin Miller
http://www.alaska.net/~atftb
Juneau, Alaska
Registered Linux User No: 307357

Tom Nie said:

I didn't make myself clear. The solid part I was referring to was the lower
portion of the bowl between the two segmented layers at the top and the
segmented bottom.

Tom,

Actually, you were quite clear, I simply exhibited the far too common
Usenet trait of not paying complete attention to what you said.
It's been a really bad week...

I have seen what you describe...
Similar to this fine bowl by Kevin Neeley, I assume:

http://www.turnedwood.com/images/Bowl0745b.jpg

I have never tried it, and don't have any big dried blanks to work
with. That is one advantage of turning kiln fried woods. They are
already at a consistent moisture content, ergo the parts that make up
the bowl segments are also consistent. This ensures that
expansion/contraction should relatively predictable, and that
(hopefully) nothing should crack after a few seasons.

Turning a block of green wood and then trying to glue up with kiln
fried segments would require a considerable amount of time for drying
and equalization, or as the green blank dried, the segments would pop
off like a '69 Ford LTD hubcap.

I've never seen a 10" x 10" x 4" kiln fried butternut blank for sale,
and at the price of wood these days, I'm not sure I want to. Same
with Cherry, Maple, etc. When I turn large monolithic blanks, I
generally use green wood collected myself. Being relatively poor,
it's generally a requirement. :-|

I think the segmented bottom adds to the attractiveness of the piece. Just a
plain center/bottom bowl part seemed like it would add drama. I'm not an
arteeest so maybe my thought is goofy.

As demonstrated by the above referenced bowl, not goofy at all.
Expensive and time consuming perhaps, but looks good to me.

Now your feelings of disparate movement may still be your answer. I guess
you'd have to assemble your segments, then add to a solid blank, then turn
and hollow about like normal. Then add to your segmented bottom.

With dried woods and MC equalization, it should be doable, albeit at a
price. I still worry about the differing expansion characteristics of
the various parts. The large monolithic blank would expand greatly
cross grain in one direction, but the segmented rings would expand to
a lesser extent in all directions. I assume you would have to pay
particular attention to the expansion percentages of the chosen woods,
turn somewhat thin, and it might possibly require the use of veneer
layers and a pliable glue to offset the tendency of the pieces to
crack apart at the glue lines.

I'm certainly no expert, but that's my take on it all...

FWIW,


Greg G.

Chuck said:

Greg,

I know you don't know me from a hole in the wall, but FWIW to you, I
think I would go along with the spalting crowd. There's a reason for
that, though. The "bullseye" effect in some of the larger "colonies"
look just like mold growing in a petri dish and the fact that the
smaller discolorations seem to very closely follow the curve of the
grain.

It could very well be, especially since this is a veneer, that the
blade used to cut it originally, transferred spores to the surface of
the piece you have here. Perhaps the chlorine in the water you used
to experiment was enough to inhibit the growth of the spores, and the
moisture in the glue, coupled with the sealing with plastic wrap,
provided the optimum climate for awakening the dormant spores.

Pretty good theory. Although in person the spots look more like black
ink that mold stains. Mold is something we have all too much of here
in the humid south, and I've seen a lot of it. The pattern of spots
does look like mold, but I'm not entirely sold.

It turns out that there are some odd salts in/on the makore, crystals
of it are visible in the grain. I am becoming more convinced that it
is a chemical reaction, rather than mold. I have some test setups
going, as time permits, to determine exactly what this is - for
certain. It seems that clamping pressure after gluing is the major
contributing factor as to whether the discoloration appears or not.

I tried de-chlorinated aquarium water and could not provoke the growth
of mold. I also tried glue by itself, and also could not provoke the
growth of mold. But if I clamp with a lot of glue, and the glue
squeezes through the makore veneer into the maple veneer, I get spots
within 30 minutes - awfully quick for mold - especially in winter.

I hate to throw out 20 sq ft of makore veneer due to this phenomenon.

For me, the jury is still out on this one...

Thanks for the input,

Greg G.

Greg, Hey that's some cool stuff! Glanced at a couple of the images and the
bowl you linked is outstanding. The solid section has so much movement it's
as if it's segmented, too. What an example of a plain jane bowl SHAPE being
treated in such a way as to be a piece of art in large part because of the
simple intrinsic beauty of wood. That's not a slight of Neeley because how
he brought it all together is marvelous. Thanks for the link.

http://www.turnedwood.com/images/Bowl0688a.jpg
Notice what he did on this one. Created the solid effect in the center that
I was talking about but used segments.

I gotta learn how to do this stuff but using local woods like the cherry and
black walnut I've got piled around here. Maybe the beech could be used as
the contrast.

TomNie

Similar to this fine bowl by Kevin Neeley, I assume:

http://www.turnedwood.com/images/Bowl0745b.jpg

Tom Nie said:

Greg, Hey that's some cool stuff! Glanced at a couple of the images and the
bowl you linked is outstanding. The solid section has so much movement it's
as if it's segmented, too. What an example of a plain jane bowl SHAPE being
treated in such a way as to be a piece of art in large part because of the
simple intrinsic beauty of wood. That's not a slight of Neeley because how
he brought it all together is marvelous. Thanks for the link.

There are a lot of segmented turners out there, but KN's stuff is more
to my taste than most others. I would love to find out where he gets
the black palm - but from what I have read, it's a real bear to turn.

http://www.turnedwood.com/images/Bowl0688a.jpg
Notice what he did on this one. Created the solid effect in the center that
I was talking about but used segments.

OK, I've done one like that...

http://webpages.charter.net/videodoc...entedPot04.jpg

Feature band is unadorned by detail... But it IS segmented.

I gotta learn how to do this stuff but using local woods like the cherry and
black walnut I've got piled around here. Maybe the beech could be used as
the contrast.

A very large beech tree fell in a local park a week ago. I've been
eyeing it for a way to cut it up and remove it, but they have the path
partitioned off. A crew showed up and threw most of it into the wood
chipper. ARRGGHH!!! This thing was huge - about 60' tall and 32" in
diameter. The 3-4' sections they cut it into are too heavy to lift.

What a waste...



Greg G.

Greg,
I don't know if you know it or not, but Makore has a chemical in it used for
the production of dye. But I think the color extracted is "yellow". Just a
thought.
Clarence
"Greg G." wrote in message
...
robo hippy said:

It looks like metal stains to me. I get them on some of my green turned
bowls and think that it comes from metal dust from the grinder. If you
clamped it with water, then it wouldn't be the metal. Try a little
lemon juice or I think boric acid works also to remove metal stains.

Thanks for the input. No, it wouldn't have been metal causing it, due
to the fact that it occurred on glued up veneer stacks rather than the
completed project. I've got a bunch of test veneer glue-ups drying
the in the gar^h^h^h shop as we speak. Maple to maple, maple to
walnut, makore to maple, makore to makore. Clean glue and no foreign
applicator used. I'll figure it out eventually. All this because of
my desire to imbed a reddish detail band - shoulda used black walnut.

I'm thinking that there is something in the makore that is transferred
with the glue into the maple, and the combination of glue and exotic
salts is discoloring the maple. A water wetted clamp-up between the
two species did nothing adverse. We'll see in about an hour...

FWIW,

Greg G.