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Why are schools dumping auto shop, wood shop, and metal shop?
When I was in school, these were every boy's favorite, and almost the
only useful education we got. |
Why are schools dumping auto shop, wood shop, and metal shop?
wrote in message
... When I was in school, these were every boy's favorite, and almost the only useful education we got. Indeed. And the answer to the Q is: Because everyone wants to be a fuknStockbroker. Better to be the one doing the ****ing. Spent an embarrassing number of years in the academic dog'n'pony show, the only two things I ever used was Newton's law, and the pythagorean theorem, and I lernt those in the 9th grade. Apparently some tenured professors agree, as they basically said **** Research, and had their students making meth et al. And then got pretty ****ed at the trial judge. http://www.nytimes.com/1992/07/04/ny...1?pagewanted=1 Well, I guess in this case, organic chem principles would be more useful than Newton's Laws -- acid-catalyzed hydrolysis, etc. -- EA |
Why are schools dumping auto shop, wood shop, and metal shop?
On Sat, 12 Jun 2010 09:36:12 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote: When I was in school, these were every boy's favorite, and almost the only useful education we got. I would say litigation. Last fall I got one of those square work benches from shop class with the slots for boards to pull out (can't recall what they are use for, but there are about 8) and 8 drawers. Has to be from a school, I had to put blocks under the legs cause it was way too short. That has to be the best dollar I've spent, only problem was it was in a basement EEE. Some day I'll get a picture of it on line. Oh even the drawers are numbered and some are in the teens. SW |
Why are schools dumping auto shop, wood shop, and metal shop?
"Sunworshipper" wrote in message ... On Sat, 12 Jun 2010 09:36:12 -0700 (PDT), " wrote: When I was in school, these were every boy's favorite, and almost the only useful education we got. I would say litigation. Last fall I got one of those square work benches from shop class with the slots for boards to pull out (can't recall what they are use for, but there are about 8) and 8 drawers. Has to be from a school, I had to put blocks under the legs cause it was way too short. That has to be the best dollar I've spent, only problem was it was in a basement EEE. Some day I'll get a picture of it on line. Oh even the drawers are numbered and some are in the teens. SW Something to be aware of in this subject is what happened to industrial arts teaching as far back as the late 1800s. The initial push for shop classes was NOT to teach kids the skills they'd need for jobs in industry. It was to "build an appreciation" for "industriousness," and to provide "cultural industrial education" as part of a broad curriculum. In other words, it wasn't actually about preparation for industry; it was the late-18th century version of liberal arts and preparation for Renaissance Men. There always was a conflict in the teaching between those educators who saw it as a "cultural" issue and those who wanted to train kids for industrial jobs. Where shop classes were required (two schools I attended), it had its roots in the cultural aspect. Where the classes were in-depth and closely aligned with local industrial needs, it was a curriculum based on vocational training. My uncle, who was the department head for a local school system in industrial arts and head of the state Industrial Arts Education Association, was one of the latter. He had his kids go on field trips to local industries at least once every two weeks. They had aluminum and brass foundries, injection molding, quality lathes and mills, and so on. Because copper wire drawing was an important industry here, he had them learn how to make diamond drawing dies in class. Making ceramic fixtures was another big local industry; they had a ceramics class that was mostly about making sweep molds for commercial manufacture of sinks, tubs, toilets, etc. They placed a LOT of kids in those jobs. In my area, the vocational training aspect has been separated into special vo-tech high schools. There are at least three of them in my county; I took welding classes in one of them. I toured the place and talked to the teachers. They're into the vocational training all the way. They have good equipment, including CNC machines, professional-style auto shop equipment, and so on. They also teach at levels through the first two years of college, providing specialty certificates that are almost equivalent to an Associate's degree. So when we bemoan the lack of shop classes, keep in mind that most of them were never intended to train kids for industrial jobs. They might spark an interest and give some kids a relief from the pure academics. I always looked forward to shop because it gave me a chance to do something with my hands that was really satisfying. That probably could be described as the "cultural industrial arts" outcome. I don't recall that it made me particularly industrious. d8-) Now the schools are in a dilemma, because they've always been ambivalent about the cultural/vocational dichotomy, and a lack of manufacturing jobs has taken away much of the incentive to justify their programs with the vocational issue. That's been shucked off to the specialty high schools in areas like mine. The "cultural industrial arts" have fallen victim NOT to political bias, unless you consider teaching the "basics" and the pressure of "No Child Left Behind" to teach little more than reading, writing, and math to be "political." I think we see pressure for it from both sides of the political spectrum. There is little support in most communities to fund industrial arts education, except in the vo-tech specialty schools. There is *tremendous* pressure for kids to score higher on national math and English tests. And that's why we're where we are today. -- Ed Huntress |
Why are schools dumping auto shop, wood shop, and metal shop?
Appx. 22 years ago, as patr of my school curriculum, I underwent a
vocational class that culminated with me getting a lathe operator's license. I loved the class, though when we visited the actual factory where I was told people with my training work, I realized that higher education was the way to go. Without that class, I am sure that I would not end up with a garage full of machine tools. |
Why are schools dumping auto shop, wood shop, and metal shop?
"Ignoramus1737" wrote in message
... Appx. 22 years ago, as patr of my school curriculum, I underwent a vocational class that culminated with me getting a lathe operator's license. I loved the class, though when we visited the actual factory where I was told people with my training work, I realized that higher education was the way to go. Without that class, I am sure that I would not end up with a garage full of machine tools. Funny thing about "higher" education: You can't do a goddamm thing with it, in actuality, but it does open doors, ups the salary ante. Higher ed is like a mental hazing. The most useless people on earth are Manhattan's higher-educated echelon. But, with pretty good paychecks. -- EA |
Why are schools dumping auto shop, wood shop, and metal shop?
Sunworshipper on Sat, 12 Jun 2010 12:51:11 -0500 typed
in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: On Sat, 12 Jun 2010 09:36:12 -0700 (PDT), " wrote: When I was in school, these were every boy's favorite, and almost the only useful education we got. I would say litigation. Bingo! As was said once, the US was pretty good in technologies which teenagers occasionally lost fingers in. -- pyotr filipivich We will drink no whiskey before its nine. It's eight fifty eight. Close enough! |
Why are schools dumping auto shop, wood shop, and metal shop?
"Existential Angst" on Sat, 12 Jun 2010
15:14:16 -0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: "Ignoramus1737" wrote in message ... Appx. 22 years ago, as patr of my school curriculum, I underwent a vocational class that culminated with me getting a lathe operator's license. I loved the class, though when we visited the actual factory where I was told people with my training work, I realized that higher education was the way to go. Without that class, I am sure that I would not end up with a garage full of machine tools. Funny thing about "higher" education: You can't do a goddamm thing with it, in actuality, but it does open doors, ups the salary ante. Higher ed is like a mental hazing. The most useless people on earth are Manhattan's higher-educated echelon. But, with pretty good paychecks. If they can get those paychecks. For most liberal art majors, the ones with the degree in "---- Studies", the reality is they graduate with a monstrous debt load and a degree which is useless in the real world. So they are stuck with the low end jobs which don't pay, and a student loan payment that sucks the life out of them. "higher ed" is going to be the next "bubble" to pop. Just like the housing bubble, people are being loaned money they have no hope of repaying. -- pyotr filipivich We will drink no whiskey before its nine. It's eight fifty eight. Close enough! |
Why are schools dumping auto shop, wood shop, and metal shop?
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... -snip- When I was in school, these were every boy's favorite, and almost the only useful education we got. I would say litigation. -snip- Something to be aware of in this subject is what happened to industrial arts teaching as far back as the late 1800s. The initial push for shop classes was NOT to teach kids the skills they'd need for jobs in industry. It was to "build an appreciation" for "industriousness," and to provide "cultural industrial education" as part of a broad curriculum. In other words, it -snip- There is little support in most communities to fund industrial arts education, except in the vo-tech specialty schools. There is *tremendous* pressure for kids to score higher on national math and English tests. And that's why we're where we are today. -- Ed Huntress likewise, they could also be exposing kids, boys in particular, to fine arts (painting, sculpture, music, etc.). i'd imagine that also used to be part of a classical education. now there's too much pressure to *not* teach kids about the arts. i think that's a damn shame. oh, and i took all the shop classes (except printing) and won the "industrial arts award" when i graduated high school. b.w. |
Why are schools dumping auto shop, wood shop, and metal shop?
Sunworshipper wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jun 2010 09:36:12 -0700 (PDT), " wrote: When I was in school, these were every boy's favorite, and almost the only useful education we got. I would say litigation. As my son was proceeding through public school system in California I was wondering what was happening to the wood and metal shop classes. His middle school was the last school in the district that still offered metal and wood shop. When the teacher retired (and my son moved onto high school), the middle school shops were closed. They could not find anybody who had both a valid teaching certificate for California and the technical arts option. I dug a little deeper and said "why?". It turns out that only one teaching school down in southern Cal. provided the training for teachers that wanted to teach technical arts *and* very few people were enrolling in the classes. So, when the technical arts instructor retires, the principal posts an ad for a trained technical arts instructor, gets no responses, and shuts the metal/wood shops down. A year or two later, the equipment is auctioned off so the space can be reused. Meanwhile, kids in school are going ga-ga over robotics and want to build them and there are no facilities at the schools to build them. It is kind of sad. -Wayne |
Why are schools dumping auto shop, wood shop, and metal shop?
"William Wixon" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... -snip- When I was in school, these were every boy's favorite, and almost the only useful education we got. I would say litigation. -snip- Something to be aware of in this subject is what happened to industrial arts teaching as far back as the late 1800s. The initial push for shop classes was NOT to teach kids the skills they'd need for jobs in industry. It was to "build an appreciation" for "industriousness," and to provide "cultural industrial education" as part of a broad curriculum. In other words, it -snip- There is little support in most communities to fund industrial arts education, except in the vo-tech specialty schools. There is *tremendous* pressure for kids to score higher on national math and English tests. And that's why we're where we are today. -- Ed Huntress likewise, they could also be exposing kids, boys in particular, to fine arts (painting, sculpture, music, etc.). i'd imagine that also used to be part of a classical education. now there's too much pressure to *not* teach kids about the arts. i think that's a damn shame. I agree. oh, and i took all the shop classes (except printing) and won the "industrial arts award" when i graduated high school. b.w. |
Why are schools dumping auto shop, wood shop, and metal shop?
On Jun 12, 5:18*pm, "William Wixon" wrote:
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... -snip- When I was in school, these were every boy's favorite, and almost the only useful education we got. I would say litigation. -snip- Something to be aware of in this subject is what happened to industrial arts teaching as far back as the late 1800s. The initial push for shop classes was NOT to teach kids the skills they'd need for jobs in industry. It was to "build an appreciation" for "industriousness," and to provide "cultural industrial education" as part of a broad curriculum. In other words, it -snip- There is little support in most communities to fund industrial arts education, except in the vo-tech specialty schools. There is *tremendous* pressure for kids to score higher on national math and English tests. And that's why we're where we are today. -- Ed Huntress likewise, they could also be exposing kids, boys in particular, to fine arts (painting, sculpture, music, etc.). *i'd imagine that also used to be part of a classical education. *now there's too much pressure to *not* teach kids about the arts. *i think that's a damn shame. oh, and i took all the shop classes (except printing) and won the "industrial arts award" when i graduated high school. b.w.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - http://www.answers.com/topic/vocatio...on-act-of-1917 A Review of Federal Vocational-Education Legislation 1862-1963 http://www.jstor.org/pss/1475196 I finish my Apprenticeship as a machinist in the fifties. In 1972 after working more than 15 years in the trade, Philadelphia was opening three dedicate Vocational plants. Test was given for all craftspeople needed. The Vocational legislation required that to teach Voc-Ed, 15 years in a trade is required We would be hired to teach at the level of pay that our years of work experience brought to the teaching position. We receive a temporary certification with the promise that we would enroll in the certifying college and complete the required courses in 10 years. The industrial Art teachers and the unions hated this and use many methods to get their members into the positions. One of the classes that I took, an introduction to Voc-Ed, it was said that prior to World War one, most of the craftsmen was born in Europe. WW1 stop the flow and the Legislators felt that the way to train US craftsmen was to use experience craftsperson. The Union got their way and I was on the list as a sub for a few years and was promoted on my night job and didn't follow through. billcotton.com |
Why are schools dumping auto shop, wood shop, and metal shop?
"Existential Angst" wrote in message ... "Ignoramus1737" wrote in message ... Appx. 22 years ago, as patr of my school curriculum, I underwent a vocational class that culminated with me getting a lathe operator's license. I loved the class, though when we visited the actual factory where I was told people with my training work, I realized that higher education was the way to go. Without that class, I am sure that I would not end up with a garage full of machine tools. Funny thing about "higher" education: You can't do a goddamm thing with it, in actuality, but it does open doors, ups the salary ante. Higher ed is like a mental hazing. The most useless people on earth are Manhattan's higher-educated echelon. But, with pretty good paychecks. -- EA I assume you're talking about financial execs. Actually, they're very useful, if a greedy lot by nature. The trouble is there are so many crooks among them. Otherwise, Manhattan's "higher-educated echelon," in business, the arts, publishing, and so on are mostly useful. That's why they're paid well. -- Ed Huntress |
Why are schools dumping auto shop, wood shop, and metal shop?
On 2010-06-12, Existential Angst wrote:
"Ignoramus1737" wrote in message ... Appx. 22 years ago, as patr of my school curriculum, I underwent a vocational class that culminated with me getting a lathe operator's license. I loved the class, though when we visited the actual factory where I was told people with my training work, I realized that higher education was the way to go. Without that class, I am sure that I would not end up with a garage full of machine tools. Funny thing about "higher" education: You can't do a goddamm thing with it, in actuality, but it does open doors, ups the salary ante. Higher ed is like a mental hazing. The most useless people on earth are Manhattan's higher-educated echelon. But, with pretty good paychecks. Why, I respectfully disagree. I use a bunch of things I learned in higher ed, at work. i |
Why are schools dumping auto shop, wood shop, and metal shop?
Ignoramus1737 wrote:
Appx. 22 years ago, as patr of my school curriculum, I underwent a vocational class that culminated with me getting a lathe operator's license. I took industrial arts many years ago until a drunk driver wiped out David Blume, my instructor, and his family. He managed to instill an interest in using my brains and hands to make things before his life was ended way too short. I loved the class, though when we visited the actual factory where I was told people with my training work, I realized that higher education was the way to go. I'm a big fan of education when it encompasses real things like math, physics, engineering, chemistry, and medical related activities. Fuzzy things like polysci and the boutique activities like race history and other non core liberal arts crap do not seem worth the expense Without that class, I am sure that I would not end up with a garage full of machine tools. Thinking people need outlets to channel their creative energies. Using your brain in a non working environment keeps your mind agile and is a healthy form of relaxation. Wes -- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller |
Why are schools dumping auto shop, wood shop, and metal shop?
"William Wixon" wrote:
oh, and i took all the shop classes (except printing) and won the "industrial arts award" when i graduated high school. Didn't win awards, but I've set type on a platten style printing press. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pl...ting_press.jpg Wes -- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller |
Why are schools dumping auto shop, wood shop, and metal shop?
"Wes" wrote in message ... "William Wixon" wrote: oh, and i took all the shop classes (except printing) and won the "industrial arts award" when i graduated high school. Didn't win awards, but I've set type on a platten style printing press. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pl...ting_press.jpg Wes i did that when i got to college. b.w. |
Why are schools dumping auto shop, wood shop, and metal shop?
On 2010-06-12, Wes wrote:
Ignoramus1737 wrote: Appx. 22 years ago, as patr of my school curriculum, I underwent a vocational class that culminated with me getting a lathe operator's license. I took industrial arts many years ago until a drunk driver wiped out David Blume, my instructor, and his family. He managed to instill an interest in using my brains and hands to make things before his life was ended way too short. You were one of the lucky ones who were exposed to this sort of stuff, almost by accident. I loved the class, though when we visited the actual factory where I was told people with my training work, I realized that higher education was the way to go. I'm a big fan of education when it encompasses real things like math, physics, engineering, chemistry, and medical related activities. Fuzzy things like polysci and the boutique activities like race history and other non core liberal arts crap do not seem worth the expense I agree. I learned computer science. Without that class, I am sure that I would not end up with a garage full of machine tools. Thinking people need outlets to channel their creative energies. Using your brain in a non working environment keeps your mind agile and is a healthy form of relaxation. I agree, plus it is great to learn from you and others who know so much more than me. I put the head on the CNC mill today, it was a pain due to shop crane's legs getting in the way of the mill's base. I had to shorten the legs and put a lot of weight on the back of the crane. i |
Why are schools dumping auto shop, wood shop, and metal shop?
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Why are schools dumping auto shop, wood shop, and metal shop?
Al Dykes wrote: In article , wrote: When I was in school, these were every boy's favorite, and almost the only useful education we got. The Voc-Tech I attended mumble decades ago had a first-class 3 year machine shop program. I'm told it's now a good computer CAD/CAM course. They also had college-track electronics and mechanical engineering programs. The Mech students got several semesters in machine shop. There was nothing like that for us Electrical majors. I got two years of metal shop, three years of wood shop, two of drafting and two of electronics in the seventh through twelfth grades in the '60s. The school councilors wanted me to take a different path, and kept harping on "wasting your IQ". I didn't want to go to medical school or law school. I wanted to work with my hands. To build things from scratch. I still have my drafting table, and I've been out of school for 40 years. -- Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to have a DD214, and a honorable discharge. |
Why are schools dumping auto shop, wood shop, and metal shop?
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
... Al Dykes wrote: In article , wrote: When I was in school, these were every boy's favorite, and almost the only useful education we got. The Voc-Tech I attended mumble decades ago had a first-class 3 year machine shop program. I'm told it's now a good computer CAD/CAM course. They also had college-track electronics and mechanical engineering programs. The Mech students got several semesters in machine shop. There was nothing like that for us Electrical majors. I got two years of metal shop, three years of wood shop, two of drafting and two of electronics in the seventh through twelfth grades in the '60s. The school councilors wanted me to take a different path, and kept harping on "wasting your IQ". I think they might have been using "wasting your IQ" as in "wasting money", the concern being that mebbe you would soon not have much to function with. Talk about counselors with a crystal ball.... -- EA I didn't want to go to medical school or law school. I wanted to work with my hands. To build things from scratch. I still have my drafting table, and I've been out of school for 40 years. -- Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to have a DD214, and a honorable discharge. |
Why are schools dumping auto shop, wood shop, and metal shop?
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
... "Existential Angst" wrote in message ... "Ignoramus1737" wrote in message ... Appx. 22 years ago, as patr of my school curriculum, I underwent a vocational class that culminated with me getting a lathe operator's license. I loved the class, though when we visited the actual factory where I was told people with my training work, I realized that higher education was the way to go. Without that class, I am sure that I would not end up with a garage full of machine tools. Funny thing about "higher" education: You can't do a goddamm thing with it, in actuality, but it does open doors, ups the salary ante. Higher ed is like a mental hazing. The most useless people on earth are Manhattan's higher-educated echelon. But, with pretty good paychecks. -- EA I assume you're talking about financial execs. Actually, they're very useful, if a greedy lot by nature. The trouble is there are so many crooks among them. Otherwise, Manhattan's "higher-educated echelon," in business, the arts, publishing, and so on are mostly useful. That's why they're paid well. They really aren't doing anything any different than what John Gotti or 50c or P Diddly are doing. Once you embrace a system, you just have to be sufficiently weasely to ride its coattails, or climb up a bit and suck on its tits. But no biting..... Remember Trading Places (Eddie Murphy). -- EA -- Ed Huntress |
Why are schools dumping auto shop, wood shop, and metal shop?
Existential Angst wrote: "Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message ... Al Dykes wrote: In article , wrote: When I was in school, these were every boy's favorite, and almost the only useful education we got. The Voc-Tech I attended mumble decades ago had a first-class 3 year machine shop program. I'm told it's now a good computer CAD/CAM course. They also had college-track electronics and mechanical engineering programs. The Mech students got several semesters in machine shop. There was nothing like that for us Electrical majors. I got two years of metal shop, three years of wood shop, two of drafting and two of electronics in the seventh through twelfth grades in the '60s. The school councilors wanted me to take a different path, and kept harping on "wasting your IQ". I think they might have been using "wasting your IQ" as in "wasting money", the concern being that mebbe you would soon not have much to function with. Talk about counselors with a crystal ball.... Yawn. All you do is talk about people's balls. -- Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to have a DD214, and a honorable discharge. |
Why are schools dumping auto shop, wood shop, and metal shop?
On Jun 12, 2:44*pm, Ignoramus1737
wrote: Appx. 22 years ago, as patr of my school curriculum, I underwent a vocational class that culminated with me getting a lathe operator's license. I loved the class, though when we visited the actual factory where I was told people with my training work, I realized that higher education was the way to go. Without that class, I am sure that I would not end up with a garage full of machine tools. With all due respect, Iggy, one of the reasons shop classes (and other not-strictly-academic classes) are disappearing is because certain parents are upset that their kids are reading "only" in the 92nd percentile. Just sayin' |
Why are schools dumping auto shop, wood shop, and metal shop?
On 2010-06-13, rangerssuck wrote:
On Jun 12, 2:44?pm, Ignoramus1737 wrote: Appx. 22 years ago, as patr of my school curriculum, I underwent a vocational class that culminated with me getting a lathe operator's license. I loved the class, though when we visited the actual factory where I was told people with my training work, I realized that higher education was the way to go. Without that class, I am sure that I would not end up with a garage full of machine tools. With all due respect, Iggy, one of the reasons shop classes (and other not-strictly-academic classes) are disappearing is because certain parents are upset that their kids are reading "only" in the 92nd percentile. Percentiles are hard things. People whose kids are in 92nd percentile make up only 8% of people. So they cannot be responsible for everything. I personally would love to have a ship class at my kids' school. i |
Why are schools dumping auto shop, wood shop, and metal shop?
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message ... Existential Angst wrote: I think they might have been using "wasting your IQ" as in "wasting money", the concern being that mebbe you would soon not have much to function with. Talk about counselors with a crystal ball.... Yawn. All you do is talk about people's balls. -- I think the food replicator wason the blink again |
Why are schools dumping auto shop, wood shop, and metal shop?
On Jun 12, 11:02*pm, (Al Dykes) wrote:
... They also had college-track electronics and mechanical engineering programs. *The Mech students got several semesters in machine shop. There was nothing like that for us Electrical majors. Al Dykes Maybe that's because a good tech can assemble any circuit you can design, but you certainly can sketch a part which is difficult or impossible to machine. I've seen MEs at the Bridgeport a lot more often than EEs soldering. jsw, who does both. |
Why are schools dumping auto shop, wood shop, and metal shop?
"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message ... On Jun 12, 11:02 pm, (Al Dykes) wrote: ... They also had college-track electronics and mechanical engineering programs. The Mech students got several semesters in machine shop. There was nothing like that for us Electrical majors. Al Dykes Maybe that's because a good tech can assemble any circuit you can design, but you certainly can sketch a part which is difficult or impossible to machine. I've seen MEs at the Bridgeport a lot more often than EEs soldering. jsw, who does both. But have you seen a North American Marketing Manager in a shirt and tie, doing board-level testing and repairs on an EDM power supply? That was me, at Sodick. g -- Ed Huntress |
Why are schools dumping auto shop, wood shop, and metal shop?
On Jun 13, 11:30*am, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message ... But have you seen a North American Marketing Manager in a shirt and tie, doing board-level testing and repairs on an EDM power supply? That was me, at Sodick. g Ed Huntress Having both manual and people skills isn't that rare, Jan Paderewski and Perez de Cuellar were diplomats and concert pianists, Eddie Rickenbacker could build a car from scratch but took the head sales position in his car company. I've seen some nice car restorations in the barns of local politicians. I think a lot of the people who mix those abilities become doctors or naval officers, not to say that the inverse is true. jsw |
Why are schools dumping auto shop, wood shop, and metal shop?
"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message ... On Jun 13, 11:30 am, "Ed Huntress" wrote: "Jim Wilkins" wrote in message ... But have you seen a North American Marketing Manager in a shirt and tie, doing board-level testing and repairs on an EDM power supply? That was me, at Sodick. g Ed Huntress Having both manual and people skills isn't that rare, Jan Paderewski and Perez de Cuellar were diplomats and concert pianists, Eddie Rickenbacker could build a car from scratch but took the head sales position in his car company. I've seen some nice car restorations in the barns of local politicians. I think a lot of the people who mix those abilities become doctors or naval officers, not to say that the inverse is true. jsw naval officers, first one comes to mind is jimmy carter, a skilled woodworker. b.w. |
Why are schools dumping auto shop, wood shop, and metal shop?
"William Wixon" wrote in news:Ct7Rn.30415$yx.16404
@newsfe13.iad: naval officers, first one comes to mind is jimmy carter, a skilled woodworker. He should have stayed with woodworking and kept out of politics where he re-defined "inept". |
Why are schools dumping auto shop, wood shop, and metal shop?
On Jun 13, 12:14*pm, "William Wixon" wrote:
"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message ... I think a lot of the people who mix those abilities become doctors or naval officers, not to say that the inverse is true. jsw naval officers, first one comes to mind is jimmy carter, a skilled woodworker. b.w. It's because they live on and have to thoroughly understand very complex machines, and hopefully posess the leadership ability to be a ship's captain. In his books Admiral O'Kane described the details of this and celestial navigation from when he was a WW2 submarine executive officer: http://www.maritime.org/tdc.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_O'Kane He was both the best and the second best torpedo shooter we had, the catch being that as exec he did the aiming for the #1 scoring skipper before he got his own boat. He attributed his skill to intensive practice at judging the angle on the bow of the target, ie its course relative to his position. jsw |
Why are schools dumping auto shop, wood shop, and metal shop?
On 13 Jun 2010 16:42:01 GMT, Eregon
wrote: "William Wixon" wrote in news:Ct7Rn.30415$yx.16404 : naval officers, first one comes to mind is jimmy carter, a skilled woodworker. He should have stayed with woodworking and kept out of politics where he re-defined "inept". ============ You don't get to be Navy nuclear command qualified by being a no-load dick weed. In hindsight, Carter's major problem was that he is a competent and honorable man, used to dealing with competent and honorable men. Thus he was at a severe disadvantage dealing with the Washington establishment and their symbiotic corporations, where deceit, corruption and deception are a way of life and an art form. He compounded this handicap by largely surrounding himself with competent and honorable people rather than thugs, political operatives, and "spin-meisters." -- Unka George (George McDuffee) ............................... The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there. L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author. The Go-Between, Prologue (1953). |
Why are schools dumping auto shop, wood shop, and metal shop?
Ala wrote: "Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message ... Existential Angst wrote: I think they might have been using "wasting your IQ" as in "wasting money", the concern being that mebbe you would soon not have much to function with. Talk about counselors with a crystal ball.... Yawn. All you do is talk about people's balls. -- I think the food replicator wason the blink again And he's always munching on something. :( -- Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to have a DD214, and a honorable discharge. |
Why are schools dumping auto shop, wood shop, and metal shop?
On Jun 13, 7:37*pm, "William Wixon" wrote:
... i figured carter did'nt want to send men to their deaths (to "GO KICK IRAN'S ASS!") because of pride or because he'd be voted out of office. i think he did the honorable thing in iran. *and calling for americans to make sacrifice... obvious, but something you can't say in politics. b.w. Carter was hotly and heavily involved in the rescue mission planning, waaay beyond his competence as a submarine officer. I heard that first- hand from one of the planners. He was also the only president who bothered to learn the SIOP procedures. Reagan just asked "What do I do now, General?" jsw |
Why are schools dumping auto shop, wood shop, and metal shop?
"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message ... On 13 Jun 2010 16:42:01 GMT, Eregon wrote: "William Wixon" wrote in news:Ct7Rn.30415$yx.16404 : naval officers, first one comes to mind is jimmy carter, a skilled woodworker. He should have stayed with woodworking and kept out of politics where he re-defined "inept". ============ You don't get to be Navy nuclear command qualified by being a no-load dick weed. In hindsight, Carter's major problem was that he is a competent and honorable man, used to dealing with competent and honorable men. Thus he was at a severe disadvantage dealing with the Washington establishment and their symbiotic corporations, where deceit, corruption and deception are a way of life and an art form. He compounded this handicap by largely surrounding himself with competent and honorable people rather than thugs, political operatives, and "spin-meisters." -- Unka George (George McDuffee) well put george. i figured carter did'nt want to send men to their deaths (to "GO KICK IRAN'S ASS!") because of pride or because he'd be voted out of office. i think he did the honorable thing in iran. and calling for americans to make sacrifice... obvious, but something you can't say in politics. b.w. |
Why are schools dumping auto shop, wood shop, and metal shop?
"William Wixon" wrote:
naval officers, first one comes to mind is jimmy carter, a skilled woodworker. At least he was good at something snort |
Why are schools dumping auto shop, wood shop, and metal shop?
Jim Wilkins wrote:
Carter was hotly and heavily involved in the rescue mission planning, waaay beyond his competence as a submarine officer. I heard that first- hand from one of the planners. He was also the only president who bothered to learn the SIOP procedures. Reagan just asked "What do I do now, General?" Bush I (42) also tended to let his General's do their job. Seemed to have worked in Desert Storm. I'm not going to rehash Johnson and Vietnam, we know that was a failure. Wes -- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller |
Why are schools dumping auto shop, wood shop, and metal shop?
On Jun 12, 9:36*am, "
wrote: When I was in school, these were every boy's favorite, and almost the only useful education we got. I think a big part of why the vocational arts have disappeared from schools is cost. Can you imaging how much a machine shop classroom costs to operate, compared to, say, English? Classroom budgets are tight enough when you don't have to buy tooling and materials, maintain and repair machines etc. etc.. |
Why are schools dumping auto shop, wood shop, and metal shop?
On Jun 13, 10:58*am, Ignoramus7400
wrote: On 2010-06-13, rangerssuck wrote: On Jun 12, 2:44?pm, Ignoramus1737 wrote: Appx. 22 years ago, as patr of my school curriculum, I underwent a vocational class that culminated with me getting a lathe operator's license. I loved the class, though when we visited the actual factory where I was told people with my training work, I realized that higher education was the way to go. Without that class, I am sure that I would not end up with a garage full of machine tools. With all due respect, Iggy, one of the reasons shop classes (and other not-strictly-academic classes) are disappearing is because certain parents are upset that their kids are reading "only" in the 92nd percentile. Percentiles are hard things. People whose kids are in 92nd percentile make up only 8% of people. So they cannot be responsible for everything. I personally would love to have a ship class at my kids' school. i Without having any real data to back this up other than my own observation of local government, I would venture to say that the parents of those top 8% of students are likely the most involved and, as such, have a disproportionate influence. If you want shop class, then start making noise at the board of education. |
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