"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Mary Fisher wrote:

Your reply was far too long for me to answer in detail at a time when I'm
getting on with my little life - Monday is washing day you know. But
since everyone needs a hobby and although you say that you're short of
time you've spent a lot of it on just this one post I did what seems to
be common on Usenet and picked out a couple of things to answer.

Fairy nuff... (a good amount of the post was a cut'n'paste from a gov web
site though which did not take me long ;-). Forgive me if I do the same
(not answer everything that is, not do the washing!).

Well look at it this way. Would a criminal be able to impersonate you to
a

No. We shred and compost non shiny paper, you should have expected that
:-)

Aha, the plot thickens...

I have obviously been reading some of your statements about having
"nothing to hide" and not caring who knows your personal information a
little too literally.

I think you misunderstand.We shred paper for the sake of the garden, not to
protect it. We shred everything we can.

We don't shred bank statements though because we want a permanent record of
our activities - it's a matter of habit. They're kept in one of the four
filing cabinets we have with the rest of the record of our lives.

You demonstrate here that you do care, and you do take (very sensible
IMHO) steps to "hide" personal data that could be of value to criminals.

Hide in our filing cabinets? Even I can't always put my hand on something,
God help a burglar!

Are you aware of the implications of hiding nothing?

There haven't been any problems so far. In that historical context I'm
happy to continue.

This is what threw me... sounds like we have conflicting understanding of
"hiding" stuff. Responsible management of waste paper containing personal
data I would count as "hiding" something.

(same goes for wiping / destroying old hard drives prior to disposal)

We haven't disposed of any.

Which reminds me - what adhesive will stick CDs to an outside wall painted
with masonry paint? There, that's d-i-y.

I would agree with you, money is not that important. I rate it about
level with oxygen. If you have enough it ceases to matter.


Trite. I might as well say that if you don't have money you have no money
worries.

You may find the local butcher has a different viewpoint as you exit with
next weeks roast in exchange for nothing but gratitude ;-)

We don't buy meat from the butcher, as I've said before. But I have found -
although we don't need it - that a barter system works very well between
those who have things to offer which others want.

Perhaps because over the last six month period your[1] spending pattern
had changed and you started to run up large debts that you did not repay.

Of course you did not notice this because it was not you doing it.


You underestimate me. Ever heard of on-line banking? Ever heard of being
able to check your account at any time? We don't rely on paper
statements.

Yup I know online banking. Again I was illustrating just one way people
can be vulnerable to the work of ID thieves.

You will pardon me if I don't expand on the technicalities, but there are
ways the exact same technique could be deployed against on online banking
service as well.

Ah! I suspected that you wouldn't resist that bait :-)

If you shred all paper evidence of your life and won't commit anything to
the pc (except your website, curiously) how can you check on past
transactions, if you need to? If you have a business surely you have to have
evidence if only for your accountant?


I'm beginning to wonder if you've done this yourself, it's so carefully
thought out.

Did not take much effort to think up... not sure what you can read into
that. Engineers have devious minds perhaps!

Some people in all disciplines have devious minds. It's not peculiar to
engineers, in my experience.

Perhaps you have but we haven't. We don't overdraw. Credit accounts are
paid by DD, in full. As are all utility bills. We have no debts, none.

That doesn't mean, by the way, that we are wealthy, it means that we
don't spend more than we can afford. Ever. If we can't afford something
we do without - but as I've said ad nauseam we don't want anything we
don't need and we have everything we need.

Very wise I might say... (no fan of debt myself). I like CC cards for the
security they bring to some classes of purchase however.

Not for much longer, I understand.

I am a little less trusting on the DD front since I like to have a little
input into the settling up phase to catch any mistakes sooner.

To date there have been no mistakes- and before you start talking about
toddlers running into roads I'll say that I'm no toddler and ask how long a
history do you need to have trust in a process? We've used it for decades.
The DD process seems to my tiny mind to be ideal. We're responsible for
setting it up, we're informed if anything changes - well in advance. It
saves the problems involved in forgetting to pay bills and associated
worries. I have too many important and enjoyable things in my life to have
to remember to pay bills.

If you're replying directly to my post and my words what other
interpretation is there?

Tis the thing about usenet, if its not a new thread then it must be a
reply to a post...

So you ARE being personal.

I don't want 'flexibility'. I don't know how basic transactions can cost
more.

You may be aware of the rating systems that banks use to score the
desirability of their customers (some seem to use a fruit scale (i.e.
apples, pears etc) for some reason). Depending on which fruit you have
associated with your account will dictate how hard they will work to keep
you as a customer. This can range from not at all (i.e will actually seek
to upset you in the hope you take your business elsewhere - bills for
anything and everything - take it or leave it), to bending over backwards
to retain your custom (i.e. everything being negotiable).


They seem to do that with us, for what reason I don't know, our income is
very low, our activity fairly high, they can't make much profit on us!
They could exist without us and we without them.

Perhaps you are a "safe" customer from their point of view.

I'm sure we are safe, almost ideal.

Perhaps their data mining exercises have shown you have a good correlation
to customers who are likely to make use of some of their more profitable
services at some point in your life... will writing, releasing equity in
property for long term care arrangements etc (not saying you (as in the
actual "you" in this case) will, but such is the non precise nature of
data mining). Might just be good ole, customer service and loyalty. (one
holds out hope it still exists)

They do know that three of our progeny have begun accounts with them because
of our recommendation, that's the sort of thing banks like I imagine.
Although that was back in the days when it was an English bank :-( Still,
things haven't changed in any significant way in the interface between the
bank and the customer.

Usenet is compromised, you use that.

True, but not for transacting online payments ;-)

But data mining can tell someone who's interested an awful lot about you
just from Usenet ...

One of the ID register's supporters claims is that it will make this type
of activity harder. One of the things that is clear to those who
understand the engineering and the social interactions of what is being
proposed, can see it that in fact the reverse is true - it will make
these things not only more common, but also far harder to detect.


You're saying that you know better than anyone else...

I am saying I know more about software and engineering than many
politicians, although I don't think many people would find that statement
too hard to accept, or even consider it just an ego thing ;-)

No. Most people think they know better than politicians. But you seemed to
be saying that you knew better than the IT systems which would be used.I
don't know how you know who or what WILL be used but I don't know much after
all.

Collect enough seeming innocent bits of low grade information and before
long you have the foundations of a very strong attack - right round the
defences that the designers implemented to keep it secure.


Then you and your highly able colleagues must make sure that the defences
you design and implement must be secure.

Nice idea, but alas it does not work like that.

Why not?

Are you saying that you're incapable of designing a secure system?


A survey shows that 70% or more people would give up the security to their
employers computer systems in exchange for an Easter egg or a cup of
coffee!

That doesn't surprise me. If people think that something's free they'll do
almost anything, it seems to me.

I have advertising sent to me daily offering me 'free gifts' - some seem to
be very tempting if they're directed at the right person. I'm told what a
wonderful customer I am (even though I haven't bought anything), that I have
a prize-winning record...all for things which I've been able to live without
for many decades. Yes, I realise that they've got my name and address
through some kind of low grade data mining and it bothers me - but only
because of all the waste paper. Of course it's shredded and turned into food
but I suspect that many people are tempted. That's business, it keeps people
in employment, money going round ... I've said before that if the economy
depended on the Fishers there wouldn't be an economy but that's another
story.



This thread has listed so many reasons for objecting to ID cards that I
suspect no-one's really sure why they are nervous about them.

To an extent that it true. The proposals would appear to make a whole new
class of criminal activity and state interference in peoples lives more
likely and easier to carry out. This is however by its very nature a
nebulous threat. Until that potential is turned into reality we do not
know which of the multitude of possibilities to be most concerned about.

The criminal implication has not been the only one people have cited.

If it weren't open (as some think) to criminal activity would you agree to
having an ID system?


I'm not unique. Argumentative, arrogant and opinionated but not unique.

Not sure I have an answer to that ;-)

You don't need to, it's an example of my openness. No-one can say anything
true about me which I'm not prepared to say about myself.

I guess many people are actually quite attached to their meaningless
little lives


Yes sigh It shows.


and the fate and well-being of their families. Hence they have very real
fears that these will be threatened by being railroaded into ill
conceived systems that may result in their being exposed to new ways for
their status quo being upset.


You really think that most people in this country are trembling at the
thought of ID cards?

No, I expect most have not given the issue any serious consideration and
are more interested in what happens next on Eastenders....

Yes. But so what?

I think they have more things to worry about, such as whether to get a
new i-Pod or wait until there's one with a striped strap ...

I expect you are right... And there is a whole debate to be had there on
the digital rights management built into the thing - but we can save that
for a later thread! ;-)

Better, perhaps ...

Mary