"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Mary Fisher wrote:

Do you truly believe you have nothing to hide?


Yes. What sort of thing do you think I might be hiding?

You ought to be hiding the information that would readily enable someone
to commit fraud while impersonating you. If you don't then not only do you
suffer the consequences, but so do many others.

That's not specific enough. And even if it were I'm not going to be told
what I OUGHT to be hiding.

Are you aware of the implications of hiding nothing?

There haven't been any problems so far. In that historical context I'm
happy to continue.

This is much like the argument presented by our four year old when told
off for running out into the road - "its ok daddy, I didn't get run
over" - the implication being that since they got away with it this time
they always will. In other words they have no understanding of risk.

So what are you suggesting? That one never crosses the road?

Given the content of the (proposed) information that would be held about
you in the ID database it would be possible (in fact easy) for those with
criminal intent to misappropriate your identity. From that starting
point, they could demolish many aspects of your life for their own
financial gain. This is not a pipe dream of my over active imagination,
it happens to thousands of people every year already.


LOL! Who would want any aspect of my life?

Chances are no one.... directly. However they might like the money they
could either steal from you directly, or more likely, steal from financial
institutions by using your impeccable credit rating.

Money money money money money money money ... there are other things in
life.

You assume that for example your credit rating is of no relevance to you
because you don't seek credit. Do you realise that it will dictate
whether you are allowed to open an account at a bank or building society,
have a cheque book,

We already have those things but they're not essential.

If the bank decided you were no longer trustworthy with a cheque book and
took yours away?

We start to use cash. But why should the bank/s think that about us?

What if your bank decides you're not trustworthy?

Why should they? They have many years of records. A glitch would be
queried.That has happened.

If every time you went overdrawn by a penny

We never overdraw. It's not responsible. We are responsible.


Even if you don't care, don't you suppose another might?

What has this to do with the thread? I'm not responsible for others.

take out life insurance etc.

Because I'm honest I couldn't get life insurance but I don't want it.

Some do....

You were targeting me.

It will dictate the terms and conditions under which many financial
institutions will deal with you. With a poor rating you become a second
class citizen in their eyes.

So what?

It costs you more to carry out basic transactions, and you have less
flexibility.

You're assuming that we live our lives like Mr and Mrs Average, that we need
'flexibility' (by which, since you haven't specified what you mean, I assume
you mean credit). Loans. Hire purchase. We don't, we don't have or need
those things.

That reminds me of the time I chose to take out a six months interest free
loan so that our money could continue earning interest, we'd pay before the
endof six months.There was a terrible kerfuffle to our amusement, they
couldn't give us the loan because we had no credit rating - because we
didn't have a mortgage nor any loans of any kind.

In the end they did, because I laughed so much. They'd never come across
that situation before. What a society! Naturally the 'loan' WAS paid within
the time limit.


I would, but it could happen now so that's a red herring in terms of an
ID system.

It has everything to do with the ready availability of information - the
ID database will concentrate all these different bits of information in
one place and make them accessible to anyone who wants them (irrespective
of the security measures put in place to prevent that).

I'm not sure that it will and don't know how you can be so sure that it
will. If it does we might change our attitude. We're not prepared to
compromise our principles on the say so of theories.


If a criminal decides that they can alter your ID database records, then
they can then use their highly trusted new identity with its good credit
rating to carry out fraud. Because it is assumed to be a high class form
of ID, less, rather than more checking is likely to be carried out.
Because it will subsume and slowly replace other databases (manual or
electronic) that contain versions of your ID, then the ability to cross
check will diminish as there will be ever fewer trusted sources to check
against.

That doesn't make sense in my eyes. You're painting a worst case scenario.
Such things can happen now, they rarely do.

How would you like to find that you have acquired a criminal record due
to someone's impersonation of your identity? Or perhaps an entry on the
sex offenders register?


In my arrogance I believe that if that happened my powers of persuasion
would put it right.

As your civil liberties erode still further

Civil liberties. What civil liberties are you thinking about? But why should
they erode? I haven't read a convincing argument that they will orwhy they
should. Or perhaps you're one of the people who would want to infiltrate the
system and are trying to get my details?

and we progress away from the "innocent until proven guilty" tenet our
legal system was based on,

Why should we?

to the reverse (as enacted in the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act,
The anti terrorism act, the football hooliganism act an so on) for
example, what proof of your innocence would you rely on?

I flutter my eyelashes.

What about if a "health tourist" used your details to obtain medical care
on the NHS? What if said care resulted in information being added to your
medical records that is completely incorrect (i.e. fora different
patient) and may result in incorrect treatments being offered to you in
the future?


Look, what has all this to do with ID cards? Despite its imperfections
there

The cards, not much... the database means the criminal has easy access to
all the the quality, correlated information necessary to perpetrate these
things.

What information do you imagine is going to be held on the database? And
what reason do you have for knowing that? And you ignored - no, cut - what I
said about my medical records.

are many (too many sometimes) enforced checks on health care for such
things to be extremely unlikely. If you tell me that they happen already
I believe you - but that means that it's not an argument against an ID
system.

The ID system will streamline them and automate them.

Not if it's as poorly designed and operated as you've suggested.

It will remove many points of human contact that often detect fraud.

How do you know?

If someone decided that your identity was a good one to steal, what would
you rather they have to do: log into one civil service Intranet site and
make a single update then have it ripple through all the interconnected
systems, or, make approaches to a multitude of different agencies and
bodies repeatedly telling them the same thing. Perhaps visit your branch
of the bank, where there is a possibility the teller may recognise you.
Each transaction they carry out in enacting the change brings with it the
risk of detection. More transactions are hence less convenient, but as a
result more secure.

You know, John, I'm beginning to feel sorry for you.


I suspect you are playing devil's advocate, I can't believe you really are
that green.

And I suspect the same about you.

I notice that my questions are often cunningly snipped so that appropriate
spin can be applied. Other answers are ignored.

Well, it don't work with me. My conscience is clear, my integrity is intact,
I have faith in myself and I suspect that others either don't or they're
frightened of something because they have something to hide.

What's more, I can't understand why you're so determined to convert me to
your suspicious belief system. You're wasting your energy. I'm neither for
nor aagainst ID systems, I can't understand why anyone's getting so uptight
about it. There are more important things to be concerned about than our
meaningless little lives - such as the fate of the Earth..

Mary