On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 21:01:06 -0600, Pete & sheri wrote:
Take a look at this link.

http://livesteaming.com/articles/finding.html

Note that was written 8 years ago, before MSC bought ENCO.
ENCO service and support is much better now (not up to MSC
levels, but much better). They've also dropped many of the
cheapest bits of tooling and machinery from their line, so they're
no longer the low price leader.

The new bottom feeder source is Harbor Freight, or the itinerant
tool sellers like Hornier or Cummins. What the author said about
ENCO 8 years ago now applies to them.

Buying new Asian machines is not a bad idea for the newbie. It
gets you a working machine with at least limited parts support for
a relatively low price. They often need a little work right out of the
box (cleanup, deburring, adjustment, etc), but that's good experience
which will familiarize you with the machine.

OTOH the author discounts used machinery purchases more than
is warranted. It is probably good advice for the complete newbie
who doesn't know what to look out for in a used machine. But the
used machinery market is currently very depressed (lots of shops
upgrading to CNC, lots of shops closing, school programs closing,
etc). So there are some excellent bargains available if you know
where to look for them.

Not every used machine you find will be clapped out, many are in
good to excellent condition, but with much lower asking prices
than 8 years ago. This is definitely a good time to consider used
machinery.

But you do need to educate yourself on what to look out for.
Research the particular machine you're considering, check
to see if the company which made it is still in business, and if
parts are still available. Many of them won't be. Know how to
check for wear in the ways and the motions, and how much
is too much. Know how to check the bearings. Etc.

Note, once you have a fairly well equipped shop, and some
experience, you can *make* replacement parts for orphan
machines. So don't walk away solely because an otherwise
attractive machine is an orphan. There's also a fairly robust
market in used machinery parts, even for the orphans.

There are good resources for researching older machinery on
the web. http://www.lathes.co.uk/page21.html is an invaluable
resource. It lists nearly every major machine tool ever made,
with a bit of history on the tool and the company. Spend a
couple of days there scouting out what should be available,
and what to avoid.

http://www.mermac.com/advicenew.html offers good general
guidance for buying a used lathe.

http://www.mermac.com/freemill2.html offers good general
advice for buying a used mill.

http://www.mermac.com/klunker2.html explains why even a beat
old clunker may be a good deal, if bought for the right reasons
in the right environment.

But with good to excellent used machines now so cheap, buying
a clunker isn't as attractive an option as it once was. If you need
a lathe for flame spraying or hardening, or need a lathe to use
for rough grinding, a clunker might be just the ticket. But for
general use, you probably want something in better condition,
and you can have it at a relatively low price in the current market.

Most industrial machinery will be 3 phase. Don't let that bother
you. There are easy and cheap solutions to that problem. Rotary
converters are easy and cheap to make, VFDs have come *way*
down in price. Etc.

One caveat. Good machines are *heavy*. Consider shipping costs
when contemplating a purchase. Often, it will cost more to ship
the machine than its purchase price. This can kill an otherwise
great deal. That's why people on this newsgroup are so adamant
about asking for the location of tools posted for sale here, and
why the East Coast posters moan about the great West Coast
deals, and vice versa.

If you buy local, your local rollback wrecker service can be your
friend. Many of them routinely move machinery, and their rates
are attractive.

Moving machinery yourself can be a challenge. Most machine
tools are top heavy, and can be very dangerous to move if you
don't know what you're doing and don't have the right equipment.
Hiring riggers who know this business can be a worthwhile,
though often expensive, way to get a machine out of where it is,
and into where you want it to be.

Many of us do move machinery ourselves. But it isn't something
you should approach lightly. A mistake can maim or kill you, or
someone else.

Again, weight is your friend in machine tools. The heavier the
better, more rigidity, less chatter, etc. But that weight does
mean it'll be more costly to move, and more dangerous to set
into place. Keep that in mind when considering machine tool
purchases of any sort.

Gary