"Peter Grey" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

I agree in principle with each of you, but practical experience is a
great
teacher. One of the hard lessons learned in life is buying something
that
is ill suited to a job, then trying to liquidate it in order to replace
it
with a tool that is better suited. The better investment would have
been
the proper tool to do the job at the outset. Often times the money is
gone
and the tool simply can't do the job at hand, and has poor resale value,
if
it can be sold at all.

A better financial investment perhaps, but I'm not concerned enough to
have
this be the only consideration. If I have to sell the mill/drill if I
find
something better, I will. I don't mind spending the time required in
order
to educate myself about which small used higher-quality machine will work,
is in my price range, is truly small enough and is being sold by a source
that I trust or is close enough so that I can look at the machine. While
I'm doing that, I can be making things (or trying to) and learning on an
RF30, which is a known entity.

Understood. The only fly in the ointment is that what you'll be learning
is how to wrestle with a given machine, with little to no idea of how good
or bad it is as it compares to other types of machines. Don't get me
wrong, I'm not saying that mill drills have no place, but they don't in my
life. I have as much experience with mills as you do with guitars.
Bottom line here is when you get more experience, one of the things you'll
regret is buying a machine without a knee, assuming you'll find yourself
involved in making something that requires various cutting tools and
precision locating of holes and related features. That, of course, is a
matter of how you learn to work. If you're a layout man, do everything by
scratching lines and center popping every hole, it likely makes no
difference. Personally, I can't remember the last time I made any kind of
layout for drilling, and my machine shop toolbox doesn't have a center punch
in it. There are far better ways to do work, so as a result I don't go that
route. By the way, using a DRO isn't how I go about my work. I trust my
dials, but then I've done that since the mid 50's and it's something I'm
comfortable with. It's all a matter of training and learned habits.

It's not a matter of being limited economically with no prospects of
anything better (Jeez, that sounds depressing).

Yeah, it does, but that's the real world for some folks. There are those
that would give anything to own even a mill drill.

I'm trying to find a
reasonable entry point into this "hobby". I've been heavily involved
with -
and taught - bicycle racing, music, car racing and other things that
require
equipment. I didn't buy the "best" equipment when I got into them because
I
didn't know if I needed it, and what my level of long term interest and
competancy was going to be. I believe that there is a point of
diminishing
returns for most things. I'm not yet convinced that for my needs, the
Bridgeport is the point of diminishing return.

Note that I did NOT recommend a Bridgeport, I simply stated that a
Bridgeport was the minimum level of acceptance for me considering the nature
of the work that would be received. I didn't go into my shop blindly, I
already knew that I would be doing tooling and product for the aero-space
industry.

I'm a jazz musician and there a ton of players that believe that one needs
a
$8,000 guitar in order to make good music. My 30 year old $1,500 guitar
feels and sounds like a $8,000 guitar, but I wouldn't have recognized this
guitar had I not owned and played a lot of other guitars. Those guitars
weren't what I wanted ultimately, but I learned a ton by playing them.
I'm
sure that the equivilent of my guitar exists in the mill world.

Yep, and that's my point. I noticed you weren't talking about a guitar
from Sears, and that's the equivalent of a mill drill.

How much do you suppose Wes Montgomery paid for his? I understand, as a
novice, where you're coming from considering my love for stereo equipment,
and my main listening pleasure, jazz

But I don't
yet know enough to recognize the used mill I need when I see it. Maybe
after hacking around on an RF30 for a year or so, I will. Or I may be
satisfied with what I have. BTW, I've got a bunch of guitars, all with
different purposes. You can never have too many - it's just like machine
tools.

I'm not going to be making my living at this and I don't think I can fit a
Bridgeport in my garage. I live in San Francisco and my house was built
90
years ago. Garages just weren't a priority. There may very well be a
small
Bridgeport or other high quality mill in my future. Using an RF 30 will
play an important role in learning enough to make an intelligent choice on
the "point of diminishing return" machine - assuming that for me the RF30
isn't it.

Regards,

Peter

Based on your description, you may be locked in to buying something less
than a Bridgeport TYPE of mill (drop spindle), I agree. Still, you have
options that would be a better choice, but those are decisions you must
make, not me. That's why I said what I did, giving you a view of an opinion
from someone that may see mill drills slightly differently from a guy that
has one but has never owned anything else. Ask a guy that has an
underpowered car if he's happy with it and he's likely to tell you he is,
until he's driven one with more power, anyway. And so it is with machining
features, whereby running a machine becomes less of a hassle by adding
particular features, one of which is a knee. Again, the call is yours.
Understand, though, that learning to run a mill drill will not be the same
as learning to run other machines, just as running bench top machines does
not equate to running larger machines. You will go through a learning
curve with each upgrade, but at least you'll have been making chips in the
interim, I agree.

I wish you luck with your choice, and would be interested in hearing what
you end up with.

Harold