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#41
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1920's wiring....
"bud--" wrote in message
.. . Existential Angst wrote: It's funny, we started with copper, went to tinned copper, went back to copper, slid further back to effing aluminum (goodgawd), learned from that mistake and went back to copper again. Altho power companies use aluminum in parts of their service -- and steel! As several people have said, steel is not used as a conductor. Yeah, I just looked -- that guy wire I thought was steel indeed appears to be alum! -- EA Aluminum is rather widely used inside buildings for larger sized wire. It is very common to use aluminum wire for the service wires from the utility connection to the meter to the service panel. The problems were with 15 and 20A branch circuits. Aluminum can still be used for them too, but not likely any time soon. -- bud-- |
#42
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1920's wiring....
"bud--" wrote in message
.. . Existential Angst wrote: "Jules" wrote in message news On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 23:04:48 -0700, terry wrote: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit for the curious) That was VERY inneresting!!! Am I correct in observing that the diagram shows two "radial" connections to the ring? The text talks about "unfused spurs". It took me a while to grok the "point" of the schematic, and when I did, it left me with a very big Q: How does a ring circuit SAVE copper? ? Yeah, I can see how you can use thinner gauge wire, but now you have to use twice as much of it! If you went straight out to a load and straight back there would be twice the wire. The circuit wanders around the building picking up loads as it goes. Excellent point! I see that!! That is really really neat! Iow, the geometry of the installation is sort of part of the schematic!! Current capacity (density) is directly proportional to cross-sectional area, so it seems to me this system is 6 of one, half a dozen of the other, mass-wise in copper. The article pointed out some potent disadvantages, as well -- somewhat dicey, eh? Seems really weird from the perspective of the US. Must be quite reliable because it is still being used. I was really surprised when I heard how different UK wiring is. Interestingly, NYC still has DC running to some older commercial buildings! Ended about 2 years ago. http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/11/14/off-goes-the-power-current-started-by-thomas-edison/ And, NYC's 3 phase is 208, not 220 or 240 V, like most of the rest of the country -- 208 is EXACTLY the rms voltage difference between two 120 V sine waves 120 deg out of phase, making it, I think, the "purest" type of 3 phase. The vast majority of 3 phase power in the US (that supplies 120V loads) is 208V (wye connection). New 240V (delta connection) systems are probably quite uncommon. Well, on the various ng concerned with machines all over the country, over about 10 yrs I think I'm the ONLY one to reference 208 V, via NYC. Maybe 208 dominates in big industrial cities? Even Long Island (NY) which perhaps has one of the highest concentration of "small" machine shops ( 10,000 sq ft) in the country, uses 240 V. But here's my Q: For a given voltage, what difference would the end user see in terms of a delta or wye connection? And why is 208 wye, and 240 V delta? And, is each leg of the 240 V delta 3 ph separated by equal 120 deg shifts, like the 208? I argue that it is not, that two of the phases *must* be 180 deg out of phase, as that's the only way you could get 240 from two 120 legs. The 3rd phase must be 90 deg to these two. Visavis 208/120 V systems, which is exactly consistent with 120 phase angle. I argue this, but others hotly disagree, but without really being able to tell me wye. If the above is correct, I surmise the reason is that the 208 3 ph is supplied right from the generator, whilst 240 3 ph comes off of pole transformers. -- EA -- bud-- |
#43
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1920's wiring....
bud-- wrote:
Existential Angst wrote: It's funny, we started with copper, went to tinned copper, went back to copper, slid further back to effing aluminum (goodgawd), learned from that mistake and went back to copper again. Altho power companies use aluminum in parts of their service -- and steel! As several people have said, steel is not used as a conductor. Aluminum is rather widely used inside buildings for larger sized wire. It is very common to use aluminum wire for the service wires from the utility connection to the meter to the service panel. The problems were with 15 and 20A branch circuits. Aluminum can still be used for them too, but not likely any time soon. Around here #2 aluminum is the smallest you are allowed to use in a home. Usually for the electric range. TDD |
#44
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1920's wiring....
On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 15:38:12 -0400, Existential Angst wrote:
Seems so. Although it is more hassle to set up, and I'm never quite convinced of the loading benefits given that the ring could fail yet still appear to work; at least with a radial system if a connection goes bad it's pretty obvious that it's done so. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit for the curious) That was VERY inneresting!!! Am I correct in observing that the diagram shows two "radial" connections to the ring? Yes, such spur connections seem reasonably common for things like attics, garages, and where rooms are later added on to buildings - and in that respect they're not really much different to US wiring layouts, I suppose (apart from they feed back to the ring, not always back to the service panel). It took me a while to grok the "point" of the schematic, and when I did, it left me with a very big Q: How does a ring circuit SAVE copper? ? As Bud says, you have multiple loads on the ring, and the ring's quite large, so from any given outlet the run length of the two routes back to the consumer unit (service panel) is never quite equal. The article pointed out some potent disadvantages, as well -- somewhat dicey, eh? Certainly can be. Hazards with any system, I suppose. Aside: I can never quite decide whether I prefer UK-style outlets/plugs or US ones. Remember that all plugs for UK appliances have their own fuse, rather than relying on tripping a breaker back in the service panel, and all outlets there have a live/neutral/earth connection - as a result the plugs are quite large (although not as chunky as US 240V plugs, thankfully), but the built-in fuse is nice to have. OTOH I like how compact US plugs are - particularly on things like wall warts where the pins fold away for storage. OTOH (again) US plugs can be knocked such that they expose the pins, which seems like a major safety hazard... Interestingly, NYC still has DC running to some older commercial buildings! Yeah, so I've heard. I really like big old DC stuff - shame just about all of it's gone to the junkyard these days. It appeals to the mad scientist in me ;-) But, I thought Europe was all 220, ie, two hot legs, residentially?? Yeah, I think it's all technically 230V these days actually - the UK lowered theirs slightly (as did others) whilst some other countries on 220V upped theirs a little. It's just too ingrained in my mind such that I'll always call the UK system 240V... I'm curious how much 120V is used outside of the US, actually - I'm not sure what other places in the world are using. g-dAmerica never quite gets it right, unless it comes to fleecing their public. Who needs a junta or a dictatorship when you have a Congress blowing Wall Street, using the Media as a condom?? :-) I think the US system just evolved slowly over time, and with such a high population it's hard to put the brakes on and simply change over to something else; the European picture was a bit different because it was all such a mess after WWII that there was a far more opportunity to start over with different systems and standards. Not that they always got it right, of course! (I still find black wires as being 'hot' kind of weird in the US - after doing a lot of electronics work over the years it was surprising to me when I found that the wire that makes you go ouch is the black one, not the white one ;-) Altho amazingly our vitamins are a lot more available, fwiu. Whazzup wit dat, over there??? No comment, really. Never been one to buy vitamins - although I've heard that medicine's generally a lot cheaper over there (or free, given the NHS) than it is in the US. cheers! Jules |
#45
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1920's wiring....
Existential Angst wrote:
"Jules" wrote in message news On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 23:04:48 -0700, terry wrote: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit for the curious) That was VERY inneresting!!! Am I correct in observing that the diagram shows two "radial" connections to the ring? The text talks about "unfused spurs". It took me a while to grok the "point" of the schematic, and when I did, it left me with a very big Q: How does a ring circuit SAVE copper? ? Yeah, I can see how you can use thinner gauge wire, but now you have to use twice as much of it! If you went straight out to a load and straight back there would be twice the wire. The circuit wanders around the building picking up loads as it goes. Current capacity (density) is directly proportional to cross-sectional area, so it seems to me this system is 6 of one, half a dozen of the other, mass-wise in copper. The article pointed out some potent disadvantages, as well -- somewhat dicey, eh? Seems really weird from the perspective of the US. Must be quite reliable because it is still being used. I was really surprised when I heard how different UK wiring is. Interestingly, NYC still has DC running to some older commercial buildings! Ended about 2 years ago. http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/11/14/off-goes-the-power-current-started-by-thomas-edison/ And, NYC's 3 phase is 208, not 220 or 240 V, like most of the rest of the country -- 208 is EXACTLY the rms voltage difference between two 120 V sine waves 120 deg out of phase, making it, I think, the "purest" type of 3 phase. The vast majority of 3 phase power in the US (that supplies 120V loads) is 208V (wye connection). New 240V (delta connection) systems are probably quite uncommon. -- bud-- |
#46
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1920's wiring....
Existential Angst wrote:
It's funny, we started with copper, went to tinned copper, went back to copper, slid further back to effing aluminum (goodgawd), learned from that mistake and went back to copper again. Altho power companies use aluminum in parts of their service -- and steel! As several people have said, steel is not used as a conductor. Aluminum is rather widely used inside buildings for larger sized wire. It is very common to use aluminum wire for the service wires from the utility connection to the meter to the service panel. The problems were with 15 and 20A branch circuits. Aluminum can still be used for them too, but not likely any time soon. -- bud-- |
#47
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1920's wiring....
"Jules" wrote in message
news On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 15:38:12 -0400, Existential Angst wrote: Seems so. Although it is more hassle to set up, and I'm never quite convinced of the loading benefits given that the ring could fail yet still appear to work; at least with a radial system if a connection goes bad it's pretty obvious that it's done so. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit for the curious) That was VERY inneresting!!! Am I correct in observing that the diagram shows two "radial" connections to the ring? Yes, such spur connections seem reasonably common for things like attics, garages, and where rooms are later added on to buildings - and in that respect they're not really much different to US wiring layouts, I suppose (apart from they feed back to the ring, not always back to the service panel). It took me a while to grok the "point" of the schematic, and when I did, it left me with a very big Q: How does a ring circuit SAVE copper? ? As Bud says, you have multiple loads on the ring, and the ring's quite large, so from any given outlet the run length of the two routes back to the consumer unit (service panel) is never quite equal. The article pointed out some potent disadvantages, as well -- somewhat dicey, eh? Certainly can be. Hazards with any system, I suppose. Aside: I can never quite decide whether I prefer UK-style outlets/plugs or US ones. Remember that all plugs for UK appliances have their own fuse, rather than relying on tripping a breaker back in the service panel, and all outlets there have a live/neutral/earth connection - as a result the plugs are quite large (although not as chunky as US 240V plugs, thankfully), but the built-in fuse is nice to have. OTOH I like how compact US plugs are - particularly on things like wall warts where the pins fold away for storage. OTOH (again) US plugs can be knocked such that they expose the pins, which seems like a major safety hazard... Interestingly, NYC still has DC running to some older commercial buildings! Yeah, so I've heard. I really like big old DC stuff - shame just about all of it's gone to the junkyard these days. It appeals to the mad scientist in me ;-) But, I thought Europe was all 220, ie, two hot legs, residentially?? Yeah, I think it's all technically 230V these days actually - the UK lowered theirs slightly (as did others) whilst some other countries on 220V upped theirs a little. It's just too ingrained in my mind such that I'll always call the UK system 240V... Is your 220/230 V from one hot leg to a neutral, or between two hot legs? The ring diagam would seem to indicate that it's one hot leg to a neutral. -- EA I'm curious how much 120V is used outside of the US, actually - I'm not sure what other places in the world are using. g-dAmerica never quite gets it right, unless it comes to fleecing their public. Who needs a junta or a dictatorship when you have a Congress blowing Wall Street, using the Media as a condom?? :-) I think the US system just evolved slowly over time, and with such a high population it's hard to put the brakes on and simply change over to something else; the European picture was a bit different because it was all such a mess after WWII that there was a far more opportunity to start over with different systems and standards. Not that they always got it right, of course! (I still find black wires as being 'hot' kind of weird in the US - after doing a lot of electronics work over the years it was surprising to me when I found that the wire that makes you go ouch is the black one, not the white one ;-) Altho amazingly our vitamins are a lot more available, fwiu. Whazzup wit dat, over there??? No comment, really. Never been one to buy vitamins - although I've heard that medicine's generally a lot cheaper over there (or free, given the NHS) than it is in the US. cheers! Jules |
#48
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1920's wiring....
Existential Angst wrote:
"bud--" wrote in message .. . Existential Angst wrote: It's funny, we started with copper, went to tinned copper, went back to copper, slid further back to effing aluminum (goodgawd), learned from that mistake and went back to copper again. Altho power companies use aluminum in parts of their service -- and steel! As several people have said, steel is not used as a conductor. Yeah, I just looked -- that guy wire I thought was steel indeed appears to be alum! ACSR - aluminum cable steel reinforced. The neutral is bare aluminum with one of the strands steel to support the drop. I think someone else said about the same thing. -- bud-- |
#49
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1920's wiring....
On 10/28/2009 7:01 AM Stormin Mormon spake thus:
makes sign of the pentagon Did you mean the sign of the *pentagram*, or the sign of the Pentagon? Go with Satan, my son from the dark side. Whatever. -- Who needs a junta or a dictatorship when you have a Congress blowing Wall Street, using the media as a condom? - harvested from Usenet |
#50
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1920's wiring....
Existential Angst wrote:
The vast majority of 3 phase power in the US (that supplies 120V loads) is 208V (wye connection). New 240V (delta connection) systems are probably quite uncommon. Well, on the various ng concerned with machines all over the country, over about 10 yrs I think I'm the ONLY one to reference 208 V, via NYC. Maybe 208 dominates in big industrial cities? Even Long Island (NY) which perhaps has one of the highest concentration of "small" machine shops ( 10,000 sq ft) in the country, uses 240 V. 120/208V dominates in general. Machine shops may want 240V because machines may be commonly made for 240V. That may be historical - it may be how early machines were made and was continued for compatibility with older equipment. I have seen some machine tools in use that probably predate Columbus. But here's my Q: For a given voltage, what difference would the end user see in terms of a delta or wye connection? And why is 208 wye, and 240 V delta? 208V has 3 - 120V transformers. One endpoint of each transformer is connected together to form a "neutral". You have 120V from each of the phase conductors to the neutral. That is a major advantage when you are supplying 120V loads (compare to 240V delta). The voltage between phase conductors is 208V. A 3-phase motor would be 208V. A diagram of the transformer connections looks like a Y-wye (or star). The major power distribution in a large building is likely 277/480V wye. The 3 transformers are 277V with one end connected to a common neutral. The voltage between phase conductors is 480V. Higher voltage means less copper is used in wiring. A lot fluorescent (and non-incandescent) lightning is 277V .For motors 480V 3-phase is nice. Stepdown transformers to 120/208V wye are installed in electrical rooms where necessary. [You could also get 240V delta.] A 240V delta system starts out with a 120/240 transformer like is used for a residential service. The center tap is the neutral, just like with a residential service. For the 3-phase, 2 transformers are added, one end of each connected to the ends of the original transformer and the other end connected together to be the 3 phase "high leg". A diagram of the transformer connections looks like a triangle or delta. The voltage from the high leg to neutral is 208V. There may only be 2 transformers (open delta). I suspect this system came from original 120/240V single phase systems where some 3-phase load had to be added. You can add a transformer, which can be much smaller than the original one (depending on the 3 phase load). And there used to be a "delta breaker" (may still exist) which I believe allowed 3 phase to be kludged into original single phase services. I suspect this is how 3 phase came to many machine shops. You have 120V from only 2 phases to the neutral and it is much harder to "balance" the current in the 3 legs. If not balanced, the voltages between phases may be different which increases motor heating. If there are 3 transformers imbalance also causes "circulating" currents. And, is each leg of the 240 V delta 3 ph separated by equal 120 deg shifts, like the 208? Yup. I argue that it is not, that two of the phases *must* be 180 deg out of phase, as that's the only way you could get 240 from two 120 legs. The 3rd phase must be 90 deg to these two. Not how delta works. There did used to be 2-phase power (90 degrees). Niagra, which was probably the first large hydro generation, was originally 2-phase. Visavis 208/120 V systems, which is exactly consistent with 120 phase angle. I argue this, but others hotly disagree, but without really being able to tell me wye. If the above is correct, I surmise the reason is that the 208 3 ph is supplied right from the generator, whilst 240 3 ph comes off of pole transformers. Nope. You could look at machine shops and see if there are only 2 transformers (open delta) and one is much smaller (most of the load is single phase). For delta, one of the transformers has a 3rd connection (neutral). -- bud-- |
#51
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1920's wiring....
Jules wrote:
On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 15:38:12 -0400, Existential Angst wrote: Seems so. Although it is more hassle to set up, and I'm never quite convinced of the loading benefits given that the ring could fail yet still appear to work; at least with a radial system if a connection goes bad it's pretty obvious that it's done so. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit for the curious) That was VERY inneresting!!! Am I correct in observing that the diagram shows two "radial" connections to the ring? Yes, such spur connections seem reasonably common for things like attics, garages, and where rooms are later added on to buildings - and in that respect they're not really much different to US wiring layouts, I suppose (apart from they feed back to the ring, not always back to the service panel). A question is whether the spur is ring-wire-size or 'full-wire-size'. The Wiki article sounds like it is ring-wire-size with limitation on the number of outlets or possible fuses. Aside: I can never quite decide whether I prefer UK-style outlets/plugs or US ones. Remember that all plugs for UK appliances have their own fuse, rather than relying on tripping a breaker back in the service panel, and all outlets there have a live/neutral/earth connection - as a result the plugs are quite large (although not as chunky as US 240V plugs, thankfully), but the built-in fuse is nice to have. I assume a major purpose of the fuse is that you are connecting a cord with rather limited current rating to a 30/32A ring circuit. OTOH I like how compact US plugs are - particularly on things like wall warts where the pins fold away for storage. OTOH (again) US plugs can be knocked such that they expose the pins, which seems like a major safety hazard... But, I thought Europe was all 220, ie, two hot legs, residentially?? Yeah, I think it's all technically 230V these days actually - the UK lowered theirs slightly (as did others) whilst some other countries on 220V upped theirs a little. It's just too ingrained in my mind such that I'll always call the UK system 240V... All 3-phase at utility end, from what I have read, with hot and neutral supplied. You may get 2 of the phases. And in some countries I have read you get all 3 phases. :-) I think the US system just evolved slowly over time, and with such a high population it's hard to put the brakes on and simply change over to something else; the European picture was a bit different because it was all such a mess after WWII that there was a far more opportunity to start over with different systems and standards. Not that they always got it right, of course! The UK, in particular, does seem to be a much more 'engineered' system. Not sure how much the 'cowboy' mentality in the US would allow that. Receptacle configurations have changed even since WWII if I read the Wiki article right. Surprising how much even the names of parts are different from this side the pond (like "consumer unit" in the Wiki article). -- bud-- |
#52
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1920's wiring....
On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 13:26:40 -0600, bud-- wrote:
A question is whether the spur is ring-wire-size or 'full-wire-size'. The Wiki article sounds like it is ring-wire-size with limitation on the number of outlets or possible fuses. Yeah, normally ring-wire-size from installations I've seen, so some care has to be taken when adding new services (although I suppose that's true of any type of electrical system) Aside: I can never quite decide whether I prefer UK-style outlets/plugs or US ones. Remember that all plugs for UK appliances have their own fuse, rather than relying on tripping a breaker back in the service panel, and all outlets there have a live/neutral/earth connection - as a result the plugs are quite large (although not as chunky as US 240V plugs, thankfully), but the built-in fuse is nice to have. I assume a major purpose of the fuse is that you are connecting a cord with rather limited current rating to a 30/32A ring circuit. Well, not just the cord, but the device itself too; it's nice if the device doesn't have to wait for the main ring fuse to blow (or breaker to trip) if there's a fault. Fuses in plugs were commonly 3A, 5A or 13A - although ISTR seeing 2A before, and in reality most things end up using 13A with some smaller stuff (lamps etc.) using 3A. OTOH I like how compact US plugs are - particularly on things like wall warts where the pins fold away for storage. OTOH (again) US plugs can be knocked such that they expose the pins, which seems like a major safety hazard... But, I thought Europe was all 220, ie, two hot legs, residentially?? Yeah, I think it's all technically 230V these days actually - the UK lowered theirs slightly (as did others) whilst some other countries on 220V upped theirs a little. It's just too ingrained in my mind such that I'll always call the UK system 240V... All 3-phase at utility end, from what I have read, with hot and neutral supplied. You may get 2 of the phases. And in some countries I have read you get all 3 phases. Yes, some larger houses can end up with a couple of phases (in the UK). Typically they're just a single phase, though. Not sure what the rest of Europe's like. The UK, in particular, does seem to be a much more 'engineered' system. Not sure how much the 'cowboy' mentality in the US would allow that. Receptacle configurations have changed even since WWII if I read the Wiki article right. Yeah, there have been some changes to outlet designs, plugs and light fittings - plus of course at some point fuse boxes started disappearing and were replaced by breakers. Surprising how much even the names of parts are different from this side the pond (like "consumer unit" in the Wiki article). Uh huh. Cord vs. cable, outlet vs. socket etc... although having done the move from one country to another there's a lot of commonality, too. Enough that the US system more or less makes sense to me now ;-) Oh, I found a world map of the various voltages/frequencies in use which may be of interest: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wo...6Frequency.png cheers Jules |
#53
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1920's wiring....
On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 13:32:44 -0400, Existential Angst wrote:
Yeah, I think it's all technically 230V these days actually - the UK lowered theirs slightly (as did others) whilst some other countries on 220V upped theirs a little. It's just too ingrained in my mind such that I'll always call the UK system 240V... Is your 220/230 V from one hot leg to a neutral, or between two hot legs? The ring diagam would seem to indicate that it's one hot leg to a neutral. Yep, 'live' gives 240V (well, technically 230V) with respect to the neutral, rather than there being two 'hots' of 120V like the US system. Power over there is at 50Hz too rather than 60, which can have an impact on things which derive timing from the power input (or on things with inductive components - if I remember right the problem's in bringing things designed for a 60Hz environment into a 50Hz one as there can be overheating issues) cheers Jules |
#54
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1920's wiring....
wrote in message ... On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 11:52:26 -0600, bud-- wrote: Existential Angst wrote: "bud--" wrote in message .. . Existential Angst wrote: It's funny, we started with copper, went to tinned copper, went back to copper, slid further back to effing aluminum (goodgawd), learned from that mistake and went back to copper again. Altho power companies use aluminum in parts of their service -- and steel! As several people have said, steel is not used as a conductor. Yeah, I just looked -- that guy wire I thought was steel indeed appears to be alum! ACSR - aluminum cable steel reinforced. The neutral is bare aluminum with one of the strands steel to support the drop. I think someone else said about the same thing. Most domestic service drops I have seen are just AAC, no steel core. Everyone I've ever seen used by NYSEG and ConEd are aluminum with a steel core Phelps Dodge has a pretty good web site talking about the various service drop cables. |
#55
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1920's wiring....
On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 22:18:09 -0500, Steve Barker
wrote: wrote: On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 19:50:31 -0500, Steve Barker wrote: wrote: Not to mention we'd have to use lead-free solder today if we were soldering joints - and that is a REAL PITA. Why? I thought the lead free scam was only on plumbing. Nope - it's invaded electronics too - Most computers, TVs etc in the last 5 years are lead free - and a royal P.I.T.A. to repair because of it who repairs electronics? LOL! I still do, when parts are available. Getting hard to buy non surface mount components as simple as capacitors though. |
#56
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1920's wiring....
On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 22:38:03 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote: wrote: On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 19:50:31 -0500, Steve Barker wrote: wrote: Not to mention we'd have to use lead-free solder today if we were soldering joints - and that is a REAL PITA. Why? I thought the lead free scam was only on plumbing. Nope - it's invaded electronics too - Most computers, TVs etc in the last 5 years are lead free - and a royal P.I.T.A. to repair because of it I'm glad I have my roll of Kestor five core solder. That particular roll I bought back in the 70's and it always works on anything electronic. TDD I've got a "loifetime supply" of about 8 500g rolls. |
#58
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1920's wiring....
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#59
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1920's wiring....
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