Hi,

Here in England, I have a Beko "DE 2541 FX" slimline dishwasher
that stopped working properly... just before Christmas.

When I press the button to start the cycle, the machine drains and
then fills as normal and then -- instead of kicking into that rhythmic
swishing sound -- it just sits there in dead silence. After 15 minutes
it might fill again, and if left might fill yet again after another
while. But it never kicks into wash mode. It does this even on the
simple no-heat, pre-wash setting.

I checked the heater, it looks perfectly fine and is not open-circuit.

I checked the thermistor, fine, it correctly changes resistance
when it's in hot water.

Everything looks pretty much perfect, after all it's only three
years old.

The main circulation pump looks pristine, and so does its
capacitor. But when I measured with a multi-meter across the terminals
of the pump (insulated crocodile clips!), I discovered that at no time
does it receive any voltage.

I decided to replace the controller card (only £30) and today I
find it still has exactly the same problem with the new controller
installed. Argh!

So what is the real culprit? Can anyone help? I know there is a
circulation sensor, a thermistor, and various door safety and overfill
doodads but I am not sure what exactly would cause this particular problem.

I would be grateful for anyone's experience and expertise: I don't
want to be defeated by this thing!

With many thanks,

Sandy


P.S. - I have obtained the circuit diagram of my Beko dishwasher, the
logic of which was designed by the Turkish company 'Arcelik'. (I don't
understand it very well, chiefly because the diagram's labels got
scrambled at some stage. And some of the symbols I don't immediately
recognize, or they're just "circles".) I would be most grateful if
someone took an informed guess as to what the components must be. I
could then relate the diagram to my actual dishwasher's control board,
components, wiring and mechanisms. Anyway, I've scanned and uploaded
the diagram he

http://i49.tinypic.com/28r1thw.jpg

Many thanks again.

I assume the unit uses an electronic controller, and not an
electromechanical one. If it /is/ the latter, check the timer switch.

If it's the former, it could just be a bad wire or connection between the
controller and the pump.

Usenet Inscribed thus:

Hi,

Here in England, I have a Beko "DE 2541 FX" slimline dishwasher
that stopped working properly... just before Christmas.

When I press the button to start the cycle, the machine drains
and
then fills as normal and then -- instead of kicking into that rhythmic
swishing sound -- it just sits there in dead silence. After 15
minutes it might fill again, and if left might fill yet again after
another
while. But it never kicks into wash mode. It does this even on the
simple no-heat, pre-wash setting.

I checked the heater, it looks perfectly fine and is not
open-circuit.

I checked the thermistor, fine, it correctly changes resistance
when it's in hot water.

Everything looks pretty much perfect, after all it's only three
years old.

The main circulation pump looks pristine, and so does its
capacitor. But when I measured with a multi-meter across the
terminals of the pump (insulated crocodile clips!), I discovered that
at no time does it receive any voltage.

I decided to replace the controller card (only £30) and today I
find it still has exactly the same problem with the new controller
installed. Argh!

So what is the real culprit? Can anyone help? I know there is a
circulation sensor, a thermistor, and various door safety and overfill
doodads but I am not sure what exactly would cause this particular
problem.

I would be grateful for anyone's experience and expertise: I
don't
want to be defeated by this thing!

With many thanks,

Sandy


P.S. - I have obtained the circuit diagram of my Beko dishwasher, the
logic of which was designed by the Turkish company 'Arcelik'. (I
don't understand it very well, chiefly because the diagram's labels
got
scrambled at some stage. And some of the symbols I don't immediately
recognize, or they're just "circles".) I would be most grateful if
someone took an informed guess as to what the components must be. I
could then relate the diagram to my actual dishwasher's control board,
components, wiring and mechanisms. Anyway, I've scanned and uploaded
the diagram he

http://i49.tinypic.com/28r1thw.jpg

Many thanks again.

Find & check switch 6.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

Usenet wrote:
Baron wrote:

P.S. - I have obtained the circuit diagram of my Beko dishwasher, the
logic of which was designed by the Turkish company 'Arcelik'. (I
don't understand it very well, chiefly because the diagram's labels
got
scrambled at some stage. And some of the symbols I don't immediately
recognize, or they're just "circles".) I would be most grateful if
someone took an informed guess as to what the components must be. I
could then relate the diagram to my actual dishwasher's control board,
components, wiring and mechanisms. Anyway, I've scanned and uploaded
the diagram he

http://i49.tinypic.com/28r1thw.jpg

Many thanks again.

Find & check switch 6.

Not quite sure which 6 you mean, from this unix-like reply! Surely
not the double switch labelled 06 over on the far left. You must mean
the switchy hatty little symbol at the lower left of the diagram
labelled '6. Are you thinking, like me, that this is this the
anti-flood cutoff device? There's a round grey plastic thingy located
on the bottom plate of my machine, and has a round white polystyrene
float visible in this plastic device. A bit like an thick oversized
communion wafer, if anyone remembers such things. The flood sensor
seemed OK to me, dry too.


My guess is that what you describe above is a float switch and is the
"6" symbol in the next to the bottom line at the left side (as you said
above). A possible problem is that it is not closing and the motor won't
run because the circuit does not think there is enough water. Might be
there is not enough water, or the float switch has a problem. My guess
is that is what "check switch 6" is about. [My dishwasher fills partly
on a time cycle, and a malfunctioning pressure reducer prevented a
complete fill.]

The few dishwashers in the US that I have played with have a single pump
motor (probably on pin 2 as you guess). The motor is used for drain also
- the water is pumped out. That does not seem to be consistent with your
meter measurement. If there is a second motor my guess is it is pin 13 -
could be a fan for drying.

My guess is that the rectangles with diagonal slashes (like pin 3,4,5)
are solenoids such as might be attached to fill or drain valves (which
might be pins 3,5).

Pins 12 & 16 might be switches, like a door-open switch.

If pin 11 has a heater, the lower symbol may be a temperature limit switch.

Tracing wires should tell you what the symbols are.

You might want to try newsgroup uk.d-i-y

--
bud--

Baron wrote:

P.S. - I have obtained the circuit diagram of my Beko dishwasher, the
logic of which was designed by the Turkish company 'Arcelik'. (I
don't understand it very well, chiefly because the diagram's labels
got
scrambled at some stage. And some of the symbols I don't immediately
recognize, or they're just "circles".) I would be most grateful if
someone took an informed guess as to what the components must be. I
could then relate the diagram to my actual dishwasher's control board,
components, wiring and mechanisms. Anyway, I've scanned and uploaded
the diagram he

http://i49.tinypic.com/28r1thw.jpg

Many thanks again.

Find & check switch 6.

Not quite sure which 6 you mean, from this unix-like reply! Surely
not the double switch labelled 06 over on the far left. You must mean
the switchy hatty little symbol at the lower left of the diagram
labelled '6. Are you thinking, like me, that this is this the
anti-flood cutoff device? There's a round grey plastic thingy located
on the bottom plate of my machine, and has a round white polystyrene
float visible in this plastic device. A bit like an thick oversized
communion wafer, if anyone remembers such things. The flood sensor
seemed OK to me, dry too.

To complete my uploading of the timer control circuit diagram for
the Beko "DE 2541 FX" slimline dishwasher, here's what I guess are the
components attached to the PCB pins (along the top of the diagram) taken
from an earlier post of mine. Counting the pins from left to right,
here's what I *think* is attached to each:

pin 1 : main power button switch
pin 2 : motor with capacitor? dunno.
pin 3 : pump motor
pin 4 : motor (without pump?? a "load"?)
pin 5 : pump motor
pins 8-9 : God knows what
pin 11 : fuse, water-heater, normally-on microswitch
pin 12 : a normally-off safety microswitch (?)
pins 13-14: ??? (mystery circle!)
pins 15-16: a normally-off safety microswitch (?)
pins 17-18: ??? (can't find this symbol anywhere!)
pins 19-21: Thermistor circuit

Mysteries:
At the low left of the diagram, what is the symbol marked '6?
In the middle of the diagram, is the thing labeled &2 a two way switch?

I think if I knew these things, it would help to connect (in my
understanding) the diagram and the actual wires and devices I see dotted
around the machine. I would be very grateful for any informed guesses
and suggestions from people.

Thanks for everyone's replies. I'm very encouraged by the
quick and sure response. Encouraged enough to put on my boiler suit and
disconnect the damn machine again, and go checking for continuity and
**** until I get the damn thing working again. I will follow up when I
do. It's always gratifying to come across such posts.

Many thanks again everyone,

Sandy

On Jan 19, 8:34*am, Usenet wrote:
Baron wrote:
P.S. - I have obtained the circuit diagram of my Beko dishwasher, the
logic of which was designed by the Turkish company 'Arcelik'. *(I
don't understand it very well, chiefly because the diagram's labels
got
scrambled at some stage. *And some of the symbols I don't immediately
recognize, or they're just "circles".) *I would be most grateful if
someone took an informed guess as to what the components must be. *I
could then relate the diagram to my actual dishwasher's control board,
components, wiring and mechanisms. *Anyway, I've scanned and uploaded
the diagram he

* * * * *http://i49.tinypic.com/28r1thw.jpg

Many thanks again.

Find & check switch 6.

* * *Not quite sure which 6 you mean, from this unix-like reply! *Surely
not the double switch labelled 06 over on the far left. *You must mean
the switchy hatty little symbol at the lower left of the diagram
labelled '6. *Are you thinking, like me, that this is this the
anti-flood cutoff device? *There's a round grey plastic thingy located
on the bottom plate of my machine, and has a round white polystyrene
float visible in this plastic device. *A bit like an thick oversized
communion wafer, if anyone remembers such things. *The flood sensor
seemed OK to me, dry too.

* * *To complete my uploading of the timer control circuit diagram for
the Beko "DE 2541 FX" slimline dishwasher, here's what I guess are the
components attached to the PCB pins (along the top of the diagram) taken
from an earlier post of mine. *Counting the pins from left to right,
here's what I *think* is attached to each:

pin *1 * *: main power button switch
pin *2 * *: motor with capacitor? dunno.
pin *3 * *: pump motor
pin *4 * *: motor (without pump?? a "load"?)
pin *5 * *: pump motor
pins 8-9 *: God knows what
pin *11 * : fuse, water-heater, normally-on microswitch
pin *12 * : a normally-off safety microswitch (?)
pins 13-14: ??? (mystery circle!)
pins 15-16: a normally-off safety microswitch (?)
pins 17-18: ??? (can't find this symbol anywhere!)
pins 19-21: Thermistor circuit

Mysteries:
At the low left of the diagram, what is the symbol marked '6?
In the middle of the diagram, is the thing labeled &2 a two way switch?

I think if I knew these things, it would help to connect (in my
understanding) the diagram and the actual wires and devices I see dotted
around the machine. *I would be very grateful for any informed guesses
and suggestions from people.

* * *Thanks for everyone's replies. *I'm very encouraged by the
quick and sure response. *Encouraged enough to put on my boiler suit and
disconnect the damn machine again, and go checking for continuity and
**** until I get the damn thing working again. *I will follow up when I
do. *It's always gratifying to come across such posts.

Many thanks again everyone,

Sandy- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Have you contacted whomever installed/sold/ever serviced the
dishwasher? You are informed enough to be able to hold an intelligent
discussion with someone familiar with the product and maybe they could
give you some tips on your particular model.

Usenet Inscribed thus:

Baron wrote:

P.S. - I have obtained the circuit diagram of my Beko dishwasher,
the
logic of which was designed by the Turkish company 'Arcelik'. (I
don't understand it very well, chiefly because the diagram's labels
got
scrambled at some stage. And some of the symbols I don't
immediately
recognize, or they're just "circles".) I would be most grateful if
someone took an informed guess as to what the components must be. I
could then relate the diagram to my actual dishwasher's control
board,
components, wiring and mechanisms. Anyway, I've scanned and
uploaded the diagram he

http://i49.tinypic.com/28r1thw.jpg

Many thanks again.

Find & check switch 6.

Not quite sure which 6 you mean, from this unix-like reply!
Surely
not the double switch labelled 06 over on the far left. You must mean
the switchy hatty little symbol at the lower left of the diagram
labelled '6.

Yes ! Thats the one.

Are you thinking, like me, that this is this the
anti-flood cutoff device? There's a round grey plastic thingy located
on the bottom plate of my machine, and has a round white polystyrene
float visible in this plastic device. A bit like an thick oversized
communion wafer, if anyone remembers such things. The flood sensor
seemed OK to me, dry too.

If that switch is OC the main motor will not run. The other side is via
the timer. 6th contact from left marked (1)

There is also a cutout marked 7/ that should be checked. It may be a
manual reset.

To complete my uploading of the timer control circuit diagram for
the Beko "DE 2541 FX" slimline dishwasher, here's what I guess are the
components attached to the PCB pins (along the top of the diagram)
taken
from an earlier post of mine. Counting the pins from left to right,
here's what I *think* is attached to each:

pin 1 : main power button switch
pin 2 : motor with capacitor? dunno.
pin 3 : pump motor
pin 4 : motor (without pump?? a "load"?)
pin 5 : pump motor
pins 8-9 : God knows what
pin 11 : fuse, water-heater, normally-on microswitch
pin 12 : a normally-off safety microswitch (?)
pins 13-14: ??? (mystery circle!)
pins 15-16: a normally-off safety microswitch (?)
pins 17-18: ??? (can't find this symbol anywhere!)
pins 19-21: Thermistor circuit

Mysteries:
At the low left of the diagram, what is the symbol marked '6?
In the middle of the diagram, is the thing labeled &2 a two way
switch?

I think if I knew these things, it would help to connect (in my
understanding) the diagram and the actual wires and devices I see
dotted
around the machine. I would be very grateful for any informed guesses
and suggestions from people.

Thanks for everyone's replies. I'm very encouraged by the
quick and sure response. Encouraged enough to put on my boiler suit
and disconnect the damn machine again, and go checking for continuity
and
**** until I get the damn thing working again. I will follow up when
I
do. It's always gratifying to come across such posts.

Many thanks again everyone,

Sandy

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

Hi!

I think you will find that you have a relay in your dishwasher with
burnt contacts. This will prevent the pump from ever getting power. If
you have an electronic set of controls, there ought to be some relays
somewhere.

Since you mentioned that replacing the controller board did not
resolve the problem, I would say that there is a separate power
control and distribution unit elsewhere in the unit. You should locate
this part and see what's inside or on it.

It's less likely but possible that there are fuses protecting each
major circuit in the unit. One of these may have blown. Nuisance fuse
blowing is possible but unlikely. If there is a fuse and it blew,
there is likely a fault in the circuit.

If you do end up finding that a burnt relay is the problem, you can
sometimes repair it by carefully levering the cover off the relay and
cleaning the burned contacts. Unfortunately, opening relays can
involve violence, and sometimes you just can't do it without
destroying the relay itself.

The wiring in your dishwasher should be pretty straightforward (but
this will vary depending upon how many functions it has). It should be
possible to trace out each wire and determine what it does.

William

Baron wrote:
Usenet Inscribed thus:
I've scanned and uploaded the diagram he
http://i49.tinypic.com/28r1thw.jpg
Find & check switch 6.
If that switch is OC the main motor will not run. The other side is via
the timer. 6th contact from left marked (1)

There is also a cutout marked 7/ that should be checked. It may be a
manual reset.

Just to get things straight: what kind of switch is this switch '6?
It's normally closed, yes? Do you think -- by it's position in the
diagram -- it's the flood protection switch?

Where would cutout 7/ be, physically? Is it on the pump itself?

Switch '6 also controls the things immediately to the right of the
main circulation pump, labelled :9, '5, and 59. These look like
solenoid-type thingies, the ones with "triangle propellers" look maybe
like valves. Are they solenoid type things? The circle labelled '30
I'm pretty sure is the drain pump (in Europe apparently it's usual to
have two separate pumps). This pump still works.

What is your guess for the thing labelled )0 off contact 13 from
the left? It must be acting as some kind of sensor, I'm thinking, by
it's position on the right of the diagram.

I've checked for continuity and there's no breaks in the wires that
I can find. However, during operation of a dishwasher cycle, no voltage
is ever given (by the brand new replacement controller!) to the main
circulation pump, as measured with a multi-meter. Therefore -- it looks
to me -- like the controller is expecting a signal to proceed, which it
never receives.

What is the symbol marked 17&, over towards the right? It looks a
bit like a Christmas cracker, so I'm hoping it's some fusey cut-out
thing. I would dearly love to know its meaning.

Having had a good look at the innards of my dishwasher, I'm not
intimidated by it anymore. They're really very straightforward things.
I can feel it's not far from working. It's really frustrating right
now, but I now feel I *can* get it working again.

... and of course, if it stops me having to wash up by hand every
day, that would be WONDERFUL!!!

Regards,

Sandy

William R. Walsh wrote:

I think you will find that you have a relay in your dishwasher with
burnt contacts. This will prevent the pump from ever getting power. If
you have an electronic set of controls, there ought to be some relays
somewhere.

Since you mentioned that replacing the controller board did not
resolve the problem, I would say that there is a separate power
control and distribution unit elsewhere in the unit. You should locate
this part and see what's inside or on it.

It's less likely but possible that there are fuses protecting each
major circuit in the unit. One of these may have blown. Nuisance fuse
blowing is possible but unlikely. If there is a fuse and it blew,
there is likely a fault in the circuit.

If you do end up finding that a burnt relay is the problem, you can
sometimes repair it by carefully levering the cover off the relay and
cleaning the burned contacts. Unfortunately, opening relays can
involve violence, and sometimes you just can't do it without
destroying the relay itself.

The wiring in your dishwasher should be pretty straightforward (but
this will vary depending upon how many functions it has). It should be
possible to trace out each wire and determine what it does.

I'm pretty sure my dishwasher has just the one PCB. I've just
spent the evening with the dishwasher on its side, checking for
continuity and tracing the wiring, and locating and inspecting water
tubes and devices. And of course, drinking cups of tea and eating
biscuits (cookies?). No wires broken, alas so the mystery is still at
large. I checked the dishwasher's operation again -- the controller
definitely never sends voltage to the main pump. But every 5 minutes or
so it fills a little bit more, I watched it do this for 40 minutes, and
then got fed up and had to press the button to make it drain and stop
the cycle.

By the way, I've uploaded the manufacturer's circuit diagram for my
dishwasher at: http://i49.tinypic.com/28r1thw.jpg

Also, here's a picture of the one and only PCB in my Beko "DE 2541
FX" slimline dishwasher, at: http://i49.tinypic.com/30bn60i.jpg

(...Are the black and blue blocks on the left, in lieu of the relays?)

But it is very interesting what you said about burnt relays...

...On the day the dishwasher went wonky, that morning we had just
had our electricity reconnected to the mains grid after a week of being
without electricity. (They were logging nearby in the forest.) When
our supply was reconnected, actually *three* things went wrong that day.

1) A long-life bulb stopped working.

2) My Bosch jigsaw stopped working.

3) The dishwasher worked in an odd way for several "clearing the
backlog" washes -- there were longer and longer pauses between the
filling/heating, and waiting for the swishing sound of dishes being
cleaned. On the last successful go, the swishing suddenly started an
hour after starting a run. (It startled me, in fact!)

After three things had independently gone wrong, I measured the
voltage of the mains (supplied from step-down transformer from overhead
wires that snakes across our forest). The normal domestic mains voltage
in England is 230-240 volts AC. That afternoon ours read 255 volts,
which slowly came down after a several days to 240, and then back down
to it's usual 235-ish.

While tinkering this evening with the dishwasher, I was thinking
that (apart from the possibility of blown fuses/relays) it had to be
EITHER a bad sensor -- an input to the timer/controller -- that is not
performing, OR that a process is not happening (because of a solenoid
etc.) that ultimately leads to an undesirable reading from a sensor.
That's to say "If no voltage ever gets sent to the motor by the brand
new replacement controller, then the fault is because the dishwasher
programme must be waiting for an OK signal from somewhere in the system
that never arrives."

This happens on the simple 15 minute "pre-wash" setting (no heating
of the water is involved, so that clears Mr. Thermostat from the list of
suspects).

Because of the unusual voltages on the day the dishwasher died, I
think it most very probably must be a high-voltage actuator (a solenoid
or a fuse) that's gone, and probably not a low-voltage sensor.

I would very much appreciate anything you have to say.

Regards,

Sandy

On Jan 20, 9:00*pm, Usenet wrote:
William R. Walsh wrote:
I think you will find that you have a relay in your dishwasher with
burnt contacts. This will prevent the pump from ever getting power. If
you have an electronic set of controls, there ought to be some relays
somewhere.

Since you mentioned that replacing the controller board did not
resolve the problem, I would say that there is a separate power
control and distribution unit elsewhere in the unit. You should locate
this part and see what's inside or on it.

It's less likely but possible that there are fuses protecting each
major circuit in the unit. One of these may have blown. Nuisance fuse
blowing is possible but unlikely. If there is a fuse and it blew,
there is likely a fault in the circuit.

If you do end up finding that a burnt relay is the problem, you can
sometimes repair it by carefully levering the cover off the relay and
cleaning the burned contacts. Unfortunately, opening relays can
involve violence, and sometimes you just can't do it without
destroying the relay itself.

The wiring in your dishwasher should be pretty straightforward (but
this will vary depending upon how many functions it has). It should be
possible to trace out each wire and determine what it does.

* * *I'm pretty sure my dishwasher has just the one PCB. *I've just
spent the evening with the dishwasher on its side, checking for
continuity and tracing the wiring, and locating and inspecting water
tubes and devices. *And of course, drinking cups of tea and eating
biscuits (cookies?). *No wires broken, alas so the mystery is still at
large. *I checked the dishwasher's operation again -- the controller
definitely never sends voltage to the main pump. *But every 5 minutes or
so it fills a little bit more, I watched it do this for 40 minutes, and
then got fed up and had to press the button to make it drain and stop
the cycle.

* * *By the way, I've uploaded the manufacturer's circuit diagram for my
dishwasher at:http://i49.tinypic.com/28r1thw.jpg

* * *Also, here's a picture of the one and only PCB in my Beko "DE 2541
FX" slimline dishwasher, at:http://i49.tinypic.com/30bn60i.jpg

* * *(...Are the black and blue blocks on the left, in lieu of the relays?)

* * *But it is very interesting what you said about burnt relays...

* * *...On the day the dishwasher went wonky, that morning we had just
had our electricity reconnected to the mains grid after a week of being
without electricity. *(They were logging nearby in the forest.) *When
our supply was reconnected, actually *three* things went wrong that day.

1) *A long-life bulb stopped working.

2) *My Bosch jigsaw stopped working.

3) *The dishwasher worked in an odd way for several "clearing the
backlog" washes -- there were longer and longer pauses between the
filling/heating, and waiting for the swishing sound of dishes being
cleaned. *On the last successful go, the swishing suddenly started an
hour after starting a run. *(It startled me, in fact!)

* * *After three things had independently gone wrong, I measured the
voltage of the mains (supplied from step-down transformer from overhead
wires that snakes across our forest). *The normal domestic mains voltage
in England is 230-240 volts AC. *That afternoon ours read 255 volts,
which slowly came down after a several days to 240, and then back down
to it's usual 235-ish.

* * *While tinkering this evening with the dishwasher, I was thinking
that (apart from the possibility of blown fuses/relays) it had to be
EITHER a bad sensor -- an input to the timer/controller -- that is not
performing, OR that a process is not happening (because of a solenoid
etc.) that ultimately leads to an undesirable reading from a sensor.
That's to say "If no voltage ever gets sent to the motor by the brand
new replacement controller, then the fault is because the dishwasher
programme must be waiting for an OK signal from somewhere in the system
that never arrives."

* * *This happens on the simple 15 minute "pre-wash" setting (no heating
of the water is involved, so that clears Mr. Thermostat from the list of
suspects).

* * *Because of the unusual voltages on the day the dishwasher died, I
think it most very probably must be a high-voltage actuator (a solenoid
or a fuse) that's gone, and probably not a low-voltage sensor.

* * *I would very much appreciate anything you have to say.

Regards,

Sandy- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It could well be that the over-voltage has fried some of the
electronics. That's why I always (#times in 45 years) get a
dishwasher with a mechanical timer. NOt as many choices, but a LOT
less that can go wrong.

Usenet Inscribed thus:

Baron wrote:
Usenet Inscribed thus:
I've scanned and uploaded the diagram he
http://i49.tinypic.com/28r1thw.jpg
Find & check switch 6.
If that switch is OC the main motor will not run. The other side is
via the timer. 6th contact from left marked (1)

There is also a cutout marked 7/ that should be checked. It may be
a manual reset.

Just to get things straight: what kind of switch is this switch '6?
It's normally closed, yes? Do you think -- by it's position in the
diagram -- it's the flood protection switch?

Yes its normally closed.

Where would cutout 7/ be, physically? Is it on the pump itself?

Yes, probably, since its a thermal cutout. Looking at the diagram its
shown directly above the motor. Its normally closed.

Switch '6 also controls the things immediately to the right of the
main circulation pump, labelled :9, '5, and 59. These look like
solenoid-type thingies, the ones with "triangle propellers" look maybe
like valves. Are they solenoid type things?

9 & 59 are probably solenoid water valves. I'm not at all sure what 5
is.

The circle labelled '30
I'm pretty sure is the drain pump (in Europe apparently it's usual to
have two separate pumps). This pump still works.

It that case it rules out switch 6. Since if 6 was open the pump
wouldn't run.

What is your guess for the thing labelled )0 off contact 13 from
the left? It must be acting as some kind of sensor, I'm thinking, by
it's position on the right of the diagram.

I've checked for continuity and there's no breaks in the wires that
I can find. However, during operation of a dishwasher cycle, no
voltage is ever given (by the brand new replacement controller!) to
the main circulation pump, as measured with a multi-meter.
Therefore -- it looks to me -- like the controller is expecting a
signal to proceed, which it never receives.

One of those, possibly the one marked )0 is the timer drive motor.
366 could be the water level sensor.

What is the symbol marked 17&, over towards the right? It looks a
bit like a Christmas cracker, so I'm hoping it's some fusey cut-out
thing. I would dearly love to know its meaning.

I think +)7 is the heater and 17& the soap dispenser.

Having had a good look at the innards of my dishwasher, I'm not
intimidated by it anymore. They're really very straightforward
things.
I can feel it's not far from working. It's really frustrating right
now, but I now feel I *can* get it working again.

... and of course, if it stops me having to wash up by hand every
day, that would be WONDERFUL!!!

Regards,

Sandy

The basic operation is that of a rotary switch driven by a motor. Once
a program has been chosen, the switch drive motor normally runs
continuously. A solenoid is often used to cause the switch drive motor
to step the rotary switch on to the next position depending upon some
criteria being met. This could be :- Fill level, Temperature, Time.
Usually the fill level has to be reached and water shut off before the
main pump motor is allowed to start.

Often the main pump motor and heater are not allowed to be both switched
on at the same time. Then when water temperature has been reached the
soap dispenser is activated. Then a timed wash cycle commences. Water
is drained. Refilled and rinse aid injected and a further wash cycle
starts.

This is followed by another heat cycle designed to create a high
temperature, and short wash before fully emptying. This is designed to
dry the contents and leave a polish.

All the above will vary depending upon the chosen program and is not any
more than a general description of operation. Being on the spot and
able to see what wire goes to which component is a great
advantage. :-)

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

Sandy,

I'm in the UK !

Drop me an Email.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

On Jan 21, 2:53*pm, Baron wrote:
Sandy,

I'm in the UK !

Drop me an Email.

--
Best Regards:
* * * * * * * * * * *Baron.

Gee - Your English is so good you almost sound AmericanG.

hr(bob) Inscribed thus:

On Jan 21, 2:53Â*pm, Baron wrote:
Sandy,

I'm in the UK !

Drop me an Email.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

Gee - Your English is so good you almost sound AmericanG.

Why, thankyou for your complement, kind sir... ;-)

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

In article ,
Baron wrote:

Usenet Inscribed thus:

Baron wrote:
Usenet Inscribed thus:
I've scanned and uploaded the diagram he
http://i49.tinypic.com/28r1thw.jpg
Find & check switch 6.
If that switch is OC the main motor will not run. The other side is
via the timer. 6th contact from left marked (1)

There is also a cutout marked 7/ that should be checked. It may be
a manual reset.

Just to get things straight: what kind of switch is this switch '6?
It's normally closed, yes? Do you think -- by it's position in the
diagram -- it's the flood protection switch?

Yes its normally closed.

Where would cutout 7/ be, physically? Is it on the pump itself?

Yes, probably, since its a thermal cutout. Looking at the diagram its
shown directly above the motor. Its normally closed.

Switch '6 also controls the things immediately to the right of the
main circulation pump, labelled :9, '5, and 59. These look like
solenoid-type thingies, the ones with "triangle propellers" look maybe
like valves. Are they solenoid type things?

9 & 59 are probably solenoid water valves. I'm not at all sure what 5
is.

The circle labelled '30
I'm pretty sure is the drain pump (in Europe apparently it's usual to
have two separate pumps). This pump still works.

It that case it rules out switch 6. Since if 6 was open the pump
wouldn't run.

What is your guess for the thing labelled )0 off contact 13 from
the left? It must be acting as some kind of sensor, I'm thinking, by
it's position on the right of the diagram.

I've checked for continuity and there's no breaks in the wires that
I can find. However, during operation of a dishwasher cycle, no
voltage is ever given (by the brand new replacement controller!) to
the main circulation pump, as measured with a multi-meter.
Therefore -- it looks to me -- like the controller is expecting a
signal to proceed, which it never receives.

One of those, possibly the one marked )0 is the timer drive motor.
366 could be the water level sensor.

What is the symbol marked 17&, over towards the right? It looks a
bit like a Christmas cracker, so I'm hoping it's some fusey cut-out
thing. I would dearly love to know its meaning.

I think +)7 is the heater and 17& the soap dispenser.

Having had a good look at the innards of my dishwasher, I'm not
intimidated by it anymore. They're really very straightforward
things.
I can feel it's not far from working. It's really frustrating right
now, but I now feel I *can* get it working again.

... and of course, if it stops me having to wash up by hand every
day, that would be WONDERFUL!!!

Regards,

Sandy

The basic operation is that of a rotary switch driven by a motor. Once
a program has been chosen, the switch drive motor normally runs
continuously. A solenoid is often used to cause the switch drive motor
to step the rotary switch on to the next position depending upon some
criteria being met. This could be :- Fill level, Temperature, Time.
Usually the fill level has to be reached and water shut off before the
main pump motor is allowed to start.

Often the main pump motor and heater are not allowed to be both switched
on at the same time. Then when water temperature has been reached the
soap dispenser is activated. Then a timed wash cycle commences. Water
is drained. Refilled and rinse aid injected and a further wash cycle
starts.

This is followed by another heat cycle designed to create a high
temperature, and short wash before fully emptying. This is designed to
dry the contents and leave a polish.

All the above will vary depending upon the chosen program and is not any
more than a general description of operation. Being on the spot and
able to see what wire goes to which component is a great
advantage. :-)

Is this indeed a rotary switch model, rather than one with all
electronic controls and a fancy touch panel? If it's the former, it
sounds possible to me that the rotary switch is at fault--either the
little timer motor for it isn't turning it (because of motor or gear
train failure), or some of the contacts are not operating properly. The
first failure mode could be tested by manually turning the switch by
small bits and seeing if the dishwasher goes through the proper stages
of washing that it's currently missing. The latter problem would
require a timing diagram of the switch to diagnose easily; there's a
chance there may be one pasted into the machine somewhere, or associated
with the schematic.

It does seem rather odd to me that, if it's a rotary switch model, the
various wires to the switch aren't shown on the schematic. On the other
hand, it is a slightly strange schematic to begin with, so I guess it
wouldn't be a complete shock.

--
Andrew Erickson

"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot
lose." -- Jim Elliot

On 22/01/2010 04:14, Andrew Erickson wrote:
In ,
wrote:

Usenet Inscribed thus:

Baron wrote:
Usenet Inscribed thus:
I've scanned and uploaded the diagram he
http://i49.tinypic.com/28r1thw.jpg
Find& check switch 6.
If that switch is OC the main motor will not run. The other side is
via the timer. 6th contact from left marked (1)

There is also a cutout marked 7/ that should be checked. It may be
a manual reset.

Just to get things straight: what kind of switch is this switch '6?
It's normally closed, yes? Do you think -- by it's position in the
diagram -- it's the flood protection switch?

Yes its normally closed.

Where would cutout 7/ be, physically? Is it on the pump itself?

Yes, probably, since its a thermal cutout. Looking at the diagram its
shown directly above the motor. Its normally closed.

Switch '6 also controls the things immediately to the right of the
main circulation pump, labelled :9, '5, and 59. These look like
solenoid-type thingies, the ones with "triangle propellers" look maybe
like valves. Are they solenoid type things?

9& 59 are probably solenoid water valves. I'm not at all sure what 5
is.

The circle labelled '30
I'm pretty sure is the drain pump (in Europe apparently it's usual to
have two separate pumps). This pump still works.

It that case it rules out switch 6. Since if 6 was open the pump
wouldn't run.

What is your guess for the thing labelled )0 off contact 13 from
the left? It must be acting as some kind of sensor, I'm thinking, by
it's position on the right of the diagram.

I've checked for continuity and there's no breaks in the wires that
I can find. However, during operation of a dishwasher cycle, no
voltage is ever given (by the brand new replacement controller!) to
the main circulation pump, as measured with a multi-meter.
Therefore -- it looks to me -- like the controller is expecting a
signal to proceed, which it never receives.

One of those, possibly the one marked )0 is the timer drive motor.
366 could be the water level sensor.

What is the symbol marked 17&, over towards the right? It looks a
bit like a Christmas cracker, so I'm hoping it's some fusey cut-out
thing. I would dearly love to know its meaning.

I think +)7 is the heater and 17& the soap dispenser.

Having had a good look at the innards of my dishwasher, I'm not
intimidated by it anymore. They're really very straightforward
things.
I can feel it's not far from working. It's really frustrating right
now, but I now feel I *can* get it working again.

... and of course, if it stops me having to wash up by hand every
day, that would be WONDERFUL!!!

Regards,

Sandy

The basic operation is that of a rotary switch driven by a motor. Once
a program has been chosen, the switch drive motor normally runs
continuously. A solenoid is often used to cause the switch drive motor
to step the rotary switch on to the next position depending upon some
criteria being met. This could be :- Fill level, Temperature, Time.
Usually the fill level has to be reached and water shut off before the
main pump motor is allowed to start.

Often the main pump motor and heater are not allowed to be both switched
on at the same time. Then when water temperature has been reached the
soap dispenser is activated. Then a timed wash cycle commences. Water
is drained. Refilled and rinse aid injected and a further wash cycle
starts.

This is followed by another heat cycle designed to create a high
temperature, and short wash before fully emptying. This is designed to
dry the contents and leave a polish.

All the above will vary depending upon the chosen program and is not any
more than a general description of operation. Being on the spot and
able to see what wire goes to which component is a great
advantage. :-)

Is this indeed a rotary switch model, rather than one with all
electronic controls and a fancy touch panel? If it's the former, it
sounds possible to me that the rotary switch is at fault--either the
little timer motor for it isn't turning it (because of motor or gear
train failure), or some of the contacts are not operating properly. The
first failure mode could be tested by manually turning the switch by
small bits and seeing if the dishwasher goes through the proper stages
of washing that it's currently missing. The latter problem would
require a timing diagram of the switch to diagnose easily; there's a
chance there may be one pasted into the machine somewhere, or associated
with the schematic.

It does seem rather odd to me that, if it's a rotary switch model, the
various wires to the switch aren't shown on the schematic. On the other
hand, it is a slightly strange schematic to begin with, so I guess it
wouldn't be a complete shock.


Couple of possibilities not so far mentioned I think. On one or two
models of d/w an open circuit heating element will prevent the main pump
motor from running. Also, failures of the wiring loom where it flexes as
it passes between the door and main body of the machine are common enough.

On most machines, clicking the timer switch on by hand should step the
machine through it`s program. usually starting with:- drain, fill, fill
+ main motor, drain, etc.

Ron(UK)

Hi!

*I'm pretty sure my dishwasher has just the one PCB.

Fair enough. I can't view your circuit diagram from where I am now,
but I will look at it as soon as time allows and see if I have any
further thoughts.

*And of course, drinking cups of tea and eating biscuits (cookies?).

That's always a good troubleshooting practice!

*...On the day the dishwasher went wonky, that morning we had
just had our electricity reconnected to the mains grid after a week
of being without electricity.

A-ha!

Now that's a good point to consider. When power is first restored,
it's not always stable. The voltage may be high, low or "wobbly".
That's hard on electrical equipment.

Since you mentioned a lightbulb failing and the line voltage being at
255 volts (instead of the more normal 240), it is obvious that your
line voltage was high. This puts stress on everything that is plugged
in and operating at the time. Simpler devices are likely to take it
better, at least to a point. (Had your lightbulb survived, it would
have been a good example of this theory.)

I'm afraid that it is likely your dishwasher was damaged and not just
put into a confused state. The damage probably took place within a few
minutes.

Since you've replaced the controller board, I am in agreement that you
need to check the sensors and actuators that the control board works
with to get the dishes washed. It's very possible that more damage is
lurking in the shadows.

One must consider that the power supply in the dishwasher may not have
been able to maintain proper voltage regulation, causing high or
incorrect voltages to be present in the unit. This could lead to
damaged sensors, solenoids or whatever else there is in the unit.
Careful testing of each part should be performed--hopefully the
schematic you have shows appropriate characteristics for each part.
Otherwise you will have to make some educated guesses and careful
examinations.

I'll try to get a look at the schematic you have posted and see if
that gives me any ideas.

William

In article , Usenet
writes

I would be grateful for anyone's experience and expertise: I don't
want to be defeated by this thing!

Terrible diagram. Can't think how that was meant to help.

Check switch 06 carefully. One side may be broken. WITH PLUG OUT!

There is some kind of fusible link (7A) above motor 630. Check that.

The switch &2 looks like it may be me kind of heat selector switch. Is
it?

Check the link 7). A fuse?

What's "0 DLQ%RDLG" ? A hybrid PCB potted in epoxy?

You said the dishwasher was cheap. Afraid you now know why.

Arçelik is a big factory in Turkey. Any "brand" of white goods you buy
in Europe now comes from there.

--
(\__/)
(='.'=) Bunny says Windows 7 is Vi$ta reloaded.
(")_(") http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/windows_7.png

In article , Usenet
writes

Not quite sure which 6 you mean, from this unix-like reply! Surely
not the double switch labelled 06 over on the far left.

Oh yus. Especially if you're in the habit (as I am) of opening the
machine mid-cycle to chuck something else in.

The machine filling, pausing, filling suggests it doesn't know where the
water level is.

--
(\__/)
(='.'=) Bunny says Windows 7 is Vi$ta reloaded.
(")_(") http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/windows_7.png

In article , Usenet
writes

Also, here's a picture of the one and only PCB in my Beko "DE 2541
FX" slimline dishwasher, at: http://i49.tinypic.com/30bn60i.jpg

(...Are the black and blue blocks on the left, in lieu of the relays?)

No, they form a mains conditioner circuit, to stop rubbish generated by
the motor(s) filtering back into the mains.

Switch '6 looks like some sort of breaker (thermal breaker?) Do triple
check that.

--
(\__/)
(='.'=) Bunny says Windows 7 is Vi$ta reloaded.
(")_(") http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/windows_7.png

Mike Tomlinson wrote:
You said the dishwasher was cheap. Afraid you now know why.

Arçelik is a big factory in Turkey. Any "brand" of white goods you buy
in Europe now comes from there.

Buying that dishwasher, we had in mind maintaining and repairing it
ourselves. It's actually just right for us for that reason. Very
simple, accessible, with standard parts at the right price. Ideally, we
would have got a Chinese one, if it was available.

Anyway, it turns out that the problem wasn't the dishwasher's fault
at all -- it was the self-tapping dishwasher "faucet" under the sink,
that got clogged with rusty stuff over the past few years. It was
barely a trickle! Turned off the mains, unscrewed it, cleaned it out
and put it back again. Full power again!

I agree that that circuit diagram is not very helpful. Apart from
everything being carefully scrambled and having no relationship to the
physical layout, I think it must be for the top-end Beko model. Several
features are missing from my bottom-of-the-range model. I discovered
(from Beko UK) that the Beko DE2541F slimline dishwasher model only has
a flow-meter for the water level control. That, and the flood
protection device, I suppose. The flow meter is a lovely elegant little
device, and you can hear it counting, by attaching an audible continuity
tester to two easily accessible contacts on the flow meter.

As of this evening, the water fills properly now.

I'm guessing now, but when the incoming water pressure was only at
a trickle, because the controller recognized that it was filling too
slowly, the machine went into an unusual mode: filling for 15 seconds
every five minutes, testing for the right water pressure. It never sent
any mains voltage to the main pump.

Now that the water pressure is back, the controller does send mains
voltage to the pump at the right moment. (It was *wonderful* at long
last, to see the voltmeter -- attached by insulated crocodile clips to
the motor leads -- jump from 0 to 240 volts!)

I *still* have a problem though! When the pump is meant to kick
in, it doesn't, it merely "hums". My guess is that a month of not
working, being tipped over on it's side, and having water drained from
it, etc, has seized up the pump.

Does anyone know... what do do you turn in the pump or induction
motor in an attempt to unstick it? Here's a very amateur picture of my
machine's pump:

http://i50.tinypic.com/2w6b58o.jpg

With kind regards,

Sandy

On Jan 29, 3:09*pm, Usenet wrote:

* * *I *still* have a problem though! *When the pump is meant to kick
in, it doesn't, it merely "hums". *My guess is that a month of not
working, being tipped over on it's side, and having water drained from
it, etc, has seized up the pump.

* * *Does anyone know... what do do you turn in the pump or induction
motor in an attempt to unstick it? *Here's a very amateur picture of my
machine's pump:

* * * * *http://i50.tinypic.com/2w6b58o.jpg

Make sure the pump CAN turn i.e. try to turn the impeller. There might
be a foreign object , something displaced from flipping the unit etc.
The crud in the water supply may be connected to recent freeze/ thaw.
Breaks loose all kinds of scale and rust.
Good luck

Some of the Pump motors have a slot on the back of the shaft, that you can
try turn (back and forth) with a screwdriver to free it up.

If it has a fan on the back, you can pull off the protective cover and try
turn the fan by hand (just don't undo the long screws that hold the motor
together!!!).

P

"malua mada!" wrote in message
...
On Jan 29, 3:09 pm, Usenet wrote:

I *still* have a problem though! When the pump is meant to kick
in, it doesn't, it merely "hums". My guess is that a month of not
working, being tipped over on it's side, and having water drained from
it, etc, has seized up the pump.

Does anyone know... what do do you turn in the pump or induction
motor in an attempt to unstick it? Here's a very amateur picture of my
machine's pump:

http://i50.tinypic.com/2w6b58o.jpg

Make sure the pump CAN turn i.e. try to turn the impeller. There might
be a foreign object , something displaced from flipping the unit etc.
The crud in the water supply may be connected to recent freeze/ thaw.
Breaks loose all kinds of scale and rust.
Good luck



--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

malua mada! wrote:
On Jan 29, 3:09 pm, Usenet wrote:

I *still* have a problem though! When the pump is meant to kick
in, it doesn't, it merely "hums". My guess is that a month of not
working, being tipped over on it's side, and having water drained from
it, etc, has seized up the pump.

Does anyone know... what do do you turn in the pump or induction
motor in an attempt to unstick it? Here's a very amateur picture of my
machine's pump:

http://i50.tinypic.com/2w6b58o.jpg

Make sure the pump CAN turn i.e. try to turn the impeller. There might
be a foreign object , something displaced from flipping the unit etc.
The crud in the water supply may be connected to recent freeze/ thaw.
Breaks loose all kinds of scale and rust.
Good luck

What a ******* pump I have installed in my machine! The plastic
pump "auricle" attached to the single-phase induction motor is designed
to snap into position -- at the factory -- with plastic "snappy"
fastenings. But it's also designed so you have to *break* the snappy
things, and hence the auricle, if you try and remove it from the motor.
And when the auricle is in place, you can't access all the screw/bolts
that hold the motor together. A ******* pump.

The cooling fan blades are located at the back end of the motor,
almost up against the back of the machine, where there's a metal plate
holding a concrete ingot counter-weight (for when the front door is
lowered), the inlet and outlet hoses, and the mains lead and
anti-interference filter device. However, without undoing *everything*
attached and entirely removing the back plate, one can unfasten the
plate's screws and then pull back on it enough to see the back of the
motor, and see the grey aluminium of the cooling blades at the back of
the rotor.

There are twelve blades on my cooling fan (I marked one with red
felt tip and counted). Using a *thin* wooden chopstick, I could push
the rotor one cooling blade at a time. It's quite stiff, certainly not
like a free spinning bicycle wheel, like I thought it might be. I must
have pushed the rotor completely around about 20 or 30 times by now, in
both directions. One direction *feels* slightly easier than the other,
but this may be because of the radial asymmetry of the blades.

Is this how it's meant to feel, when you push the cooling blades
around? The resistance is constant all the way around, so maybe this is
normal...

...All advice welcome!

Now I have to go do the washing up by hand, again...

Many thanks,

Sandy

(P.S. At least the concrete ingot isn't made of tungsten.)

Usenet wrote:
Is this how it's meant to feel, when you push the cooling blades
around? The resistance is constant all the way around, so maybe this is
normal...

...All advice welcome!

Dear Usenet,

The dishwasher is operating normally again!

I screwed the back plate back on, and connected the dishwasher up
again to the water input and output. I ran it on the 15 minute pre-wash
no heat cycle, fine. Then a 30 minute, 35 degree heater cycle with
three changes of water, fine. The rotating arms took a while to clear
themselves of little dried cloggy bits, but at the end they were going
round like they always have. Swishing again!

What a journey I feel I've been, through! It so happened that
there wasn't anything wrong with the dishwasher per se; the fault in my
case was the slowly gunked-up water supply all along. But it has been
incredibly worth it -- taking off the panels, seeing the workings,
testing with the multimeter, and looking over the whole works. Now the
dishwasher, washing machine, power wash, and eh even the power drill,
and jigsaw, and anything else, are not mysterious black boxes anymore!

-

A note about Haynes' "The Dishwasher Manual" by Graham Dixon:

This book leaves much to be desired. It is not up to the standard
of the world famous car manuals upon which Haynes' reputation rests.
OK, the Haynes label gave me the initial encouragement to make me think
I could repair my dishwasher, but beyond pictures of actual
sub-components (most of which come from Dixon's earlier "The Washing
Machine Manual"), the book hasn't been much help. More of a hindrance
really. To be honest, the book seems not even half finished. The index
of only several dozen entries doesn't fill a single page. Many of the
diagrams have no labels and are not given a reference number. Repeated
photographs of the same component, but with different comments, are
seemingly there to bemuse the reader and help pad out the book. There
are many infuriating chapters of one, or one and a half patronizing
pages. The flow charts (speaking as a programmer myself) -- which are
meant to help organize complexity -- are instead there to make the
simple seem more complex, are all badly titled, unlabelled, completely
moronic and waste yet more pages. And here's another what for: the
chapter on pumps and motors is all about the goddamed potted physics,
and the pros and cons of various approaches to motor design. No mention
of how easily they can seize up, or how to go about unsticking them.
There's a corporate engineering drawing of a "generic rotor" with
cooling blades floating in space, but without anything else, no context!
Where's the explanation on how to test if the motor's working, in
situ? Or about taking care when manipulating big hose clips, or
lubricating the inside lip of the hose with a smear of washing up liquid
when putting it back on, of NOT using grease, which will corrode the
rubber, or checking out the auricle's side exit first?

I hope someone in the near future writes a *real* Dishwasher Repair
and Maintenance Manual. These are, after all, increasingly the times
when we're going to badly need one.

With kind regards and best wishes to all,

Sandy